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  • #16
    Originally posted by Lian View Post


    Except they aren't dragons, because they don't swim through the air and speak for the Jade Emperor. Dragon is a friggen large category in myth and legend that covers a bunch of different things. Saying a mage or vampire who transforms into a dragon "doesn't count" means Fafnir doesn't count as a Dragon. Its kind of stupid to say anything doesn't count.
    Fafnir never went back to being a dwarf. In contrast, vampires that can shapeshift can barely keep their other forms around long enough to experience life as anything but a vampire, and still need to drain human blood in massive quantities order to maintain said form. On this sliding scale of dragon-ing, Aleph is quite right about vampires being the worst fit.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

      Fafnir never went back to being a dwarf. In contrast, vampires that can shapeshift can barely keep their other forms around long enough to experience life as anything but a vampire, and still need to drain human blood in massive quantities order to maintain said form. On this sliding scale of dragon-ing, Aleph is quite right about vampires being the worst fit.

      A Bygone dragon could probably keep their dragon form around about as often on earth, possibly less so because of quint costs. a Bygone if there were enough pc bits to play them(which there isn't really) would probably spend the majority of their time in human form and maybe get to spend some dragon time in the umbra.

      I don't think Vampire elders is a super good fit.. but I don't think anything really is a great fit since there's no "dragon game" you have to make do with what's there. If someone is running a vampire game and you want to play a dragon that's really teh best option they have for playing a dragon.
      Last edited by Lian; 09-28-2017, 12:40 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Lian View Post


        A Bygone dragon could probably keep their dragon form around about as often on earth, possibly less so because of quint costs. a Bygone if there were enough pc bits to play them(which there isn't really) would probably spend the majority of their time in human form and maybe get to spend some dragon time in the umbra.
        Whereas they can still do it right from the get-go, and in the meantime are probably engaging in heists to acquire riches to be a dragon again, or something with similar thematic resonance.

        Also, they don't burn up in sunlight.

        I don't think Vampire elders is a super good fit.. but I don't think anything really is a great fit since there's no "dragon game" you have to make do with what's there. If someone is running a vampire game and you want to play a dragon that's really teh best option they have for playing a dragon.
        On the other hand, Mokole can do this very easily from chargen, and need no resources to do so. They even have a reason to hoard gold and silver away from others (if not sit on a giant pile of them in Archid, because, y'know),

        And they, too, do not burn up in the sun.

        Most vampires are also not going to fit in this game with whatever other elder that turns into a dragon, so you'll be the odd one out if you take that path.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

          Whereas they can still do it right from the get-go, and in the meantime are probably engaging in heists to acquire riches to be a dragon again, or something with similar thematic resonance.

          Also, they don't burn up in sunlight.

          They just fall over dead randomly instead. Bygones dragons aren't particularly playable. If someone wants to play a Dragon in Mage. I'd go with Dragon Avatar and let them build up to their true dragon nature.

          I suggested a whole bunch of other options out there other than "Vampire Elder" I'm saying if someone wants to go all Dragon in a Vampire game.. Protean and Vis, Serpentis all good choices. Claiming Vampirism as "the blood of Dragons" is no more crazy in Vampire than you know.. the whole Caine thing. But I broke down my suggestions by Game and stick to the idea that Bygone is a shitty choice. Its a shitty choice in mage. its an extra shitty choice if you aren't playing Mage.

          But since you seem to think "blood drinking dragon that burns in the sun" is "LESS OF A REAL DRAGON" while I can't get those two particular traits to add up in myth there are dragons who have issues with the sun. and Dragonlike creatures that drink blood and fight werewolves..

          On the other hand, Mokole can do this very easily from chargen, and need no resources to do so. They even have a reason to hoard gold and silver away from others (if not sit on a giant pile of them in Archid, because, y'know),

          And they, too, do not burn up in the sun.

          Most vampires are also not going to fit in this game with whatever other elder that turns into a dragon, so you'll be the odd one out if you take that path.
          Yep Mokole would be better in some generic super crossover game. People rarely run those and treat the very idea of "Game where you can play whatever you want" as some sort of abomination against all that is.

