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  • #76
    Originally posted by BurritoMage View Post
    At conventions would you be more likely to check out a room full of people dressed up and playing the same game or a group of people sitting at a table amongst a sea of people sitting at tables?
    I suspect the majority of tabletop gamers don't frequent conventions. I've never been to one myself.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by loomer View Post

      I suspect the majority of tabletop gamers don't frequent conventions. I've never been to one myself.
      There are more table top games at gen con then live action ones, however the live action ones have better ticket sales.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by BurritoMage View Post

        There are more table top games at gen con then live action ones, however the live action ones have better ticket sales.
        That doesn't really go to what I said, which is that the majority of tabletop gamers don't go to conventions in my opinion - which is, of course, just an opinion unless someone wants to dig up attendance data for a nebulous, broad, and ill-represented community. The proportion of tabletop games at one specific con vs live action games at one specific con only speaks to two things, which is the ease of running one and not the other in a limited timespan with players of unknown ability and sensibility, and perhaps the relative popularity of the two options among a subset of not even the gaming community, but specifically the gencon population pool - and even there, while many TTers have little to no interest in LARP, many LARPers have an interest in TT so it isn't as clearcut as 66% prefer TT to LARP.

        The reason I suspect most tabletop gamers do not frequent conventions is that conventions have three big challenges. Time, money, and accessibility. If you're working 9-to-5, 6 days a week? Most conventions are then either not an option or eating into unpaid or paid leave you might need for things like a family vacation. If you don't have the money to a, buy tickets, b, buy transportation, and c, buy accomodation (if you don't have friends in the area, etc, which for a lot of people is a reality when we're talking the big cons. Going to GenCon for me for instance would require me to rent a place as well as travel overseas etc etc), then you're up shit's creek without a paddle. Accessibility is the other, where there are people who either don't know the cons exist, don't want to go, or can't go because of travel restrictions, health problems, etcetera. As tabletop gaming is spread across more or less the entire face of the earth in one form or another these days, the pool of potential people who fall into this last category is huge, especially in combination with the first two. The dude making very little money in Swaziland can't come to Gencon even if he's spent more time running a dog-eared local translation of red box DnD he got from uncle than he has sleeping, but he is no less a part of the broader tabletop gaming community and population - though admittedly, he's probably representative of a very small part of it.

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        • #79
          Ok.............

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          • #80
            Well. maby I'll just post excamples of things that are too edgy for me, it is more readable then my previous posts - rape, child abuse. Two thing I won't swallow, rest is more or less acceptable, cause it's well ... Words of Darkness.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post

              So wait, it is problematic for a trans character to be using basic Disciplines? Disciplines aren't employed so that vampires can act as meta-narrative moral exemplars; they are used so the undead can get blood meals.
              No. It's problematic to present a trans character that's supposed to be a kick ass positive portrayal as someone that uses Disciplines for the express purpose of getting unwilling men to engage with her in sexual situations to illicit answers to her "purity tests" which if you get right she they sexually assaults you for your being a good person, and if you get wrong she kills you.

              She doesn't need to mind-whammy men into sexual encounters to feed off of them. She does that because she gets off on it. And that includes doing it to the men she considers acceptable and are spared from her serial killing. Hell, if she's killing anywhere close to as frequently as she claims, she doesn't need to be feeding on the "good" guys at all. Which means it's even worse (assuming she's not just a liar), because she's frequently using Disciplines to remove men's ability to consent, just to give them a blowjob when she doesn't need the blood at all.

              There's no feeding/logical reason, at all, for her to have to sexually assault people via mind powers. Between guys that would just be down for a BJ and her sneaking in some blood via the Kiss to cover it up, and draining the men she kills, she'd be stocked with blood pretty much all the time. The only reasons that make any sort of sense is that she's a horrible person and is doing it for her own vanity (she can't take the rejection), or something like that.

              -----------

              To the whole LARP vs TT and cons thing:

              It's so individual con dependent. I've been to cons were LARPs are the big thing and people barely TT. I've been to cons where TT is the big thing and there's one LARP that's poorly attended. I've been to ones where it's pretty even.

