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  • #31
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Pentex makes Formori by putting toxic waste barrels in creeks.

    It can make Formori with surgery and injections.

    It doesn't go for the torch-lit ceremony thing.

    Yeah, I thought I read it somewhere and you are correct.

    In the GerDiv and Magadon sections alone, there were at least four instances of Pentex making "mutants" WITHOUT the use of banes. Period.


    PENTEX SUCKS.

    I'm a gamer. I'm conservative. We exist.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      Pentex makes Formori by putting toxic waste barrels in creeks.

      It can make Formori with surgery and injections.

      It doesn't go for the torch-lit ceremony thing.
      Yeah. I didn't say it did. Also, what you described is not really a science, but just another manifestation of making deals or attracting spirits, which is also why I bristle at the notion of Garou necessarily being religious.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

        Yeah. I didn't say it did. Also, what you described is not really a science, but just another manifestation of making deals or attracting spirits, which is also why I bristle at the notion of Garou necessarily being religious.
        The Garou are explictly a religious military order. They can't NOT be religious and be part of the Garou Nation since the Garou Nation is a military order dedicated to defending God.

        It's just God is the universe.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          The Garou are explictly a religious military order.
          No, they are not. They're spirit warriors who band together into septs and have a number of strong disagreements with each other, the only thing they don't disagree about being the importance of standing against corruption for Gaia, as they can all get the feeling.

          They can't NOT be religious and be part of the Garou Nation since the Garou Nation is a military order dedicated to defending God.

          It's just God is the universe.
          Pages 36-40 of the Revised Storyteller's Handbook outline how that tack is extremely misleading. It also mentions that there are religious factions in the Garou Nation - not a single whole, but a number of different takes on things when it comes to organized belief, as opposed to ritual ceremonies to appease beings that you can touch and talk with. You absolutely do not need to treat it as a religion. The Uktena and Stargazers sure don't; the dissection of mystic lore that they engage in tends to lends itself much more to philosophical takes than religious ones. Meanwhile, the Bone Gnawers are largerly too concerned with survival to bother with religious dimensions of animism over practical ones, while Glass Walkers only really have a religious faction in the form of the Wise Guys, who mix in a lot of Catholicism, not unlike the Sisters of Our Merciful Mother, from the Black Furies' corner.

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          • #35
            The....STARGAZERS don't treat themselves as a religious order? The werewolves who are a practicing monastic Buddhist religious order?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              The....STARGAZERS don't treat themselves as a religious order? The werewolves who are a practicing monastic Buddhist religious order?
              That would be The Zephyr camp, specifically. If you're in a different camp, or not in a camp at all, you won't share the same outlook. See also, Stargazers Revised page 32 for a direct refutation of your assumption.

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              • #37
                Werewolves give Chimanage to numerous spirits, especially their pack totem, Cairn Totems, Luna and Gaia in many rites.
                It is religious in nature because they worship spirits, but it's Animism or Shamanism faith, an older more primal type of religion. you'll find that most practices are the same or similar around the world (With changes not unlike denominations of Christianity)
                But it's definitely religious, monthly midnight masses (moot) at the local church (Cairn) Literally fighting the archenemy (Wyrm) and their minions

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                  Werewolves give Chimanage to numerous spirits, especially their pack totem, Cairn Totems, Luna and Gaia in many rites.
                  It is religious in nature because they worship spirits, but it's Animism or Shamanism faith, an older more primal type of religion. you'll find that most practices are the same or similar around the world (With changes not unlike denominations of Christianity)
                  But it's definitely religious, monthly midnight masses (moot) at the local church (Cairn) Literally fighting the archenemy (Wyrm) and their minions
                  They don't actually worship spirits, or at least, that sort of mindset is not required for working the traditions in a rite. Chiminage is a deal struck in good faith, not veneration in the faith of a religion. Also, moots are often even more like war councils in flavor, and the sacred grounds where vitality leaks through to still nourish the world in a very palpable fashion. Whatever religious significance or approach clings to these practices tends to come from the upbringing of a Homid Garou, to the extent that it survives or manages to mesh well with the practices of the Garou as distinct from humanity.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                    They don't actually worship spirits, or at least, that sort of mindset is not required for working the traditions in a rite. Chiminage is a deal struck in good faith, not veneration in the faith of a religion. Also, moots are often even more like war councils in flavor, and the sacred grounds where vitality leaks through to still nourish the world in a very palpable fashion. Whatever religious significance or approach clings to these practices tends to come from the upbringing of a Homid Garou, to the extent that it survives or manages to mesh well with the practices of the Garou as distinct from humanity.
                    Not all worship is about faith-veneration. A lot of religious (e.g. Chinese folk religion[s]) treat 'just business' relationships with deities as a normal thing. To think otherwise sounds like leaning towards a mix of Abrahamo- and post-antiquity-Eurocentrism (not the best term, I know, but hopefully it's good enough to make the point across).