          Of course Mokole don't cover the potential satanic connection that many legends cover at which point a Demon would work better on that front.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Lian
            They just fall over dead randomly instead.
            Not randomly, they do if they don't have the quintessence. And this isn't a problem in the dark ages, and thus it's related to *when* do you intend to play.

            Of course Mokole don't cover the potential satanic connection that many legends cover at which point a Demon would work better on that front.
            Unless you have a Wyrm tainted Mokole...

            Albeit Demons are far from the most terrible "dragon poseurs"-if you underplay the importance and intimacy of pacts, and the fact that they were/are angels (parts of a legend that hasn't a whole lot to do with dragons), and the fact that if you get killed by a knight of shining armor you only need to posess someone (or something) to reapear. I can see it.

            I also think that an Earthbound would work much better, as they can be much bigger than normal demons if they want (dragons tend to be big), and are so twisted by their own legend that one may believe himself a dragon, only being able to appear in ritually prepared dragon statues (you can't just posses somebody) and only recevie faith in form of rituals that involve giving him riches and livestock (very thematic). I reckon that that last example may satisface even my need for thematic purity, which a mere Demon wouldn't. It still would be more of a "ghost dragon/god dragon" that posseses statues than a proper dragon, but I can live with that.
            Last edited by Aleph; 09-28-2017, 03:47 PM.

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            • #21
              A dark ages fae may also very well be a dragon. Probably firstborn, miiiiiight be inanimae in very special cases.


              My Mage 2e Homebrew

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              • #22
                I agree with some others when I say that Bygone Bestiary is probably the best way to go. Because you aren't a different supernatural first before you're a dragon, but an actual capital-d Dragon. Even my homebrew Mage craft, the Heretical Order of Draconic Knights (who I've been meaning to make a write-up for), are still Mage Knights first and foremost. Human beings, who might have a little dragon blood in them, but are still humans; mages for whom "becoming dragons" is their version of Ascension.

                If you want to play an actual Dragon - a Welcome To Night Vale, "Hiram McDaniels is literally a five-headed dragon" Dragon - you use Bygone Bestiary. It is the rulebook for playing creatures that existed in truth, once upon a time, because the Consensus supported them as being just as real as dogs or robins or flounders. And it covered both dragons as huge lizards, and dragons as Eastern god-like beings.


                So, if you use Bygone Bestiary, the next question to ask is "when is this set?" If you play one in the Dark Ages, you are gold. People believe in dragons then. Arguably, you could also do so in the Sorcerer's Crusade, set in the Renaissance, because Bygone Bestiary is a Sorcerer's Crusade book (at least at its core, though it was written to be applicable to the other game lines).

                If you're in the modern day, it becomes a bit harder, but still possible. You would take the Thaumivore Flaw, to denote the fact that you need a steady drip of Quintessence to survive, and the Shapechanger Advantage will allow you to walk among people (and, so long as you only have the one alternate form - a human - it costs only 3 freebie points). This Advantage as written is actually really forgiving, in that it has no duration; you can be in whichever form you choose, for as long as you want. If a Storyteller is willing, he might even wave or reduce the Thaumivore Flaw if you spend most of your time in human form, since you are conforming to the Consensus. So you might get a lesser form of Thaumivore that only costs one Quintessence point for every day you appear in your true shape, to simplify matters. It's up to how the Storyteller feels, and about how heavily you guys want the game to feature your character's eternal hunt for precious Tass.

                I would personally make it a relatively young wurm - only a few years old - so it's about the size of a person. That way you don't waste freebie points on Size or the like, and it justifies having mostly human-level Attributes (at least to start with). Your Storyteller will probably require you buy Human Speech, but might not; again, it depends on the Storyteller. You WILL need to pay at least 5 freebie points for Hazardous Breath, since you are a Dragon and should therefore be able to spit fire (and getting only the basic kind is appropriate for a wurmling, just out of his shell). Claws and Fangs and Armor, too.

                This is turning out to be a pretty expensive character, all things considered. Might need to take out more Flaws.
                Last edited by Bluecho; 09-29-2017, 11:39 PM.


