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Is VV Going to be Too Edgy?

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  • Is VV Going to be Too Edgy?

    Hey guys. So i've seen that criticism about this new edition of VTM. That they are trying too hard to be dark or edgy. And i'm lost because i don't know where is that coming from. I agree wholeheartedly with other criticism like they talking smack about nwod and how they hired insane criminal Zak Smith. But after many speeches about how they want to deal with real world conflicts and how they are mature. i've having trouble understanding where all that supposed edginess is coming from. Is it because of Martin Ericcson himself? I Know he's flamboyant and talks funny and etc... But he insists he's doing something mature and serious here. So why do you guys think new white wolf is gonna be all katanas and trenchcoats not serious stuff.

  • #2
    First, we should establish what "edgy" actually means, and that it is a good thing or bad, because I suspect it's differing a lot between individuals here.

    http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/edgy
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/edgy
    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/edgy

    So, to me, being edgy isn't a slur, but it could be pretentious, if taking too far. Of course, what considers "taking too far" is highly personal. To be honest, for a lot of people, playing vampires struggling for their dwindling humanity is already pretentious and edgy.

    For example, that they want to incorporate real-world phenomena (I suspect that's the main reason why people are crying "edgy") and "recent ones" too is too much for some people, but to me it isn't edgy in a bad way.

    Also, WoD was always edgy. It was "dark", it was "gothic", it was "punk", it was big into counterculture. It is already edgy and I love it for that.
    Last edited by PMárk; 05-17-2017, 06:15 PM.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by PMárk View Post
      First, we should establish what "edgy" actually means, and that it is a good thing or bad, because I suspect it's differing a lot between individuals here.
      When people say White Wolf is trying to be edgy, they often mean they trying to be shocking just for the sake of being shocking,Having gory imagery just for the sake of gorey imagery,having lots of swearing blood sex and gratuitious violence just for the sake of it. I've seen so many people worried about that and i don't know the basis of their concernsss

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
        When people say White Wolf is trying to be edgy, they often mean they trying to be shocking just for the sake of being shocking,Having gory imagery just for the sake of gorey imagery,having lots of swearing blood sex and gratuitious violence just for the sake of it. I've seen so many people worried about that and i don't know the basis of their concernsss
        Being shocking for just shock value, I suspect the biggest reason is the aforementioned plan for using recent events and how Martin talked about it and about using other controversial topics in the game. Some people didn't like that, for personal reasons, although I have no problems with it, I actually liked what he said about all of that.

        Also, some things, like hiring ZakS, the language and story of the VtM Prelude game and Martin's novella in the fiction anthology they (re)published lately. Those could be a worrying sign of them taking the route of "controversy, blood, gore and sex" just to be shocking. I could understand those concerns, although other things they did, like the LARPS and events organized are fairly encouraging and they met a wide approval, as far as I got it, so I reserve judgment for the final product.
        Last edited by PMárk; 05-17-2017, 06:27 PM.


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        • #5
          I personally don't care who works on it, it's going to be a lot of people and I separate art from the artist.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by BurritoMage View Post
            I personally don't care who works on it, it's going to be a lot of people and I separate art from the artist.
            Honestly, that's why I generally don't dig too deep into who are the artists IRL and who made what? I want to enjoy nice things and sometimes awful people are making nice things. Also, I don't want my involvement with persons to color my evaluation of a product.

            Also, yeah, it'll be a collaborative endeavor. Even if I'd have hate Martin for whatever reasons, I wouldn't write off V5 for just that.

            Just for the record, I don't think anyone in the WW team is an awful person. I don't know any of them personally and yes, Martin could be pretty theatrical, but some of the creative types aer like that. Overall, I don't have a bad impression about them, based on their talks and such.
            Last edited by PMárk; 05-17-2017, 07:00 PM.


            If nothing worked, then let's think!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by PMárk View Post

              Being shocking for just shock value, I suspect the biggest reason is the aforementioned plan for using recent events and how Martin talked about it and about using other controversial topics in the game. Some people didn't like that, for personal reasons, although I have no problems with it, I actually liked what he said about all of that.

              Also, some things, like hiring ZakS, the language and story of the VtM Prelude game and Martin's novella in the fiction anthology they (re)published lately. Those could be a worrying sign of them taking the route of "controversy, blood, gore and sex" just to be shocking. I could understand those concerns, although other things they did, like the LARPS and events organized are fairly encouraging and they met a wide approval, as far as I got it, so I reserve judgment for the final product.
              i too am reserving judgement for when the book comes. i don't anything about the preluides though,could it be they were too shocking?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                i don't anything about the preluides though,could it be they were too shocking?
                I think it's more like it pushed personal buttons in some people on top of (and in conjunction with) the whole ZakS debacle. I think they wouldn't do it the same way a second time.

                On the other hand, End of the Line, Convention of Thorns and now Enlightement in Blood was cherished and those were big "products", actually made/organized by them and I didn't heard from anyone that they were shocking just for shock value.


                If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                • #9
                  I expect the Vamprie flamewars to make the mage 2e to revised Flamewars look tame. Like the differences between Napoleonic warfare and ww2.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lian View Post
                    I expect the Vamprie flamewars to make the mage 2e to revised Flamewars look tame. Like the differences between Napoleonic warfare and ww2.
                    Fandom a can be quite aggressive

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                    • #11
                      Strangely enough, I find the VtM forum to be fairly polite.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                        Strangely enough, I find the VtM forum to be fairly polite.
                        Well the mods here do a pretty good job of keeping conversations civil.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                          Strangely enough, I find the VtM forum to be fairly polite.
                          My guess is, everyone who ought to be outraged already did and their outrage-o-meter just being depleted. It might refill later, but now I sense more ignoring and disinterest.

                          Edit:

                          Originally posted by BurritoMage View Post

                          Well the mods here do a pretty good job of keeping conversations civil.
                          Yeah, that one too. Kudos to them.


                          If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                          • #14
                            As part of the "3edgy5me" crowd, the issue is not one of degree, but of reason (or rather, the lack thereof). I've said before and I'll say again, I have no problem with "edginess" per se, I only take issue with it being for edginess' sake. Shock is perfectly fine when it's used for a purpose, but it's obnoxious when it's only used to be shocking.

                            Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                            i too am reserving judgement for when the book comes. i don't anything about the preluides though,could it be they were too shocking?
                            The two big issues most folks have taken with the preludes are A.) that they were co-written by Zak S, who has a history of stalking and harassing a lot of people including David Hill, and B.) the depiction of one of the characters, a trans woman who claims she feeds by calling uber, and if her driver is male, telling them she is trans and has not surgically transitioned (specifically saying "so I'm trans and I have, like, a cock"), offering him a handjob (which she claims they never refuse) and then kills and eats him after if she didn't like his reaction to her revelation. Oh, and she also happens to share the first name of a trans writer who Zak has clashed with in the past.

                            The issue here is not that the preludes are too edgy, it's that they are tastelessly and pointlessly edgy. And that pretty much seems to be exactly what Martin and co are going for. They gladly hired Zak despite being fully aware of the controversy surrounding him (possibly even due to it?) and tried to gaslight the fan community with a blog post on their website claiming that they were aware of the accusations against Zak and that there was no evidence to substantiate them. And in response to the criticism of the atrociously portrayed trans character, they basically just said "we think she's awesome." Which is pretty fucking gross, honestly.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                              Strangely enough, I find the VtM forum to be fairly polite.


                              VV hasn't been released yet?

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