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Hard time tyring to fit Demon: The Fallen into the WoD

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  • Hard time tyring to fit Demon: The Fallen into the WoD

    As this is my first post, first of all,a hearty hello to all of you! (ノ^∇^)

    I really don't want to shittalk about Demon, but as I found out about it, I felt very repelled. It basically (as it seemed to me) admitted that the bible has a point, the christian god has to be real and demons are fallen servants of god. Although I know of the writers tendency to ignore existing canon (and the cynical way the community deals with it *g*) it seemed like too much of a stretch, especially since Mage, Werwolf and even Vampire pretty much contradict the existence of a christian god.

    Even Vampire, the with the whole Cain thing seemingly most abrahamitic - friendly game, has at least, as far as I understood the Book of Nod, clear indications that the Cain was cursed by god story is just that, a story. Lilith comes across as a mage, maybe even one of the Wyck (along with a pet theory of mine that cain could just be the first marauder).

    But what I would like to hear, or much rather discuss, is how you manage to fit Demon into your campaign, as ist seems to have some fans in the community. Do you cut away the whole God thing, make it a misconception among the demons themselves or do you try to somehow make the metaphysical triad coexist with god?

  • #2
    Demon is Paradoxical. The corebook both seemed like the most supportive of a unified gameline, and in other areas purposely narrowing the possibilities. Like it was brilliant how they decided in the Primordial first days of the World Creation had multiple layers of Existence. This was great and could support all the gamelines origins. But then they went out of their way to deny Umbral Spirits, and only tied in Vampire, and some Mage.

    You can reconcile this by the possible implication that Demons are suffering certain gaps of knowledge, like for instance Lucifer specifically at one point had the entire memory of the house of Devils under his command and if wanted he could have altered or cut some things. Also Angels could have not encountered all the layers of reality and missed things like the Fae, or Hsien. People have argued that the Malhim were actually Werewolves, though I point out they could have also have been the Wan Xian. People argued that Gaia is a Seraphim of the house of the wild, but I'm not fully convinced on that.

    They even went out of their way to say Werewolves only enter the Underworld/Shadowlands, and the Umbra Doesn't exist. This is a mistake in my mind they should have the Umbra as a Mystery to Demons, seeing as how they point out the Earthbound have stumbled upon it, and they acknowledge Baba Yaga performing magics that allow an Earthbound to exist materialized without an anchor.

    I do like the Noddist Lore pointing out that Caine wasn't necessarily cursed by Bible God, and he could possibly have been just cursed by his Awakened Father, or Hell just a God, Incarnae existed back then, and Helios could have cursed him, or Jehovah was just a God.

    Demon does at least point out the Judeochristian god and history of creation was not happening exactly as the bible said. Like for instance a curious tidbit was Caine and Abel were actually the last Children of Adam and Eve rather then there first children. And Caine Slew Abel long after Mankind spread, and the Angels turned a lot of attention away from Fighting the Rebels to help curse Caine, or at least observe the events. The Slaying of Abel seemed to alter the World.

    For me I recommend going with the Fallen actually were only Privy to a portion of layers of Creation, and thus it explains their ignorance of Animistic Truths. I am also fond of the Idea that the Creator/God of the Fallen shattered into the Wyld/Weaver/Wyrm, and possibly the slaying of Abel was the Turning point of the Wyrm corrupting from Balance. Lucifer was shocked when he talked with a Shih, and the Monk pointed out that God may have essentially broke when he touched Creation to curse the Fallen, and that explains there not being direct records of contact with God after this.

    And the Mystery of Human Souls and Death is even a Mystery to the House of the Angels of Death, they did not know where souls went after they died, so they created the Underworld, and started the titles of Charon, and Nudri/Nudriel.


    • #3
      The World of Darkness does have roots in the Abrahamic religions. Demon has links with both Vampire and Wraith, which in turn fueled Mummy. The Ministers from Hunter are the Ebon Dragon and the Scarlet Queen, whose real identities are the last two angels on Earth. The latter of the two is Ziana, the Seraph of the Cycle and lord of the Sixth House, and is also the World Tree, which is Gaia. Mages just do their own thing.

      Also, all of the above is either outright false, the details are wrong or the truth is more nunaced and/or complex.

      Personally, I take Demon as is and the story of Caine being cursed by God as true. But for the rest I leave things spotty just to make it all possible. And I also consider Lucifer's statement regarding why he rebelled to be true.


      • #4
        As a main player of mage, I personally like the concept that everything could be true as long as enough "idiots" believe in it *g*. It managed to give every religion and philosophy a place in the world, without having unsolvable contradictions. Of course, as most of the supernaturals stem from European legends, there are heavy influences from christianity.

        To me, at least it fitted into the whole "no one truly knows what's true and not" theme that is also deeply present in Vampire and Werewolf. A reason or the reason why I don't like giving one religion an "edge in being true" over another like Demon seems to do.

        Eldagusto A really sophisticated explanation that actually manages to fit with the rest. If the war between the angels happened in a time where the worlds were still connected and the gauntlet non existent, it could explain all those layers of existence and some of the misconceptions the Demons have as (former) spirits with limited understanding of the world.

