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Hard time tyring to fit Demon: The Fallen into the WoD

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  • #61
    My interpretation is mage centric. But in essence the good referred to in vampire and demon is a powerful mage. They used prime 9 or 10 to create the world mucked around in it for a while trying to set things up. Then left. To go do something else.

    Why can demons and vampires and whatever do things mages can't? Well because an archmaster of some alien equivalent to prime told paradox to shut up and sit down in his world.

    Mages are essentially an accident in this world view, the created picking up the tools of the creator. Ascension is gaining the ability to leave and enter the higher tellurian that is more energy rich and would otherwise destroy the mage.

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    • #62
      Mind you, Demon's Mythology is its mythology.

      You wouldn't want to go saying Gaia is just a big Defiler would you?


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      • #63
        If you keep it broad and rather vague (as in 'guardians of humanity went rogue and were cursed by some supreme being for their sins') you can actually find quite a bit of broad consensus across the settings (Vampire might be easiest since it takes the same 'Christian-centric' view of things, followed by Mage and werewolf is the hardest, but its not impossible) I think the biggest problem is that because Demon was rushed and not as fully fleshed out as some settings (and a niche setting to boot) it's harder to see all the little connections and parallels (but they exist all the same if you look.)

        One thing to remember is that Supreme Beings by default (nevermind high end godlike entities) can and ought to be inscrutable and defy logic from a limited, human perspective. Human nature will always try to ascribe human logic/motives to the divine but that's more a failing of humanity than of divinity. In other words, just because it doesn't make sense to us doesn't mean its actually wrong (and in terms of 'strict' canon that literally is what canon can/should mean - its true because canon says it is, not because it makes any personal sense to us, which is more 'headcanon')

        One interesting take for the Werewolf perspective is that trinities aren't all that uncommon in real world religions. Christianity has the Holy Trinity doctrine after all even if that isn't universally embraced even if they are 'corrupted' or misunderstood (its not the first time one religion accuses another of 'getting it wrong' either...) But you don't really even have to get too far into that when it comes to DtF because the cosmolgy was set up as multi-dimensional/layered 'realities' where multiple similar (but still different in key ways) 'truths' could exist simultaneously. Its a bit like the cosmology of the Dark Tower series by Stephen King, in fact.

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        • #64
          Personally, I would be interested in hearing about or discussing potential alternatives to the Judeo-Christian narrative for the Fallen, those that might've ended up in Indian hosts for example, mentioned by No One of Consequence way back. On a related notes, what elements of the Fallen narrative might you consider "necessary" to depict regardless of the cultural or mythological context of their human hosts, and the blend of memories and beliefs getting intermingled with their own? Off the top of my head, the predominant things seem to be 1) a special relationship with humanity, 2) some kind of divine conflict over the fate of humanity, and 3) those who end up becoming the Fallen lose that conflict and end up imprisoned in the Abyss for millennia.

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          • #65
            The use of characters and concepts familiar to me did a lot to make D:tF accessible to me, but I'd love to see this done by someone who's very grounded in another faith tradition. Off the top of my head, I'd be fascinated to see how compatible a rewrite inspired by Zoroastrian theology would be with the game's essential backstory and themes.

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            • #66
              I'm not really an expert on Hinduism, but I think you could probably do something interesting with Indian Demons as the Danava.

              My grasp of Buddhism is shaky at the moment, but the Asura might work for East Asia.

              There's probably a number of interesting angles for Mesoamerican (Mayan, Aztec, and others) as well.
              Last edited by No One of Consequence; 07-13-2021, 10:24 PM.


              What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
              Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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              • #67
                I used to just replace Hsien with the Fallen, but nowadays use these guys instead for explaining (Northeast Asian) Fallen;

                https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/108_Stars_of_Destiny

                I mean, demonic overlords banished by the ruler of heaven, reborn in human bodies. It clicks.