              The one con I've been doing yearly these days is very much a TT oriented one (though it's not a gamer specific con). This actually surprised the hell out of a few of us that tried to get LARPs going there the first few years because the general nature of the con and the crowd seemed way more LARP friendly. But the LARPs kept bombing, and the TT room was constantly full. So we stopped trying to make LARPs happen. It's a bunch of factors (how the con is run, who goes, what games people like etc.), but in the end, that's just how that con is.

              However, in my highly anecdotal experience, TT players are less likely to be con goers than LARP players. It's just the nature of the styles. LARPing is already more like a con for most people. It's less frequent, more players, bigger events, etc. Where TT is something you do at home with a few friends.

              One small con I used to go to was based out of a nearby college and was formed around their VtM LARP. The con was basically a big excuse to do a yearly major LARP event where alumni could come back and play their elder PCs to shake things up from the monthly normal LARPing of the undergrads playing the lower ranked vampires in the city.

              I've never seen a TT focused gaming group bother with that.

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              • #82
                The majority of the cons that I have been to have had minor LARP participation. In my experience, LARP groups tend to be highly insular groups that make new people feel unwelcome through their inane internal politics and which alienate associated TT gaming groups (even the TT groups that help them get venues for $15 per weekend for the entire group of 40 people (yes, that comes from personal experience)). I have seen TT groups bend over backwards to help LARP groups, and I have seen them paid back with condescension from the LARP groups. The fact that WWP wants to prioritize LARP over TT sticks in my craw because I know that the majority of the sales and revenue come from TT players rather than from LARP players (meaning that TT players end up subsidizing LARP players).

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by loomer View Post
                  So long as they continue to employ Zak S, V^2 will be too edgy for me even if it turns into a game of magical friendship where Malkavians spread joy and happiness in the form of Toki Wartooth-esque song numbers while Gangrel avenge Bambi's murder (which... I might actually play? I'm not sure, I've confused myself with this example.)

                  I think that's an important distinction, to be honest. I can forgive attempts by a company that skew into 'too much edge' if they're made with good intent or out of ignorance. If, however, the company seems to be embracing a 'so edgy you guys' philosophy - and the handling of the whole Zak S debacle is exactly that in my eyes when coupled with a few other things like Martin's story and the Closet Incident - then I really can't be bothered. For a good example of this, Beast's initial version nearly did the same thing for me with OPP but a decently worded email from RichT and the attempt at making it not, you know, awful pushed the company back over the line because they were responsive without being dismissive, recognized an actual problem, and took steps to fix it. I don't think it worked, but one is good customer service and the other isn't. One shows that the company doesn't want to cause harm, the other suggests they are at best ambivalent towards doing so.

                  If a game is a little too edgy, whatever. I can sand down the points until I'm happy with them, if I want to use it. If a company is too edgy or full of terrible people, though, I'm not going to give them my money regardless of the setting they put out. It's a rule I also apply to local businesses - if I know a store has knowingly employed someone who's done some horrible shit and isn't sorry for it, I'm going to spend my money elsewhere. And it's this more than 'oh no the setting edge!' that I think is where more of the lost profits are going to come from: boycotts over 'don't be awful', not 'how dare you talk about 9/11 or terrorism'.
                  I understand, I was sorely disappointed about them hiring zak . According to one employer he'll not be involved anymore.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                    So wait, it is problematic for a trans character to be using basic Disciplines?
                    No, it's problematic for a trans character to indiscriminately rape random men.

                    Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post
                    Disciplines aren't employed so that vampires can act as meta-narrative moral exemplars; they are used so the undead can get blood meals.
                    And in this case it's not being employed to get her blood meals. She could easily just eat her uber drivers without jacking them off first. She apparently uses Presence to get them to let her sexually assault them for... I don't know, she likes doing it, I guess? There inlies the problem. See Heavy Arms' post for a more in-depth answer.


                    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                    • #85
                      It's a little like, and god preserve me here because I just know this going to get quoted out of context at some point, creating an uneducated, smelly African-American character who goes around exclusively feeding off 'pure' 'virginal' white women with extreme violence, and doing so in the middle of an era of active lynchings like say the 1920s. In theory, none of those elements have to be racist - just like 'evil transwoman' and 'transwoman who is a sexual predator' aren't inherently transphobic or transmisogynistic concepts, because being black or trans doesn't preclude you from being violent or smelly or a rapist or whatever - but the broader cultural context makes it not only racist as shit, but outright irresponsible to go there. The same is true of 'transwoman who tricks/traps men into unwanted sexual contact then kills them', because that is almost literally one of the most pernicious and current stereotypes out there.

