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  • Flinty
    replied
    A dark ages fae may also very well be a dragon. Probably firstborn, miiiiiight be inanimae in very special cases.

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  • Aleph
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian
    They just fall over dead randomly instead.
    Not randomly, they do if they don't have the quintessence. And this isn't a problem in the dark ages, and thus it's related to *when* do you intend to play.

    Of course Mokole don't cover the potential satanic connection that many legends cover at which point a Demon would work better on that front.
    Unless you have a Wyrm tainted Mokole...

    Albeit Demons are far from the most terrible "dragon poseurs"-if you underplay the importance and intimacy of pacts, and the fact that they were/are angels (parts of a legend that hasn't a whole lot to do with dragons), and the fact that if you get killed by a knight of shining armor you only need to posess someone (or something) to reapear. I can see it.

    I also think that an Earthbound would work much better, as they can be much bigger than normal demons if they want (dragons tend to be big), and are so twisted by their own legend that one may believe himself a dragon, only being able to appear in ritually prepared dragon statues (you can't just posses somebody) and only recevie faith in form of rituals that involve giving him riches and livestock (very thematic). I reckon that that last example may satisface even my need for thematic purity, which a mere Demon wouldn't. It still would be more of a "ghost dragon/god dragon" that posseses statues than a proper dragon, but I can live with that.
    Last edited by Aleph; 09-28-2017, 03:47 PM.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

    Whereas they can still do it right from the get-go, and in the meantime are probably engaging in heists to acquire riches to be a dragon again, or something with similar thematic resonance.

    Also, they don't burn up in sunlight.

    They just fall over dead randomly instead. Bygones dragons aren't particularly playable. If someone wants to play a Dragon in Mage. I'd go with Dragon Avatar and let them build up to their true dragon nature.

    I suggested a whole bunch of other options out there other than "Vampire Elder" I'm saying if someone wants to go all Dragon in a Vampire game.. Protean and Vis, Serpentis all good choices. Claiming Vampirism as "the blood of Dragons" is no more crazy in Vampire than you know.. the whole Caine thing. But I broke down my suggestions by Game and stick to the idea that Bygone is a shitty choice. Its a shitty choice in mage. its an extra shitty choice if you aren't playing Mage.

    But since you seem to think "blood drinking dragon that burns in the sun" is "LESS OF A REAL DRAGON" while I can't get those two particular traits to add up in myth there are dragons who have issues with the sun. and Dragonlike creatures that drink blood and fight werewolves..

    On the other hand, Mokole can do this very easily from chargen, and need no resources to do so. They even have a reason to hoard gold and silver away from others (if not sit on a giant pile of them in Archid, because, y'know),

    And they, too, do not burn up in the sun.

    Most vampires are also not going to fit in this game with whatever other elder that turns into a dragon, so you'll be the odd one out if you take that path.
    Yep Mokole would be better in some generic super crossover game. People rarely run those and treat the very idea of "Game where you can play whatever you want" as some sort of abomination against all that is.

    Of course Mokole don't cover the potential satanic connection that many legends cover at which point a Demon would work better on that front.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post


    A Bygone dragon could probably keep their dragon form around about as often on earth, possibly less so because of quint costs. a Bygone if there were enough pc bits to play them(which there isn't really) would probably spend the majority of their time in human form and maybe get to spend some dragon time in the umbra.
    Whereas they can still do it right from the get-go, and in the meantime are probably engaging in heists to acquire riches to be a dragon again, or something with similar thematic resonance.

    Also, they don't burn up in sunlight.

    I don't think Vampire elders is a super good fit.. but I don't think anything really is a great fit since there's no "dragon game" you have to make do with what's there. If someone is running a vampire game and you want to play a dragon that's really teh best option they have for playing a dragon.
    On the other hand, Mokole can do this very easily from chargen, and need no resources to do so. They even have a reason to hoard gold and silver away from others (if not sit on a giant pile of them in Archid, because, y'know),

    And they, too, do not burn up in the sun.

    Most vampires are also not going to fit in this game with whatever other elder that turns into a dragon, so you'll be the odd one out if you take that path.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

    Fafnir never went back to being a dwarf. In contrast, vampires that can shapeshift can barely keep their other forms around long enough to experience life as anything but a vampire, and still need to drain human blood in massive quantities order to maintain said form. On this sliding scale of dragon-ing, Aleph is quite right about vampires being the worst fit.

    A Bygone dragon could probably keep their dragon form around about as often on earth, possibly less so because of quint costs. a Bygone if there were enough pc bits to play them(which there isn't really) would probably spend the majority of their time in human form and maybe get to spend some dragon time in the umbra.

    I don't think Vampire elders is a super good fit.. but I don't think anything really is a great fit since there's no "dragon game" you have to make do with what's there. If someone is running a vampire game and you want to play a dragon that's really teh best option they have for playing a dragon.
    Last edited by Lian; 09-28-2017, 12:40 AM.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post


    Except they aren't dragons, because they don't swim through the air and speak for the Jade Emperor. Dragon is a friggen large category in myth and legend that covers a bunch of different things. Saying a mage or vampire who transforms into a dragon "doesn't count" means Fafnir doesn't count as a Dragon. Its kind of stupid to say anything doesn't count.
    Fafnir never went back to being a dwarf. In contrast, vampires that can shapeshift can barely keep their other forms around long enough to experience life as anything but a vampire, and still need to drain human blood in massive quantities order to maintain said form. On this sliding scale of dragon-ing, Aleph is quite right about vampires being the worst fit.