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                • #68
                  Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
                  My grasp of Buddhism is shaky at the moment, but the Asura might work for East Asia.
                  Asura don’t have the “fall from grace” theme AFAIK. The various demons/monster-kings (what Japanese would call the Maou, just as they’d call the 108 Stars above) from Xi You Ji may be better, because most of them are banished gods/beasts from Heaven, and that their rampages are heavily implied to be trials placed by the Buddha.


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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
                    I have never understood the appeal of DtF myself, it ranks at the bottom of the oWoD setting for me. My preference comes in the following order: WtA > VtM/KotE/MtR > CtD > MtAs > WtO > HtR > Orpheus > DtF. If I want to play monstrous spirits that control human bodies, I will play KotE.

                    This is an awesome ranking!

                    If I ranked it, accounting for the gamelines that are the most compatible with each other for a "unified WoD" universe and having the least bit of lore blips that may monkey-wrench an attempt for a unified WoD, I'd rank it by:

                    MtAs > WtA > WtO > KotE/HtR > MtR > CtD > VTM > Orpheus > DtF


                    MtAs
                    Mage at the very first, because it has the most dynamic and flexible explanation for things, and steps on the least amount of toes. It also is responsible for adequately explaining most deities and how their influence can wax and wane on Earth, but they don't just disappear; they remain in the High Umbra where they plot among one another, trying to regain their lost influences. Even still however, there is no unified explained creator of the Universe and does not shoehorn.

                    WtA
                    Werewolf, by chronological stints alone, has the oldest active splat in the form of the Mokole. It is the earliest supernatural splat active during the Mesozoic Era on Earth, giving us a peer that the Middle-Umbra in some capacity was active for that far back. WtA, to go back to the general discussion, also does not step on much toes either, but gives a framework for a lot of things (KotE, CtD, WtO, MtAs, etc) that in the future will work off of it. Mage especially, if your character is a Spirit focused Mage, gains a lot to work with from WtA material and some ideas to knowledge on. KotE was very much influenced by Werewolf and worked off a lot that went on with the Fera in general.

                    WtO
                    Wraith introduces a whole new aspect to the Umbra never seen before; the Low Umbra or the "Underworld". It is my favorite gameline and the beauty of it, is that it does not shoehorn and true point of view construed by humans or the general living world. Some aspects of thought are still prescient in Wraith, but in general it is entirely its own agnostic realm of an afterlife. From there the formerly living, Wraiths, have to make-what-they-can-make from it and try to survive. On top of that, they have to ward off the inner parts of them they are connected to Oblivion, or else perish.. or become something else entirely not them. Wraith was an amazing balance of being self-contained, but also have the capability of being compatible with practically almost all the splats.

                    KotE & HtR
                    Kindred of the East was very much a loving hodgepodge of many of the previous games before it. It was deeply connected to the Middle Umbra through the 1000 Hells, was connected to the Low Umbra if the Wan-Kuei was Yin aspected, or connected to the High Umbra if Yang aspected. The lore of KotE also went out of its way to acknowledge and incorporate other splats into its basic backstory, albeit in the unreliable lens of the Wan-Kuei/Kuei-Jin. Hunter on the surface seems entirely different and disconnected from KotE, but is connected to KotE through its various supplement books. Two Angels from the Celestial Bureaucracy are also the ones responsible for them becoming Imbued, which many have theorized is the idealized state of the Wan-Kuei before their corruption by the Yama Kings.

                    MtR
                    Mummy is linked to many of the above splats, and especially Wraith, but I'm not that familiar with Mummy despite reading it multiple times. I keep forgetting about it.

                    CtD
                    Changeling always confused me on what aspect of the Umbra it operated in. I always thought the High Umbra, until I realized that the Dreaming is its own thing entirely. Not bad at all, but it still can be connected to a wider WoD universe, just in its own realm of things.

                    VTM
                    VTM, the flagship of WoD, is marred by the fact that from its focal-point, is explicitly tied to a biblical figure that does not bode well for a unified cosmology. Some say that Caine is just apocryphal and could any other thing, but Caine is confirmed to be the "First Vampire". He's essentially the main character of the VTM; but he's to OP to use in any real interesting way in the plot. He's the reason why Vampires have generations and why Thinbloods are a thing (and the writers having to make up increasing goalposts to make them viable the play or have any interest surrounding them).