                      We live in a world where 'trans panic' is a mitigating defence to actual murder. That's a true fact, and you can look it up, and almost universally where it's invoked it boils down to 'We were having sex/she was coming on to me/etc and then I found out she was trans so I flipped out and killed her'. It doesn't get people off the hook usually, but it does get them disgustingly light sentences for what boils down to 'I wasn't too careful where I put my dick so I beat someone to death'. That's without getting into the recent hubbub over bathroom rights and all the rest.

                      Write trans characters. Write evil trans characters. But for fuck's sake, don't write characters that could pretty much word for word (just drop the vampire part in this case) be part of the actual rhetoric of hatespeech going around. That should be obvious. And saying it isn't, despite people's constant attempts to say otherwise in this thread and others, going for some kind of 'positive representation only!!1!!' benchmark. It's a basic benchmark of 'try not to write actual hate speech' - and I'm reasonably sure that we can all agree that as a benchmark, that's a pretty low damn bar to set!




                      Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                      I understand, I was sorely disappointed about them hiring zak . According to one employer he'll not be involved anymore.
                      That's good to hear, but I need to see it from an official source before I consider lifting my boycott.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms
                        No. It's problematic to present a trans character that's supposed to be a kick ass positive portrayal as someone that uses Disciplines for the express purpose of getting unwilling men to engage with her in sexual situations to illicit answers to her "purity tests" which if you get right she they sexually assaults you for your being a good person, and if you get wrong she kills you.

                        She doesn't need to mind-whammy men into sexual encounters to feed off of them. She does that because she gets off on it. And that includes doing it to the men she considers acceptable and are spared from her serial killing. Hell, if she's killing anywhere close to as frequently as she claims, she doesn't need to be feeding on the "good" guys at all. Which means it's even worse (assuming she's not just a liar), because she's frequently using Disciplines to remove men's ability to consent, just to give them a blowjob when she doesn't need the blood at all.

                        There's no feeding/logical reason, at all, for her to have to sexually assault people via mind powers. Between guys that would just be down for a BJ and her sneaking in some blood via the Kiss to cover it up, and draining the men she kills, she'd be stocked with blood pretty much all the time. The only reasons that make any sort of sense is that she's a horrible person and is doing it for her own vanity (she can't take the rejection), or something like that.
                        Agreed.

                        You could make a functional Avery-like character being a trans sexual predator that hates men...if you were to make sure that she's a villanous character that doesn't represent trans people in general. Being a vampire isn't enough, being actually evil in fiction it's more than what you are or what you do.

                        Writters have narrative tools to show an action as good or evil, that go beyond merely describing the action.. You can see this in fantasy and fiction very often:
                        When a good paladin kills an orc, when the good US spy kills the bad nazi spy...the action it's deemed correct and somewhat validated by the world arround the character, the "hero" makes the kill and everyone it's happy.
                        When a trully evil character does a kill, however, you're clear, thanks to the narrative, that his actions are reprehensible, you see how horrifying are his actions, you grow a hate on the character, you want the hero to appear and kill him.
                        A Paladin can make a literal orc genoside look better than an evil wizard killing a single woman! And all of this is possible because the magic of narrative.

                        If Avery was portrayed in a very negative light...making it crystal clear, with the power of narrative, that this is not how trans people act or should act, then it wouldn't be such a bad representation (if at all). There's words you should use to do this, and trans isn't the first one that should be used: Expressions like "serial killer", "rapist" should come to describe her character earlier than "trans", even if her motives are ultimately guided by her bad experiences as a trans person...

                        Also, ideally, if you want your artwork to talk about sexuality, there should positive representation of trans too, otherwise it's incomplete (and ultimately wrong and damaging). A perfectly socialy acceptable ending of Avery arc would be to be killed by the Inquisition, at the hands of a trans hunter that was able to track her due her serial killer attitude.