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  • Aleph
    replied

    Originally posted by Lian
    Except they aren't dragons, because they don't swim through the air and speak for the Jade Emperor.
    Why not? I tought that the dragons summoned by the Wu Lung were covered there too. Aren't the elemental dragons there?. What a miss if they aren't...
    Dragon is a friggen large category in myth and legend that covers a bunch of different things.
    This is true, but I think that when someone asks about playing a dragon, isn't asking about playing a vampire
    Saying a mage or vampire who transforms into a dragon "doesn't count" means Fafnir doesn't count as a Dragon. Its kind of stupid to say anything doesn't count.
    I never used that expresion, I admit that transformation powers can get you there. However, if someone asks about playing a vampire, I would send that someone to Vampire, not to Mage (in spite of the fact that mages can have fangs, suck blood and be alergic to sunlight)

    You really don't see how playing an Elder Gangrel may be a different experience from playing a character that was deviced to be a dragon first and foremost?
    Last edited by Aleph; 09-27-2017, 04:09 PM.

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  • Ramnesis
    replied
    A long time ago (late 90s) there were a few fan WoD lines running around the internet. One of them was about playing Dragons. Couldn't tell you if it was any good or not, I only skimmed it and I didn't have any real sense of good game design back then anyways. It's probably still around somewhere, though.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
    One thing about Bygone Bestiary it's that it's dragons are full blooded dragons. They're Dragons: Not half-dragon, not a mage/vampire that transforms into a dragon trough magic, they're as dragon as dragons get. Another thing it's that it rules out that they're mostly dead or gone in the modern age. That's why it's called "bygone" bestiary.

    Except they aren't dragons, because they don't swim through the air and speak for the Jade Emperor. Dragon is a friggen large category in myth and legend that covers a bunch of different things. Saying a mage or vampire who transforms into a dragon "doesn't count" means Fafnir doesn't count as a Dragon. Its kind of stupid to say anything doesn't count.

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  • Aleph
    replied
    One thing about Bygone Bestiary it's that it's dragons are full blooded dragons. They're Dragons: Not half-dragon, not a mage/vampire that transforms into a dragon trough magic, they're as dragon as dragons get. Another thing it's that it rules out that they're mostly dead or gone in the modern age. That's why it's called "bygone" bestiary.

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  • TheVarulfen
    replied
    Originally posted by Colognian View Post
    I would eitherr go the Mokole way too or use The Bygone Bestiary.

    Bygone Bestiary would be the best source, I feel. A really powerfull dragon would be an advanced character, but that book has all the bits and pieces.

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  • Lian
    replied
    for Werewolf totems there's also Seiryu the Azure dragon of the East and debately Quetzlcoatl and Uktena.

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  • Colognian
    replied
    I would either go the Mokole way too or use The Bygone Bestiary.
    Last edited by Colognian; 09-23-2017, 03:48 PM.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by AdamG View Post
    So what would a "spirit" [Werewolf] dragon character look like?
    That depends on what its essential nature is; as an example, here's a rundown of various dragon-like totems in the Werewolf books. If it's an avatar of Dragon, the totem venerated by Mokole, it's going to represent reptilian diversity in all its splendor and not have much in the way of time for mammals, as one mammal in particular is causing it no end of trouble and it wants its followers to either mitigate this damage or... stop it entirely. An avatar of Typhon, however, will likely just want to get into fights, as it represents a combative aspect hand in hand with its connection to severe weather patterns. Firedrake is basically Smaug, and is interested in GOOOOOOLD!, which you have to sacrifice in a furnace in order to gain its favor, which comes with resistance to fire, greater stores of Rage, and a facility for metalwork. In contrast, Seadrake is cold and wants live sacrifices tossed into the ocean, and Wyvern is a heraldric symbol of war that, more than anything, wishes for Garou to be alert, never allow a caern to fall, and even forbids hostile takeovers and ousting of caern inhabitants by packs that follow it.

    So, aside from Garou being terrible, horribly hypocrites about declaring Mokole to be "the very image of the Wyrm" for following every one of these but the Mokole totem, this gives you a fairly broad range of ideas about what dragons can represent. As for their stats, consult the totem avatar construction portion of the book in the Totem Background and spirit sections of the book; it's fairly customizable in most regards. The actual Incarnae of these, however, will not have statistics.

    As with most spirit characters, however, the ST can make up whatever they wish. Dragons made of Greed? Doable. It's a bane that looks like a dragon and has the power to influence people to seek out wealth for its own sake, and then sits on a pile of said wealth. This may bring it into contention with followers of Firedrake for less than noble reasons, but only if the wealth that the Dragon of Greed is hoarding is GOOOOOOOLD!, as Firedrake is very specifically about the shinies.

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  • AdamG
    replied
    So what would a "spirit" [Werewolf] dragon character look like?

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