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                • #23
                  All this talk of Dragons and no one has mentioned Rage Across Russia or Nights of Prophecy, where Baba Yaga had a few at her beck and call.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by PazuzuAxelf View Post
                    All this talk of Dragons and no one has mentioned Rage Across Russia or Nights of Prophecy, where Baba Yaga had a few at her beck and call.
                    Because Rage Across Russia kind of got mechanically brushed under the rug, and Rage Across the World hinted at Zmei being stronger than they were presented in prior work (killing another one was used to justify one of the Russian Fenrir reaching Rank 6). And in any case, there are dragons that you can play in a game, and dragons that will knock over the focus of a game, and Zmei are of the latter variety.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by AdamG View Post
                      So what would a "spirit" [Werewolf] dragon character look like?
                      For settings with Umbra access they would look exactly as the myths, since they would technically be either the creatures that spawned the myths or the ones born from the myths as concepts. So, depending on the imaginary bit you're considering, they can be long serpent-like Chinese dragons, full of wisdom and shapeshifting powers and constantly protecting their immortality pearl or huge, fat and dinosaur-like European dragons, with fire breathing and all.

                      In modern days they're way too alien to stay even in the penumbra, you'll need to travel at least to the middle umbra to find them (likely to the Gates of Arcadia or the Legendary Realms). Summoning one of them on Earth should be quite difficult if not borderline impossible since you can't summon the ones existing inside a Realm.

                      Old editions of DA Vampire had dragons as a possible, even if rare, encounter. I think it had something like 30 health levels, lot of armor and the ability to breath out the equivalent of Lure of the Flames 5.
                      Last edited by Maris Streck; 10-01-2017, 06:45 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

                        For settings with Umbra access they would look exactly as the myths, since they would technically be either the creatures that spawned the myths or the ones born from the myths as concepts. So, depending on the imaginary bit you're considering, they can be long serpent-like Chinese dragons, full of wisdom and shapeshifting powers and constantly protecting their immortality pearl or huge, fat and dinosaur-like European dragons, with fire breathing and all.

                        In modern days they're way too alien to stay even in the penumbra, you'll need to travel at least to the middle umbra to find them (likely to the Gates of Arcadia or the Legendary Realms). Summoning one of them on Earth should be quite difficult if not borderline impossible since you can't summon the ones existing inside a Realm.
                        The Middle Umbra is the Penumbra, at least whenever Werewolf is talking about the Penumbra. You're thinking of the Near Realms of the Middle Umbra, except that's not actually where monsters go; anything that you find in a Middle Umbra Realm is extremely likely to be an emanation of the Realm, not something from the outside that came in. There are a number of notable outside visitors to these Realms, of course, but "Bygones" (a term that doesn't really mesh so much with the Middle Umbra, because it's Werewolf country and Werewolf doesn't use that concept) wouldn't be likely to show up very often.

                        Old editions of DA Vampire had dragons as a possible, even if rare, encounter. I think it had something like 30 health levels, lot of armor and the ability to breath out the equivalent of Lure of the Flames 5.
                        For when your historical campaign needs to become D&D&B...

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                          You're thinking of the Near Realms of the Middle Umbra
                          I'm thinking of that part of the Umbra that is contained in the Horizon but not Penumbra.

                          Anything that you find in a Middle Umbra Realm is extremely likely to be an emanation of the Realm, not something from the outside that came in. There are a number of notable outside visitors to these Realms, of course, but "Bygones" (a term that doesn't really mesh so much with the Middle Umbra, because it's Werewolf country and Werewolf doesn't use that concept) wouldn't be likely to show up very often.
                          Adventure-wise there's no difference between a general bygone and a realm emanation. Finding a dragon to involve in your party's adventure is definitely easier if you plan the encounter in the proper Realm or the Astral reaches rather than the Penumbra; of course as a storyteller you can pick whatever you want but a dragon should be way, way too rare to meet in your average stepping sideways.