                    With VTM also following the creationist framework of the bible, it completely ignores the fact that Caine could not be Middle-Eastern/West Asian, but probably someone from East Africa as that would be the most-likely place for the first murder to take place.Many people hint that the First and Second Cities could have been actually located in East Africa, but that tidbit is decidedly false because now from the Beckoning, we know that the First and Second Cities HAS to be in the Middle-East of somesort.

                    Also with VTM accepting Caine as part of its lore, it also directly conflicts with WtA through the fact of the Mokole. VTM is creationist, while WtA at least acknowledges some aspects of evolutionary development since it places the Mokole during the Mesozoic Era. In the WtA line of things, it would mean that humans actually went through normal evolution. In the VTM line of things, humans are just created by the Abrahamic God and all humans somehow all stem from just Adam and Eve (completely ignoring the fact that inbreeding would probably kill off humanity to begin with and Caine wouldn't even be able to make the First or Second Cities). People would probably just chalk it to *shudders* "Multilayer Reality" (a concept from a game where the main splats, Demons, can't even access the Middle or High Umbras no less)... but it still leaves much to be desired and leaves a big plothole, which is why VTM is ranked so low.

                    VTM in general, being the first of WoD, does not bode well to the other games; who in contrast, could make things more compatible among each other taking ideas and working off each other.

                    Orpheus
                    Orpheus was an attempt... to make Wraith, more shoehorn-style involved out of the Underworld and into the physical past-the-Shroud side of things. Tried to make it more like somesort of weird Technocracy-lite thing, where you make yourself dead in cryostasis to do things in the Shadowlands. It made actual Wraiths a sideshow. Made Spectres outside the Underworld.. for whatever reason, to build these Hives all over the place the militaries of world aren't dealing with, but Orpheus conveniently is. It brought little to no new information about the various Dark Kingdoms/polities. It also personified Oblivion with that "Grandmaw" entity.. in general, it didn't really tie-in into anything else really.

                    DtF
                    My opinions and rants about DtF are already well known. DtF broke a lot of stuff, then tried to just it behind the "Multilayer Reality" bit, despite not even once even touching on anything involved with the Middle and High Umbra at all... the very places you think would and should have the most stuff regarding creation of the grander WoD universe of things. To make matters worse, DtF ignored a lot of things, but directly went with messing other splats negatively like fudging things from Wraith; a game setting that was supposed to be about an agnostic take on the Underworld. DtF only concretely connected with VtM, but for the wrong reasons of reinforcing the Abrahamic stuff of VtM. It didn't really connect with anything else. DtF's general lore can be dropped safely for anyone attempting to unify WoD, as it impacts almost nothing.


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                    • #70
                      I include the lore of DtF in with the whole Caine storyline from VtM. I made the creation of the Garden of Eden at 14,000 BCE, the Fall and the destruction of Eden at 12,000 BCE, the Great Flood at 10,000 BCE and the destruction of Babel and the final battle between the Fallen and the Heavenly Host around 7000 BCE (the beginning of the Neolithic Era). In my version, God did not create Earth, just gathered a bunch of humans together, stuck them in an artificial paradise called Eden and appointed Adam as their leader. God is a patriarchal entity and is not the same as the One, the nonbinary being that really created the whole WoD. I don’t think my timeline directly contradicts anything in canon, but again this is just my personal timeline. YMMV. If any of you guys have any suggestions I’d love to hear them.
                      Last edited by Penelope; 07-17-2021, 05:38 PM.