                        But nothing of this passed trough the minds of the people that were writting Avery's character. No, I'm sure she was supposed to be 'fun' in her edginess. I'm sure that what she does it's never trully questioned, because hey, she's a punk vampire and does what she wants...yeah! . I'm sure she was supposed to be cool because she's trans and kills pig man.
                        We're not even exploring how her lack of humanity makes her a monster in comparisson with other trans people, let's the readers think about that to justify our work...meanwhile let's show her killing Trump supporters because that's totally what an inhuman monster should be doing and it's totally not a twisted attempt to appear as "progressive people"

                        In other words, they tried to tackle a mature theme that's very sensitive issue and can cost the lives of people...and did a pretty lame work that's damaging to the people they represented. But instead of admiting that their work was far worse than Captain Planet trying to explain drugs to kids, they defend it and say that the people that attack their work can't accept seeing trans in media...now, that's an epic failure.

                        Originally posted by loomer
                        Write trans characters. Write evil trans characters. But for fuck's sake, don't write characters that could pretty much word for word (just drop the vampire part in this case) be part of the actual rhetoric of hatespeech going around. That should be obvious. And saying it isn't, despite people's constant attempts to say otherwise in this thread and others, going for some kind of 'positive representation only!!1!!' benchmark. It's a basic benchmark of 'try not to write actual hate speech' - and I'm reasonably sure that we can all agree that as a benchmark, that's a pretty low damn bar to set!
                        And yeah, this. Avery it's like saying the Syndicate it's a Jewish conspiracy that controls the world to beneffit Jews in detriment to everyone else's. What's shocking it's that the authors aren't doing this because they're facist conservative people that want to harm trans people 'cus they're unnatural. They did it to be progressist.
                        Last edited by Aleph; 05-19-2017, 07:39 PM.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Charlaquin View Post
                          No, it's problematic for a trans character to indiscriminately rape random men.


                          And in this case it's not being employed to get her blood meals. She could easily just eat her uber drivers without jacking them off first. She apparently uses Presence to get them to let her sexually assault them for... I don't know, she likes doing it, I guess? There inlies the problem. See Heavy Arms' post for a more in-depth answer.
                          Somehow I missed that we were talking about Avery specifically; I thought we were just discussing trans characters using Presence in generalized terms. Yeah, I gotcha now.

                          That being said, most of vampire is one big predatory rape metaphor; the crazy trans serial killer angle has been done to death (and needs to die), but it still seems weird to complain specifically about sexual assault in a game that features non-consent as a central (if quasi-metaphorical) pillar.
                          Last edited by The Laughing Stranger; 05-19-2017, 11:47 AM.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by The Laughing Stranger View Post

                            Somehow I missed that we were talking about Avery specifically; I thought we were just discussing trans characters using Presence in generalized terms. Yeah, I gotcha now.

                            That being said, most of vampire is one big predatory rape metaphor; the crazy trans serial killer angle has been done to death (and needs to die), but it still seems weird to complain specifically about sexual assault in a game that features non-consent as a central (if quasi-metaphorical) pillar.
                            I'm not complaining specifically about sexual assault, I'm complaining about a trans character being depicted as using her gender to trick men into unwanted sexual encounters. Again, characters don't exist in a vacuum, and this depiction is very close to a real-life stereotype of trans women that is regularly used to justify murdering us.


                            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              In most cases I see people were saying edgy in the sense of taking every piece to the extreme. Overusing and/or misusing the shocking value and adult subjects it’s a very bad approach.

                              So far, the new White Wolf has been making things like US comic book authors, dealing with mature subjects on their stories in an immature way, I don't read comic books, although, I read lists of "mature/shocking" moments made by comic book fans and they all were extreme resolutions of things that could be easily achieve by other means, but, sex and/or extreme violence had to be part of those moments. Side note, now some talked about X-Men, it’s curious the “good” mutants fight to keep the system and status quo by protecting those who reject them and they stop any attempt made by the “bad” mutants to change things for the mutants.

                              VTM Prelude was edgy in a bad way, it has several moments of unnecessary sex, gore and scenes which tried to shock, but, in the end, they just feel silly and the reaction of the characters to those events doesn't help either and those happen one after the other, the gore is constant that it easily lost any impact. At least in that story, once a person is embraced it means they've already turned into a degenerated person from the very beginning:

                              (SPOILERS) The ex was embraced by a Nosferatu? They’ll have vampire sex just right after that, she only needed to ask. The same Nosferatu exhumed her dead husband to embrace him and failed in the process? No problem, at least she was able to reanimate his genitals somehow and that was enough and all she cared for. One character doesn't want to drink blood for several days? She's going to eat her own leg, instead, even if she’s not a Nagaraja and that wouldn’t stop her hunger for blood). Now, that's not a problem of those ideas offending me, they don't. Also, there’s no average character or acts on this story, all of them went to the extremes.