                          But, of course, you can't summon a Realm spirit oustide its realm.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
                            I agree with some others when I say that Bygone Bestiary is probably the best way to go. Because you aren't a different supernatural first before you're a dragon, but an actual capital-d Dragon. Even my homebrew Mage craft, the Heretical Order of Draconic Knights (who I've been meaning to make a write-up for), are still Mage Knights first and foremost. Human beings, who might have a little dragon blood in them, but are still humans; mages for whom "becoming dragons" is their version of Ascension.

                            If you want to play an actual Dragon - a Welcome To Night Vale, "Hiram McDaniels is literally a five-headed dragon" Dragon - you use Bygone Bestiary. It is the rulebook for playing creatures that existed in truth, once upon a time, because the Consensus supported them as being just as real as dogs or robins or flounders. And it covered both dragons as huge lizards, and dragons as Eastern god-like beings.


                            So, if you use Bygone Bestiary, the next question to ask is "when is this set?" If you play one in the Dark Ages, you are gold. People believe in dragons then. Arguably, you could also do so in the Sorcerer's Crusade, set in the Renaissance, because Bygone Bestiary is a Sorcerer's Crusade book (at least at its core, though it was written to be applicable to the other game lines).

                            If you're in the modern day, it becomes a bit harder, but still possible. You would take the Thaumivore Flaw, to denote the fact that you need a steady drip of Quintessence to survive, and the Shapechanger Advantage will allow you to walk among people (and, so long as you only have the one alternate form - a human - it costs only 3 freebie points). This Advantage as written is actually really forgiving, in that it has no duration; you can be in whichever form you choose, for as long as you want. If a Storyteller is willing, he might even wave or reduce the Thaumivore Flaw if you spend most of your time in human form, since you are conforming to the Consensus. So you might get a lesser form of Thaumivore that only costs one Quintessence point for every day you appear in your true shape, to simplify matters. It's up to how the Storyteller feels, and about how heavily you guys want the game to feature your character's eternal hunt for precious Tass.

                            I would personally make it a relatively young wurm - only a few years old - so it's about the size of a person. That way you don't waste freebie points on Size or the like, and it justifies having mostly human-level Attributes (at least to start with). Your Storyteller will probably require you buy Human Speech, but might not; again, it depends on the Storyteller. You WILL need to pay at least 5 freebie points for Hazardous Breath, since you are a Dragon and should therefore be able to spit fire (and getting only the basic kind is appropriate for a wurmling, just out of his shell). Claws and Fangs and Armor, too.

                            This is turning out to be a pretty expensive character, all things considered. Might need to take out more Flaws.


                            I'll point out Bygone Bestiary and ascensions Right hand have you start off with LESS Stats than your starting Mage/Changeling/Vampire/etc. You start with the 6/4/3 fewer abilities that Ghouls/Kinfolk/other less templates get. You are also basically playing a mortal that can occasionally turn into a dragon who needs to eat quint.. perhaps if he had some sort of method of getting quint from humans like blood or something..

                            And I'm going to point out again "He was really born a dragon" is bullshit(So is breaths fire but poisons are needed in some fashion for a western dragon) since you know it leaves out Fafnir. If the most fucking famous mythic dragons "isn't a real dragon" then maybe your system isn't quite working. So Yeah a Mage who's avatar is a dragon or a changeling dragon kith damn well should count.

                            And Mokole damn well count more than your bygone since they are born as they are, start with higher stats and actually can give you a fucking Kaiju of firebreathing awesomeness right from get go. If you want to turn into a giant lizardy thing that can fly, breath fire as an innate power and not a gift/art/etc Mokole give you your best bang for your buck to start.

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                            • #29
                              accidental double post
                              Last edited by Lian; 10-01-2017, 03:28 PM.

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                              • #30
                                I might have missed it, but nothing in Bygone Bestiary seem to indicate that Dragons (or any monsters) need to eat quintessence to survive. It would make sense in a Mage game/crossover, but the rules do not requires it (and it wouldn't make sense fro a chimerical Dragon though there would have other consequences to face)

                                While the initial set of stats is not that great, te shapechange to human cost only 3 pt at character creation and nothing to shapechange after that.

                                For a young inexperienced Dragon the system is not that bad. (I personally find the range of abilities to develop limited for a long term campaign compared to available powers of main templates)

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