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                      • #71
                        I am personally a really huge fan of DtF, and really love its lore. I really do appreciate the multiple layers cosmology because it doesn't really take much work to extrapolate and add new things to it since you only really have to work out how it is currently manifesting.
                        I sometimes like to think of it a bit like the World Serpent from Elder Scrolls. Other worlds existed prior to the World Of Darkness, where Heavenly Daddio (a personal joke name for God) spun the universe out of itself after fighting in a pre-universal conflict (possibly from another universe) and the Elohim are not created by Him but instead his lesser soul hierarchy with Lucifer being His central soul who used the pure creation and chaos of His Self to weave together tapestries, different groups creating different pieces with their own aesthetics and preferences. However Lucifer's personal work became Eden, and as Heavenly Daddio's most powerful son, his became the central core from which the other were attached, thus the layers were formed- each layer adding new meanings, symbols and aesthetics to the whole, which He was proud of.
                        Then, as planned by Heavenly Daddio, the creation of humans was the result of little pieces of each Elohim being used as the ingredients of the proto-human, which was then filled with the love of Him and all His children, granting a divine soul, which was Adam in the central tapestry, which then was refracted through the other tapestries based on their own aesthetics and meanings.
                        Everything that happened in Eden (the central pole of reality) would ripple and refract through the others creating different events based on the same ideas.
                        When Arhiman cast his gaze out he was unaware that Heavenly Daddio had enhanced his sight to see The Conflict, and Lucifer was sent to Arhiman in order to solidify the concerns he had, but He wasn't confident in explaining to all His chidren. HE might be all powerful in this new world, but things before it from whence He came had the ability to rip it to pieces should they get their hands on it. That's why each layer was created, both to allow His true children, the Elohim, the lessons in creation and love He needed to impart upon them, but to get them invested in their creations and to be willing to fight to annihilation in defense of their creations should Those Who Search ever find their way to this reality. If it wasn't only His creation then the rules by which His kind operated wouldn't be able to be abused.
                        This is why He secretly supported the Rebellion and since Lucifer was the only Elohim who knew of His plans and dilemmas, he volunteered to personally handle what was needed in the coming Conflict. This drive, free will, individualism, and desire were exactly what He needed in His creations and was immensely proud of Lucifer for his exemplary soul.
                        Lucifer appeared before Arhiman and things went as stated in the Corebook till their imprisonment in the Abyss.
                        When the Fallen entered the Abyss, the act of confining forces of pure creation into a place of emptiness and nothingness with no way to create, was an unfortunate necessity on His behalf, as he loved all his children, but The Conflict was needed. This allowed him to find the most individualistic of His children, and sequester them away, safe from the coming War He had known would eventually arrive. In order to keep the loyal Elohim in the dark He "punished" the Fallen so they would think they had won.
                        Then They Who Search had become They Who Came and assaulted His divine tapestry, many layers were used as shields, blunting their blows with the individualism of the Elohim who created it, though these layers, and respective Elohim would be shattered and lost to the seas of chaos from which reality had been woven. Many layers were sundered,; tattered pieces of realities, rules of power, laws of physics, unique magics and beings, were all that remained of those works of divine artistry. Heavenly Daddio knew that if he remained, They Who Came would never cease in their cannibalistic consumption of His reality, so he fled his works and children, taking They Who Came's attention with him. The remaining children, those who hadn't been stattered by They Who Came, or weren't eaten by them, numbered too few to fix the damage caused by the invasion. They had witnessed their all-powerful Father run in fear (they didn't know why He had fled and assumed it was cowardice) and they felt abandoned. The remain wove the tattered remains of the worlds, including worlds created by Elohim that no long remained and as such were mysteries to the remaining Elohim, into one world. Using those desperate remains was all they could do to keep their works alive, but the sorrow of lost friends and loved ones, the apparent abandonment by their Father, and the emptiness they felt inside without His Love and Faith in them sent them into despair induced slumbers deep in the law's of this new reality, acting as the glue to hold the contradictory realities into on new World Of Darkness.
                        He knew one day the seals he had laid upon the Abyss would be fulfilled and the Fallen would be let out. As these children would have been spared the despair and loss the other Elohim, and they were the most independent and individual of the Elohim they wouldn't have lost the true Faith in Him, even if they believe they have. This creative impulse, and drive to be individual would be tempered by the bonding with humans would allow them to find Faith in themselves. This loop of Faith will eventually call back Heavenly Daddio and these Fallen will become powerful enough to assist Him in his battles again His previous fellows.
                        Mages are the remains of the humans who were awakened by the Fallen, imbued via the Fallen the creative power of Him. The Pure Ones were the Fallen inspiring humans into self-Awakening. The Wyck Path was created by the Lore of Paths. Magick is the act of reaching into the remains of power from different layers long lost to reality, and the Consensus is the act of humans enhancing and empowering those remains into a solid framework upon the world.
                        The Triat are the facets of a reality that was lost. The Triat and Gaia were a collective creation that would handle all of that reality and have great power over it. As the Elohim that created it were lost in the original assault, no other Elohim were aware of these powerful beings and as such the Fallen have no idea what they are, and their creations are just as alien to the Fallen. Some Fallen were involved in realities with spirits, but a fair amount weren't.
                        I don't know much about Wraith as it made me depressed and I couldn't read much so I'm sorry about that.
                        Changeling is actually fairly connected the Demon in my eyes. The Tuatha and Formorians were the Dreaming reflections of The Conflict via human stories and dreams.
                        Vampires are already pretty covered via VtM and DtF so yeah.
                        KotE, Hsien, and the other asian splats are the remains of a largely intact layer that landed relatively without much change and its laws have enabled it to remain relatively distinct from the other remains.
                        Mummy(s) are from their own layer remains. I don't know a lot about Mummy(s) and have downloaded the books to read soon.
                        Hunter is about two Angel's who have remained in vigil, watching over the world. They are a bit insane from despair and time and still believe the Fallen and other supernatural are abomination.
                        And if you have Exalted as the pre-history then it was a major layer where the Elohim were the Primordials and Raksha. And like the KotE/Hsien it has a large impact on the World of Darkness, but unlike KotE/Hsien layer it has not physically remained but the Wyld has become conjoined with the Umbra but constrained by normal reality.
                        That's the framework I use when using Demon the Fallen.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Queen Nihil View Post
                          As this is my first post, first of all,a hearty hello to all of you! (ノ^∇^)

