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  • #46
    Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
    Interesting, I took no issue with it. I am a girl. I have a dick. I think it's important to be able to acknowledge that and discuss it openly, so as to help normalize it and dismantle the stigma against it. What I took issue with in Werewolf43's comment was the implication that media with trans characters is somehow inappropriate for children. That said, their kids, their choice, even if I disagree with that choice.
    I dunno, something about the comment felt pretty wrong to me. But as clarified, it's a language issue so all cool there. And yeah, the whole "not for MY kids" bit was also pretty teeth-grinding, but hey, I'm not going to ask if that's just some kind of language barrier and hope for the best. It is what it is, and nothing can really justify that to my eyes. But poor word choice can be forgiven.

    Gonna let that rest now.


    Writing up Clanbook: Aabbt

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    • #47
      Poor word choice, english at begginer level, especially times in language, shitty dictionary. Sometimes i cant find proper word like in ,,opressed" case, learned by reading most from rpg like ways for l5r and wod suplements. Sometimes unawaring i'm just a jerk. Thats all

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      • #48
        Originally posted by werewolf43 View Post
        My mom bought me Werewolf the Apocalypse at the age of 14 because I've been begging her to do so. I was amazed by Albrecht character in the comics - fallen garou hero - that was the main reason. Question is - would I buy WtA for my son/daughter if the main character would be a girl with d..k? No way. And I don't agree that WtA or Vampire is so mature. They want to make mature game, but in my opinion transsexual theme is no mature at all. It's just is.
        While I'm not going to do something silly like demand you go buy Exalted 3rd edition, but at least go look at the Exalted 3e promotional material and come back to this point after considering that there's a prominent trans character in Exalted 3e who is very much what most people looking for better representation are actually looking for instead of the idiocy that is Avery in the Prelude.

        ------

        Also... can we please not get into the "Christians are the new persecuted minority" thing? Please? The last time it did not end well. There's a lot of people on this forum who belong to groups that face active threats of violence and death from Christian identifying groups on this forum. Nothing good comes of trying to compare that to the waning cultural influence of overt Christian values in Europe.

        Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
        But wanst Gore a important part of the aesthetic since the beginning?
        Not really. The early WW stuff didn't avoid gore all together, but the height of gore in the WoD aesthetic was really during the start of the "playable antagonist" phase of 2e. As well, I don't mind gore in my horror at all. But it's empty visuals without something with substance to justify it in the narrative.

        Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
        Sorry if I missed the point on my last reply. Are you saying people would more accepting of new white wolf if they reached out more to people and explain their plans better?
        I believe so. Everything I've heard is that the people that talk to them generally feel better about things. To me this means that they're capable of engaging with people in a fashion that convinces others they're good stewards of the WoD IP. By leaving lots of groups out of their engagement efforts, they're not making those pitches to those groups; making those groups more accepting.

        I spent the first year after Paradox bought the WW IPs from CCP trying to be positive. I spent a lot of time here trying to cool threads down, trying to give the WWP team the benefit of the doubt, trying to put things in contexts that were more charitable, and so on. I had a few encouraging emails with Tobias even. But they kept saying/doing things that they're blind to the reactions here, because they're not here. They're not addressing our concerns because they're not listening to them, because they're not engaging with us (and we've been told too many times to email/etc. them, they're job is to outreach to us).

        Like, the Ed Kramer thing. I get why they had no clue about that when they reissued the anthology to promote Martin's short story. I can forgive that. They weren't in the US gaming convention scene in the mid-90s to know what was going on before Kramer got caught. They weren't paying attention to the extremely minor impact Ed Kramer's arrest and conviction had in the news outside of the east coast US fantasy fiction and gaming communities. But they're still silent about it. No apologies to Ed Kramer's victims and families. No token corporate gestures like donating the proceeds (which can't be all that significant with Paradox's money backing them) to charities for the victims of predators like Kramer. Just... silence. If they were paying any attention to just these forums, they could have easily removed the Ed Kramer issue from the list of things people are holding against them. But they aren't listening, so they aren't fixing, so people continue to view them poorly.

        So it isn't just explaining their plans. It's also figuring out what people outside the LARP (and from what I've heard a narrower group of the overall LARP scene as well) care about. They need to hear when something one of them says comes off say, "Fuck this part of our fanbase," instead of, "Yay this other part of our fanbase." And they only way to do that is to be out in more places.