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by vicky_molokh View Post
                      Not all worship is about faith-veneration. A lot of religious (e.g. Chinese folk religion[s]) treat 'just business' relationships with deities as a normal thing. To think otherwise sounds like leaning towards a mix of Abrahamo- and post-antiquity-Eurocentrism (not the best term, I know, but hopefully it's good enough to make the point across).
                      Worship has a very specific meaning within common use of English and it having been shaped by its formation within Christian cultures in Europe, though. Also, the distinction was drawn in the Revised Storyteller's Handbook, which does make bones about beings religious vs. being spiritual, and how while all Garou are the latter (because they are part spirit and live with spirits and can touch them), they are not universally the former.

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                      • #41
                        I would still see it as religion, but I can concede your view when looking through a slightly different lens.
                        The weird thing would be "Faith" Wolves don't have faith because they can interact with these godly creatures and directly see the results

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                          The weird thing would be "Faith" Wolves don't have faith because they can interact with these godly creatures and directly see the results
                          What about Gaia, and the Triat? Very, very few (near to none, I think?) Fera actually interact with them directly. Yet the Garou base - or try to base - their actions on their for love Gaia. Isn't this faith?


                          Would you say that the Ananasi have no faith in Queen Ananasa because they interact with her personally? I think they do; unless they are one of the ones that don't follow Queen Ananasa.
                          Last edited by Muad'Dib; 09-21-2017, 03:44 AM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                            Worship has a very specific meaning within common use of English and it having been shaped by its formation within Christian cultures in Europe, though. Also, the distinction was drawn in the Revised Storyteller's Handbook, which does make bones about beings religious vs. being spiritual, and how while all Garou are the latter (because they are part spirit and live with spirits and can touch them), they are not universally the former.
                            That . . . sort of plays into a very Euro kind of No True Scotsman against other types of religions.
                            It sort of reminds me how to an east-derived culture person, Kappa are water deities, but I've seen euro-derived-culture people saying that they "don't count" as 'true' deities and thus believing in Kappa does not make one religious.

                            I'm pointing it out because Werewolf is supposed to be more international and tribal, so such a 'Western' form of NTSing looks very out of place and contrary the aforementioned aspect of the game line.
                            Last edited by vicky_molokh; 09-21-2017, 06:02 AM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by vicky_molokh View Post
                              That . . . sort of plays into a very Euro kind of No True Scotsman against other types of religions.
                              It sort of reminds me how to an east-derived culture person, Kappa are water deities, but I've seen euro-derived-culture people saying that they "don't count" as 'true' deities and thus believing in Kappa does not make one religious.
                              But Garou and Fera don't believe in these, because they exist independently of belief. Changers and others attuned to the Middle Umbra touch and feel and know that something is there. There is no question of faith in a (culturally plundered) all-powerful figure as in Christianity; none of the world beyond is ineffable, abstract, or an allegory. The forces are palpable in Werewolf. You can touch them, and they can touch back. Ironically, having faith tends to make them less able to do so, because you have faith in a human belief system, and they don't tend to match up with the realities of the Penumbra of the WoD, instead granting the True Faith trait and blocking out most living spirits and ghosts via established human spiritual practices.

                              I'm pointing it out because Werewolf is supposed to be more international and tribal, so such a 'Western' form of NTSing looks very out of place and contrary the aforementioned aspect of the game line.
                              It's similarly international in how it tends to disregard what a lot of religions consider important, using the broader version of the term religion. No one's beliefs are going to line up with those of the Garou or Fera to any secure degree, because firstly, that wouldn't make them very horrifying worldwide when they need to be in a metatextual capacity of purpose (if werewolves aren't scary in some way to someone, why bother?), and secondly, Werewolf has a big thing about rejecting humanity putting itself on a pedestal, which is going to be present in most, if not all, religions to some degree.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                                What about Gaia, and the Triat? Very, very few (near to none, I think?) Fera actually interact with them directly. Yet the Garou base - or try to base - their actions on their for love Gaia. Isn't this faith?
                                It's impossible to interact with Gaia and the Triat directly, in the same sense that it's impossible for a tiny being such as one of us to interact with the Solar System or Galaxy on a whole, much less something that permeates and feeds into the existence of all space-time. However, anyone with Gnosis can feel their connection to the cosmos, not unlike how Jedi or the psychics from Trinity are attuned to the universe and all life within it. They don't receive these cues in an uncertain fashion, much as how Obi Wan was not wholly uncertain about what happened to Alderaan in Episode 4. A lot of people died. The exact cause might have been up for discussion until they ran into the Death Star, but the event itself? There was only the cold, stomach-turning, horrifying certainty that it happened.

                                Would you say that the Ananasi have no faith in Queen Ananasa because they interact with her personally? I think they do; unless they are one of the ones that don't follow Queen Ananasa.
                                They pulled a massive campaign of deceit and manipulation to be able to talk to her and find a way out of the present FUBAR state of the universe, so that's not really something I would place as faith in a religious sense. They have great faith that she knows what she's doing, and being away from her is likely what could be classified as "spiritually taxing", but that's a different sort of thing.

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