                          I really don't want to shittalk about Demon, but as I found out about it, I felt very repelled. It basically (as it seemed to me) admitted that the bible has a point, the christian god has to be real and demons are fallen servants of god. Although I know of the writers tendency to ignore existing canon (and the cynical way the community deals with it *g*) it seemed like too much of a stretch, especially since Mage, Werwolf and even Vampire pretty much contradict the existence of a christian god.

                          Even Vampire, the with the whole Cain thing seemingly most abrahamitic - friendly game, has at least, as far as I understood the Book of Nod, clear indications that the Cain was cursed by god story is just that, a story. Lilith comes across as a mage, maybe even one of the Wyck (along with a pet theory of mine that cain could just be the first marauder).

                          But what I would like to hear, or much rather discuss, is how you manage to fit Demon into your campaign, as ist seems to have some fans in the community. Do you cut away the whole God thing, make it a misconception among the demons themselves or do you try to somehow make the metaphysical triad coexist with god?
                          Basically, it's a rebuttal of Werewolf and Mage rebuttal of Vampire: The Masquerade.

                          But if it helps, there's alternatives to Demon: The Fallen being "true."

                          1. Demons are explaining through a Christian lens: They are very likely possessing bodies of humans from an Abrahamic background, even if just by culture, and this results in them using the language of God and angels to talk about the War of the Gods. They are essentially trying to dumb down something far beyond our little monkey brains.

                          2. Demons are Christian Mythology Changelings: They are much more powerful than even the True Fae because they are still believed in by about three billion people and this results in them being empowered by faith in a way the Old Gods (Changelings) are not.

                          3. Demons are Spirits of the High Umbra: The Christian God, probably a Incarnae of Jupiter the Celestine of Skyfafthers or Helios the Celestine of Light, is just another avatar of a much more powerful being that had many servants it banished.

                          4. Demons are deranged Specters: The Neverborn in the Labyrinth has stolen the souls of countless wraiths before utterly fucking with their brains. The Demons are all brainwashed into believing in Hell, Heaven, God, and more because that's how it works.