        Originally posted by dasyrch View Post
        What I see is that WWP as a Swedish company has a progressive/liberal culture that maybe can shock more conservative people from other cultures. I mean, is it ok to rip people while in Crinos but is not ok a trans character?
        Except it's not really shocking conservatives in other cultures. It's pissing off progressives and liberals in other cultures.

        Again, I can understand that a group of Swedes might not be aware of this, but the Avery character is a stereotype in the US that transwomen have been killed because of. Nobody has died because of a werewolf. People have died because other people spread the belief that transwomen a secretly sexual predators out to corrupt men and children. A person in the US seriously tried to use, "I was so afraid when I found out she was a transwoman I had to kill her to protect myself," as a defense in court.

        Who do you think is shocked by the Avery character? Conservative bigots that think that transwomen can't be allowed in women's bathrooms out of fear of them committing sex crimes, or progressives that thought WWP was a progressive company but are putting out a transwomen character that kills men for voting for Trump as a validation of her gender identity?

        Also, it's not to say that US liberals and progressives don't deserve a good shock. The movie Get Out was fairly solidly aimed at white liberals that pat themselves on the back for not being racist while perpetuating racist systems, and it's a great movie for it.

        It seems that wanting to speak about more 'real' stuff is annoying people, I read a review about the Mage Prelude saying that if they wanted to know about the refugee crisis they would have watched a documentary about that. It looks very narrow minded and that all the game is about is ripping enemies apart as some sort of superheroes-that-drink-blood or d&d.
        Rather, more specifically, speaking about 'real' stuff is annoying people when it's handled poorly. This is nothing new. WOD:G is considered one of the worst WoD books ever for good reasons. Charnel Houses is considered one of the best. They both deal with 'real' stuff very directly.

        I (keeping in mind I have not played because I will not buy, but I've read significant portions and reviews) see the issues with the Mage Prelude as not being, "OMG, how dare they talk about the refugee crisis!" but much more, "Oh, good people/the Traditions are pro-refugee, bad people/the Technocracy are anti-refugee, complex real world multifaceted issue has been reduced to a simple narrative binary and ignores the complexity of the Mage factions in the process; this is lame."

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        • #49
          I've been skimming exalted v3. It is too big for now for me too read cause i have other book waiting so maby You could write more about that character. And I'm done about religion. But some threats from christian groups are ... Well shocking for me. Shitty situation.

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          • #50
            To the Avery argument: call me callous, ignorant, or whatever you want, but I just don't believe, on principle in exclusively positive representation, yes, even for marginalized groups. Sorry, but not sorry.

            I understand all the issues around it. I understand all the concerns all of you wrote about. I empathize with your situation, truly. I agree with the importance of positive representation for marginalized groups. It's just, there is a very, very fine line between "not strengthening harmful stereotypes" and "positive discrimination in representation" and I don't like the latter, because it's not good for any kind of art and ultimately it's just as much a lie as overly negative representation is. I won't go into a flamewar about it, I know a lot of you won't agree with it and that's fine.

            I'm not saying this to defend the Avery character and the writing of the Prelude. Actually, I agree that it wasn't really good, it could and should be much better than that and it was just a wrong step to put her in that form into the first significant non-LARP product. However I won't laying all of that at the feet of Martin or any of them, since I don't know anything about how the approving process went and ultimately, neither of them wrote the piece.

            Basically, I'm giving them slack for two reason still:

            1. They have a small crew and doing a lot of things. I don't expect perfect handling and top-notch sensitivity, research and high-end nuance in all endeavors from them at this point. After a few years, when they're settled? That will be a much more serious question. They're seem spending most of their time organizing their big LARP events and developing V5 and i suspect a lot less energy went into the things that caused most of outrage.

            2. There were a lot of things among what they said that I liked and the reports from the games and events they actually made/attended were overwhelmingly positive. Right now, that evens out the fuck ups, so I'm waiting for more info and ultimately for V5 before writing them off.

            However, I'm agreeing that they don't seem to spending much energy on communicating outside specific groups and events and that is error on their side. I'm willing to give them a slack still at this point, because the aforementioned lack of resources, but I expect it to change sooner than later, otherwise they'd just cut themselves off from a significant part of the fanbase and honestly, I don't think they're that stupid. Maybe they will launch their own forums, I don't know, but they need to do something.