        This also allows for a multitude of explanation of what they are (being banned servants of a mighty incarna, with memories faded by time and twisted by human beliefs, or Luzifer). Thank you for that.


        • #5
          Since I am a fan of WtA, KotE, and CtD, DtF grates on me like nails on chalkboard. I have squared the circle though and, while I have shared it previously, I will share it now. The Demons that I refer to are the 'Demons' of DtF and not the Demons of the Deep Umbra (MtAs, VtM, and WtF) or the Demons of the 1,000 Hells (CtD, KotE, MtAs, WtA, and WtA).

          I consider the Demons of DtF to be the remnants High Umbra spirits who were tossed into Oblivion by the Gods of the High Umbra, digested by Grandmother, and what She could not digest was shat out into the Abyss of DtF. These traumatized fragments of High Umbra spirits were influenced by the beliefs of Mortals and grew powerful as they fused with the indigestible fragments of the Plasmids and Wraiths shat out by Grandmother into the Abyss of DtF. While dangerous and powerful after thousands of years of melding with the fragments shat by Grandmother, they are delusional because their memories are artificial constructs woven from Mortal beliefs, and their ignorance comes from the ignorance of Mortals.


          • #6
            Think of the Universe as a Tree. The branches above are the future the roots that spread out below are the past, and the trunk is the present. The closer you get to the present the fewer options there are the further back you go the more contradictory pasts that can occur. Each of them is true for the present that exists even if they contradict each other. This is the nice version.

            Option 2: Mages are right. Demons litterally feed on human belief so of course their memories are created to feed into this.

            Option 3: Fairies are right, Demons are what it looks like to be the closest Prodigal race to Kithain proper they've just trapped themselves in the story of "god"

            Option 4: Everyone is wrong. Its like the old story about the blind Men and the Elephant. Each Gameline gives a piece of the truth but being as actual true of existence is beyond the capacity of any person at this stage of existence(blind) it does not give a whole or complete explanation for all things. History is especially bad when most of it is secret recordings and faulty memories.


            • #7
              I've always liked the Demons' multi-layered origin story as a neat way to incorporate any splat that you want in a way that, in a sense, makes each one still on some level "correct". Obviously, it's not the origin story that I'd go with if I were running a straightforward Mage or Werewolf game, but as a crossover-friendly patchwork idea, it works about as well as any other.

              Gavriel gives the example of the literal existence of Adam and Eve on one level, humans evolving from primates on the other. But really, any origin story that you like, be it actual religion or another splat, or even Exalted, could work as one of these layers. A Storyteller could easily make a timeline and equate specific events from each - the Primordial War to the Weaver trapping the Wyrm to the Elohim rebellion/God corrupting Creation and so on.

              In a way, it reminds me of the Crisis of Infinite Earths event in DC Comics in the 1980s. You start with the idea of multiple Earths, a cataclysm happens that essentially consolidates everything into one, but it's not clean. You still end up with inconsistencies and glips. Power Girl and Supergirl end up co-existing, despite being alternate versions of the same character. Demons are, basically, one of those glips. They're from a very specific fragment of their multi-layered cosmos. The Triat then is a remnant of a different fragment. Mages' Avatars could be a third (if you decide to go with that whole Sidereal Exalted = Avatars notion from that one piece of fluff fiction). It gives a Storyteller a way to put a crossover game together without necessarily downplaying one splat's fundamental concepts in favor of another.

              But for Storytellers who don't like the Abrahamic aspects at all, there is another option: Demons are completely insane. They've spent millennia/eons (depending on your preferred cosmology) trapped in an Underworld prison. The only reasons that the player characters are sane at all is because after they escaped from the Abyss, they merged with humans and incorporated human memories and experiences. That's basically what the Torment stat represents.

              So who's to say that Gavriel's origin story came from Gavriel? He was an insane disembodied creature who possessed a preacher's troubled son. Maybe that's where the origin story came from: at heart, Noah was a Christian, so in the merging, Gavriel adopted Noah's Christian belief (with a few quirks). It might well be that the Demons who remain in the Abyss or the Earthbound that are already on Earth have a very different version of events. For that matter, who's to say that a Demon possessing a host from a non-Abrahamic religion would have the same version of events either.

              Maybe they are corrupted Wyld or Weaver spirits who were imprisoned by the Wyrm. Or they're umbral spirits who ended up cast down into the Underworld by their old masters. Or they're long lost True Fae or Tuatha de Danaan that ended up cast down by their brethren. (I don't know enough about Kindred of the East to offer a version for them).

              Just because the Demons THINK they remember one version doesn't mean that's what actually happened.


              • #8
                Originally posted by Queen Nihil View Post
                As a main player of mage, I personally like the concept that everything could be true as long as enough "idiots" believe in it *g*. It managed to give every religion and philosophy a place in the world, without having unsolvable contradictions. Of course, as most of the supernaturals stem from European legends, there are heavy influences from christianity.