                              MTA Refuge was better (although, it doesn't make a good work in immersing you in the lore, all the characters have no time to explain anything), although, the sex scene was uncalled and forced, the classic moment when a film just adds sex scenes. On the other hand, they don’t seem to know how to be subtle as they don’t know how to give a reason and make it impactful to what the characters are doing, they were blatant with that blog post within the story and that’s not going to be well received, if some people don’t agree with their views, so a good intention and attempt to make things better it's going to fail.

                              The introductory story in the revised edition is way better than any shocking thing that tried VTM Prelude, it has an interesting character that brings a lot of intensity to his narration, the recent story about the Baali in Lore of the Bloodlines is scary (psychological horror). Meanwhile, VTM Prelude has none of those things.

                              In particular, I don't care about who's the author, my only concern about that was if that's affecting the promotion of WoD.

                              I can understand those who are offended by the possible use of recent real life events from the world that happened close to them, but, at the same time, they don't seem to be concerned if somebody wants to write about other regions away from them, where human violence is constant and keeps happening since decades ago.
                              Last edited by NEN; 05-19-2017, 06:04 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by NEN View Post
                                In most cases I see people were saying edgy in the sense of taking every piece to the extreme. Overusing and/or misusing the shocking value and adult subjects it’s a very bad approach.

                                So far, the new White Wolf has been making things like US comic book authors, dealing with mature subjects on their stories in an immature way, I don't read comic books, although, I read lists of "mature/shocking" moments made by comic book fans and they all were extreme resolutions of things that could be easily achieve by other means, but, sex and/or extreme violence had to be part of those moments. Side note, now some talked about X-Men, it’s curious the “good” mutants fight to keep the system and status quo by protecting those who reject them and they stop any attempt made by the “bad” mutants to change things for the mutants.

                                VTM Prelude was edgy in a bad way, it has several moments of unnecessary sex, gore and scenes which tried to shock, but, in the end, they just feel silly and the reaction of the characters to those events doesn't help either and those happen one after the other, the gore is constant that it easily lost any impact. At least in that story, once a person is embraced it means they've already turned into a degenerated person from the very beginning:

                                (SPOILERS) The ex was embraced by a Nosferatu? They’ll have vampire sex just right after that, she only needed to ask. The same Nosferatu exhumed her dead husband to embrace him and failed in the process? No problem, at least she was able to reanimate his genitals somehow and that was enough and all she cared for. One character doesn't want to drink blood for several days? She's going to eat her own leg, instead, even if she’s not a Nagaraja and that wouldn’t stop her hunger for blood). Now, that's not a problem of those ideas offending me, they don't. Also, there’s no average character or acts on this story, all of them went to the extremes.

                                MTA Refuge was better (although, it doesn't make a good work in immersing you in the lore, all the characters have no time to explain anything), although, the sex scene was uncalled and forced, the classic moment when a film just adds sex scenes. On the other hand, they don’t seem to know how to be subtle as they don’t know how to give a reason and make it impactful to what the characters are doing, they were blatant with that blog post within the story and that’s not going to be well received, if some people don’t agree with their views, so a good intention and attempt to make things better it's going to fail.

                                The introductory story in the revised edition is way better than any shocking thing that tried VTM Prelude, it has an interesting character that brings a lot of intensity to his narration, the recent story about the Baali in Lore of the Bloodlines is scary (psychological horror). Meanwhile, VTM Prelude has none of those things.

                                In particular, I don't care about who's the author, my only concern about that was if that's affecting the promotion of WoD.

                                I can understand those who are offended by the possible use of recent real life events from the world that happened close to them, but, at the same time, they don't seem to be concerned if somebody wants to write about other regions away from them, where human violence is constant and keeps happening since decades ago.

                                In particular, I don't care about who's the author, my only concern about that was if that's affecting the promotion of WoD.

                                I can understand those who are offended by the possible use of recent real life events from the world that happened close to them, but, at the same time, they don't seem to be concerned if somebody wants to write about other regions away from them, where human violence is constant and keeps happening since decades ago.
                                god,that prelude seems worse and worse everytime someones tell me about it.

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