            Also-also, going back to the topic of edgyness: I think what is considered "edgyness for edgyness's sake" and what is "edgyness for a 'proper' reason/making a statement, etc." is highly personal.

            Again, I'm not saying everything they did is great . They had some unnecessary fuck-ups and some statements I didn't like. It's just, at this point, I don't see the the sky falling, because their edgyness cut all the strings upholding it.
            Last edited by PMárk; 05-18-2017, 04:35 PM.


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            • #51
              It's entirely possible to responsibly portray characters of marginalized groups in a negative light. And I don't think the line is anywhere near as thin as you make it out to be. Look at Magneto. He's Jewish and a villain, without being a harmful stereotype of Jewish people or ridiculed for being Jewish. Boom, done, responsible negative representation.

              By all means, write trans serial killers, just don't make their MO tricking men into sexual encounters. Write vampires who are horrible people and also part of oppressed groups, not vampires who are horrible people because they are part of oppressed groups. The prince in my current vampire games is a trans man and an irredeemable bastard, but that's not problematic because his negative portrayal doesn't revolve around his gender.

              Re: edginess, I didn't say it had to be for a proper reason. It should just be for a reason other than "cause it'd be shocking". Bring on the edge, but do so with intentionality.
              Last edited by Charlaquin; 05-18-2017, 03:52 PM.


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              • #52
                I think Heavy Arms makes some strong points, especially in regards to how LARP-heavy nWW seems.

                But I wanted to reply to Charlaquin's post in p.2, because it kinda rankled me a bit.

                I
                Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                The fact that she offers the driver sexual favors and then murders the driver if she didn't like his answers to her social justice questions presents her as both incredibly promiscuous and sexually predatory, both of which are negative stereotypes about trans women, committed to their views.
                'Promiscuous' and 'sexually predatory' are a common vampire trope, however. Why does positive representation have to supercede core themes of the genre?

                Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                The fact that she claims her victims never refuse the offer of sexual favors is unrealistic, and suggests that either she is lying to make herself seem more sexually appealing than she is, or that she is using her vampire powers to take advantage of the men she is preying on. Neither option is positive trans representation, and the latter further doubles down on the stereotype of trans women as sexual predators.
                Again, I'd argue that either sounds plausible, and in the later case, using vampire powers to prey on their victims is the norm. Have we reached the point where the undead should be written to serve as positive role models? Because the character is transgendered, she should be treated as some sort of sacred cow?

                Look, I haven't read played/read We Eat Blood, and I'm not going to defend it's author's behavior, but on principle, why shouldn't this character recieve the same treatment as other monsters of the genre, if it's attempt is to portray vampires as such? A character should be written to be interesting, not to be either a positive or negative representation. Whether or not that was successfully done, I couldn't say.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Blitzburger View Post
                  'Promiscuous' and 'sexually predatory' are a common vampire trope, however. Why does positive representation have to supercede core themes of the genre?

                  Again, I'd argue that either sounds plausible, and in the later case, using vampire powers to prey on their victims is the norm. Have we reached the point where the undead should be written to serve as positive role models? Because the character is transgendered, she should be treated as some sort of sacred cow?
                  See my post above. It is entirely possible to portray trans characters in a negative light, even in keeping with vampire's themes, without reinforcing harmful stereotypes.

                  Originally posted by Blitzburger View Post
                  Look, I haven't read played/read We Eat Blood, and I'm not going to defend it's author's behavior, but on principle, why shouldn't this character recieve the same treatment as other monsters of the genre, if it's attempt is to portray vampires as such?
                  Because characters don't exist in a vacuum.
                  "Trans women are sexual predators out to trick straight cis men into sex" is a real belief held by real people that actually gets people killed every day. As such, it is irresponsible to perpetuate that belief.

                  Originally posted by Blitzburger View Post
                  A character should be written to be interesting, not to be either a positive or negative representation. Whether or not that was successfully done, I couldn't say.
                  Writing characters to be interesting and writing characters responsibly are not mutually exclusive goals.