                To me, at least it fitted into the whole "no one truly knows what's true and not" theme that is also deeply present in Vampire and Werewolf. A reason or the reason why I don't like giving one religion an "edge in being true" over another like Demon seems to do.
                The "no one really knows" bit is not really a part of Werewolf. It doesn't question the animistic spiritual underpinnings of its own setting, and for good reason, since it's generally considered poor practice in construction to tear up your foundation when you're building.


                • #9
                  I think that werewolfs, or fera in general, are just more religious about it. Sure, much of what is said is true, but no one truly knows if the wyrm has gone mad, maybe it stills just does what it does, it's just desperate because the weaver made it impossible for him do destroy things the old fashioned way, so he corrupts the shit out of all, trying to do his work. No one really knows how to *deal* with the apocalypse, let alone what it means.

                  Also, if you look in to the other changing breeds, everyone tells a little different story. The bastet have their own version of the triad, the Ratkin think that the Weaver is the problem and so on


                  • #10
                    But no one disagrees among the Fera that Gaia exists.


                    • #11
                      Well that is borderline nitpicking Aya *g*. I know that the theme isn't as strong in Werewolf as it is in VtM and MtA, but it's nonetheless there and if you would play a Bastet, Corax, or Stargazer/Children of Gaia Campagin, you could implement this as well. As I said, they are just more religious about it and even though they believe their legends, much *actual* knowledge about the triad and incarnae isn't there. But I get your point


                      • #12
                        But you can meet Gaia, the Triat, the Celestines, and the Incarna in person in WtA, so there is no question about their existence because you can directly witness their glory if you are foolish enough.


                        • #13
                          I'd actually qualify Demon as more Gnostic than Christian (or Jewish). The Truth is far stranger than commonly believed, and the Fallen are like the Archons from Kult having gone rogue to pursue their own interests apart from that of the Demiurge.

                          Before they Fell, the Sebettu operated on a level of existence beyond that of mortals, spirits and other beings, effectively in a strange quantum state where the cat is both dead and alive at the same time. Christian cosmology is just one way of interpreting that reality, and one that is most innately accessible to a Western audience. A Demon/KotE crossover (or one about the Fallen in India) would've probably presented things differently. And I'm a little disappointed that no one ever tried to do such a thing.

                          What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                          Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)


                          • #14
                            Aya Tari I thik we misunderstood each other. I don't mean that their existence is questionable but rather their exact nature. What if the Triad is a combination 2 of the metaphysical trinity, did the triad dissolve into lesser aspects, is the wyrm really mad? Things like this, not the whole picture. It doesn't allways have to be the question of what is existing as far mor why is it existing


                            • #15
                              It's probably fair to note that the "no one knows what's true or not" does apply to Demon as well, even if you take their origin story at face value. The face value origin story for Demon does assume (at least on one layer of reality) that God exists, that demons and angels exist, and that Adam/Eve/Cain/Abel all existed as per the Biblical stories.

                              But there are a lot of conflicting ideas as to what that actually means. Especially when it comes to the exact nature of the Rebellion.

                              I don't know how familiar you are with the details of Demon's backstory, but a very quick summary: the Elohim (Angels/Demons) were God's instrument in creating reality. They were given two orders: to love mankind and to not reveal themselves. One angel, named Ahrimal, ends up getting a premonition of a very nasty catastrophe befalling the humans and comes to believe that they have to disobey one of God's commands to follow the other, basically to reveal themselves to the humans in order to save them. Lucifer, and a good chunk of the Elohim, agree with this interpretation and end up materializing in front of the humans and giving them gifts and knowledge. Long story short, as a result of God's punishment, the subsequent war, and so on, humanity does end up suffering the very catastrophe that the Demons had been trying to prevent.

                              IF you decide to take that version of events as accurate though, there are still a lot of questions. Many Fallen, for example, wonder if this wasn't the plan all along. Did Lucifer decide to lead the rebellion or was he ordered to do so? (A question of particular note since Lucifer alone was not condemned to the Abyss like his followers.) Why didn't God tell them that their attempts to stop the catastrophe would actually start the war? Why did the Abyss fracture? Where did God and the loyalist Angels go?

                              If it was a plan, what was the point? If it wasn't a plan, what the heck is going on? There is a specific faction of Fallen (the Cryptics), who are devoted to trying to find these answers. Others don't really care.

                              Heck, even Demonic possession raises some interesting questions, as some of the tie in fiction seems to imply that, unlike what most Fallen believe, the soul that they supplant might well remain in the body in some form or another. (You can also play with the question of what IS a soul? If the demon has truly merged with the host to the point where the host's memories, personality, and even morality in some notable cases has outright supplanted the demon's, then can we really be sure that the HUMAN is the one who's gone?)

                              In a way, it's very like Werewolf. There is no doubt among Werewolves that the Wyrm/Weaver/Wyld exists. There is no doubt among the Fallen that God/Angels/Eden exists. But a Storyteller can go in a lot of different directions as to what that actually means.
                              Last edited by kalinara; 06-02-2017, 04:14 PM.