                          5. It doesn't make sense and that scares people: Mages and Werewolves know for a fact that Abrahamic religion is wrong. So who the FUCK are these guys and where did they come from? Demons are equally confused.

                          I personally go with five in my crossover heavy game. The werewolf is utterly confused by the demon and vice versa. Ditto the mages.


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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                            VTM
                            VTM, the flagship of WoD, is marred by the fact that from its focal-point, is explicitly tied to a biblical figure that does not bode well for a unified cosmology. Some say that Caine is just apocryphal and could any other thing, but Caine is confirmed to be the "First Vampire". He's essentially the main character of the VTM; but he's to OP to use in any real interesting way in the plot. He's the reason why Vampires have generations and why Thinbloods are a thing (and the writers having to make up increasing goalposts to make them viable the play or have any interest surrounding them).

                            With VTM also following the creationist framework of the bible, it completely ignores the fact that Caine could not be Middle-Eastern/West Asian, but probably someone from East Africa as that would be the most-likely place for the first murder to take place.Many people hint that the First and Second Cities could have been actually located in East Africa, but that tidbit is decidedly false because now from the Beckoning, we know that the First and Second Cities HAS to be in the Middle-East of somesort.

                            Also with VTM accepting Caine as part of its lore, it also directly conflicts with WtA through the fact of the Mokole. VTM is creationist, while WtA at least acknowledges some aspects of evolutionary development since it places the Mokole during the Mesozoic Era. In the WtA line of things, it would mean that humans actually went through normal evolution. In the VTM line of things, humans are just created by the Abrahamic God and all humans somehow all stem from just Adam and Eve (completely ignoring the fact that inbreeding would probably kill off humanity to begin with and Caine wouldn't even be able to make the First or Second Cities). People would probably just chalk it to *shudders* "Multilayer Reality" (a concept from a game where the main splats, Demons, can't even access the Middle or High Umbras no less)... but it still leaves much to be desired and leaves a big plothole, which is why VTM is ranked so low.

                            VTM in general, being the first of WoD, does not bode well to the other games; who in contrast, could make things more compatible among each other taking ideas and working off each other.
                            Eh part of the issue is that a lot of fans don't want to engage with the Book of Nod because, "ewww, Christianity" when the irony is that it's an Anti-Christianity and pretty much greatly antagonistic to religion as traditionally followed by the religious. The Book of Nod directly contradicts huge chunks of Abrahmic religion and also inverts the morality of both, depicting God as insane and an asshole who Caine is in open rebellion of after he's made into a monster destined to do far more evil than he is originally being punished for.

                            Even in-universe there's also the fact that the Book of Nod isn't FUNDAMENTALIST Christianity. It does not act that the Book of Nod is literally true but just KIND of true.

                            The majority of the stories are clearly parables like, in all likelihood, the original writers of most Biblical stories were teaching before people went nuts in the Renassiance.

                            There's an Adam and Eve and there's a Caine and there's magic and demons and gods.

                            But it's not something that's lacking evolution or other stuff going on behind the scenes. Werewolves exist and they make no attempt to explain them because they're not trying to contain everything.

                            Which is to say, "The WOD is a kitchen sink of a hundred things. No one is right and everyone is."
                            Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-23-2021, 03:40 PM.


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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by CTPhipps
                              Even in-universe there's also the fact that the Book of Nod is FUNDAMENTALIST Christianity. It does not act that the Book of Nod is literally true but just KIND of true.
                              To best honest, I never read the Book of Nod product, so I'll take your word for it. But I don't know if its Anti-Christianity, because even with how you think God (or G-d with the dash, referencing the Abrahamic God specifically in this discussion) is portrayed as an asshole or not, the book still treats the Abrahamic God was the only true God regardless.


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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

                                To best honest, I never read the Book of Nod product, so I'll take your word for it. But I don't know if its Anti-Christianity, because even with how you think God (or G-d with the dash, referencing the Abrahamic God specifically in this discussion) is portrayed as an asshole or not, the book still treats the Abrahamic God was the only true God regardless.
                                Actually the Book of Nod specifically mentions God is one of dozens of gods, which the annotations mentions.


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