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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by werewolf43 View Post
                    I've been skimming exalted v3. It is too big for now for me too read cause i have other book waiting so maby You could write more about that character.
                    The character in question is Prince Diamond. He's the cover character for the standard book, and the signature Eclipse. He's the most moral of the group - which isn't saying much - as he adheres to a very strict code of ethics based on his culture. This is also a culture that considers sword duels over the smallest insults perfectly normal behavior. So he's got a very strong sense of justice, but has been raised to enforce it with swift and brutal efficiency. He's also a sad character because he chose to take the guilt of one of his brothers on his own shoulders to be exiled from his people to save his brother, setting him on a quest to redeem the sins he's accepted by venturing out into the world and bringing justice with him.

                    What's important about this? Where does his lack of a penis come in? Nowhere. Being a transman is an important part of the character (he'd very likely challenge you to a duel to the death if you called him a women), but his character isn't about being a token trans character (even if he was designed to make the Circle more diverse). He's a completely compelling flawed hero without being trans, and being trans adds depth and character to him.

                    Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                    To the Avery argument: call me callous, ignorant, or whatever you want, but I just don't believe, on principle in exclusively positive representation, yes, even for marginalized groups.
                    Great. Nobody is asking for "exclusively positive representation." People are asking for sensitivity regarding real world stereotypes. "Mary Sue" token minority characters are insulting too. But make a character that's flawed in compelling ways, not just playing on stereotypes.

                    It's just, there is a very, very fine line between "not strengthening harmful stereotypes" and "positive discrimination in representation" and I don't like the latter, because it's not good for any kind of art and ultimately it's just as much a lie as overly negative representation is.
                    No, there isn't. There's a giant clear line between the two.

                    Where's the "fine line" between:

                    "Avram is a Ventrue banker that's notoriously greedy, stingy with helping other vampires, gleefully has a feeding restriction of only taking the blood of Christian babies, but you're supposed to think he's an awesome character because he uses his influence in the Jewish community to create conspiracies to attack the enemies of the Camarilla."

                    And

                    "Baruch is a Ventrue banker who's lost his faith and replaced with with ruthless dedication to his own power and maintaining Camarilla control. Only able to feed on ritually impure Jews, he's used Dominate to get back at the religion that's failed him by bending a local Rabbi to his whims and to provide him his herd. He's needlessly abrasive to vampires that think of maintaining humanity as anything more than a practical matter, but every Neonate knows his money and influence in the financial sector is invaluable towards establishing a stable situation after they can no longer maintain any illusions that they're still alive."

                    Neither of these are "exclusively positive" Jewish vampires. One's a mess of harmful stereotypes. One's a fully realized character who's faith while alive matters to his motivations, but is nastiness is because he's a vampire; you could adapt this to being a Christian/Christian trappings and it would change things, but it wouldn't feel improbable.

                    1. They have a small crew and doing a lot of things. I don't expect perfect handling and top-notch sensitivity, research and high-end nuance in all endeavors from them at this point. After a few years, when they're settled? That will be a much more serious question. They're seem spending most of their time organizing their big LARP events and developing V5 and i suspect a lot less energy went into the things that caused most of outrage.
                    They're a year and a half old, with an ever growing staff, and a lot of these mistakes are problems because they're not responding to people saying, "Whoa guys, not cool." rather than them screwing up in the first place. Like I said. Them screwing up the Ed Kramer thing didn't surprise me. What bothers me is that they still have done jack shit about it.

                    Forgiving some starting mistakes is easy... if there's an effort to correct them. If they continue to just sweep it under the rug and pretend it wasn't a thing, people will continue to be upset. 2, 3, 5 more year? Apologizing for promoting the work of a man that sexually abused children does not take years to do. It takes a well written blog post and hopefully some sign of contrition (again, something like donating the sales of the reissue to charities). A few days of work to correct a PR mess is well worth it.

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                    • #55
                      Whats Baruch view on the Shoa? Even if he is only Ancilla he would have lost many members of his family there. Would you just ignore it? Because i would argue that that character can not be fully realized without even mentioning it.

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                      • #56
                        There is a difference in being edgy and trying to incite a reaction. And that is where the new stuff is failing, more than anything else. For example, Avery (the trans vampire mentioned above) kills Trump supporters. Not 'politicians she doesn't like' or 'conservative assholes', just outright saying she kills those who voted for Trump. That to me is inciting a kneejerk reaction for the sake of it, without allowing the players to fill in the blanks. Also, boy does it date the game. With WtA, it is similar, Fenrir and Furies not caring about sjw or such things.

                        With the WtA example, there is a worse aspect to it. If the Second Impegrium rumours are correct, Garou Nation has apparently decided that a wholesale culling of humanity's weakest is the way to go. This, at least to me, flies in the face of the themes of WtA and a lot of the tribes in the setting. First of all, the Impegrium happened during the very first cities of humanity, back when garou didn't even really have tribes or even the Litany. Second, garou are not vampires and live very short lives thanks to the war against the Wyrm. Most of the Nation are homid as well, grown up among other human children of their generation.

                        Even if these kids embrace the life of their tribe and a more brutal culture, they still have learned about genocides and such at school. Not to mention the history of their own tribe. That is another thing that would stop a second Impegrium, the tribes have changed through the ages. Get of Fenris might respect strength, but their perception of what makes someone strong is more broad now. In addition, the tribe has had to deal with a faction that supported genocide of the 'wrong' kind of people, and that alone should make them think twice about Impegrium 2.0.


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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                          There is a difference in being edgy and trying to incite a reaction. And that is where the new stuff is failing, more than anything else. For example, Avery (the trans vampire mentioned above) kills Trump supporters. Not 'politicians she doesn't like' or 'conservative assholes', just outright saying she kills those who voted for Trump. That to me is inciting a kneejerk reaction for the sake of it, without allowing the players to fill in the blanks. Also, boy does it date the game. With WtA, it is similar, Fenrir and Furies not caring about sjw or such things.

                          With the WtA example, there is a worse aspect to it. If the Second Impegrium rumours are correct, Garou Nation has apparently decided that a wholesale culling of humanity's weakest is the way to go. This, at least to me, flies in the face of the themes of WtA and a lot of the tribes in the setting. First of all, the Impegrium happened during the very first cities of humanity, back when garou didn't even really have tribes or even the Litany. Second, garou are not vampires and live very short lives thanks to the war against the Wyrm. Most of the Nation are homid as well, grown up among other human children of their generation.

                          Even if these kids embrace the life of their tribe and a more brutal culture, they still have learned about genocides and such at school. Not to mention the history of their own tribe. That is another thing that would stop a second Impegrium, the tribes have changed through the ages. Get of Fenris might respect strength, but their perception of what makes someone strong is more broad now. In addition, the tribe has had to deal with a faction that supported genocide of the 'wrong' kind of people, and that alone should make them think twice about Impegrium 2.0.
                          Yeah,that avery seems like a really badly written character. i can see why some people lost faith after that.
                          About the second impergiun,i saw Shane Defreest (a WW employer) explaining the impergiun is something only aa small part of the garou want. He also said zak smith is not involved in any future projects.
                          Last edited by Nicolas Milioni; 05-18-2017, 05:53 PM.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                            Yeah,that avery seems like a really badly written character. i can see why some people lost faith after that.
                            Abpit the second impergiun,i saw Shane Defreest (a WW employer) explaining the impergiun is something only aa small part of the garou want. He also said zak smith is not involved in any future projects.
                            And, like, one poorly written character wouldn't ruin the company's image for me. But the fact that they failed to accept critique of the character, and in fact defended her, is a bad sign. And one more in a long series of PR misteps that they've failed to adequately address, and instead tried to defend. Apparently folks they've talked to have had their concerns alleviated, but I'm not seeing that in their public actions and I only have so much benefit of the doubt to give. I've gotten to the point now where I've lost hope for a V5 that would get me to give cWoD another try.


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                            • #59
                              The Second Imperium is thematically a bad idea because the majority of WtA players in my experience want to play furry superheroes, not a fuzzy SS. In addition, Garou are outnumbered 1:500,000, so they have a vested reason to maintain the Veil. I would think that the Garou Nation would stomp hard on anyone who tried a Second Imperium to avoid the collapse of the Veil.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                                The Second Imperium is thematically a bad idea because the majority of WtA players in my experience want to play furry superheroes, not a fuzzy SS. In addition, Garou are outnumbered 1:500,000, so they have a vested reason to maintain the Veil. I would think that the Garou Nation would stomp hard on anyone who tried a Second Imperium to avoid the collapse of the Veil.
                                i don't think they're turning Apocalypse in a game about culling mankind. I think the second impergium is part of the metaplot,but that dosnt mean is something the player characters would have to participate in

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