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How would a vampire escape a werewolf?

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  • How would a vampire escape a werewolf?

    Turning into a bat and flying away is a difficult power, and the infinite stamina of not needing to breath doesn't really work when the wolf is twice as fast and'll probably get you long before you can take advantage of that. A vampire, baring something hyper focused, old, and loaded with silver, doesn't really have much of a chance in the wilderness, especially against more than one wolf.

    Yet clans like the ravnos (who's illusions aren't really easy things to place) and gangrel have a good deal of nomads that explore the world outside of cities. I don't understand how such nomads could live so long, unless Animalism is really effective against garou or dominate works well on all forms. Obtenebration 2 seems like a good easy exit strategy, but Obfuscate seems to pale before primal urge.

    I know most vampires who spend some time in the wilderness learn places to avoid, but mistakes and bad luck are too often for more than a century half a century of unlife.


    Be correct.

  • #2
    On the nomads front, I'd imagine the rarity of supernatural creatures helps a lot there. It's a big world, and werewolves are a dying breed, they're not hiding in wait behind every tree to ambush vampires the second they walk outdoors. Encounters should be fairly infrequent.

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    • #3
      I'd think dominate and obfuscate could create opportunities to escape. Having high humanity would also make it a harder to track you, once you flee the scene, because you're less wyrm-tainted than kindred with lower humanity.

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      • #4
        Lack of scent trail helps

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        • #5
          Celerity to outrun it, Obfuscate to avoid it, Protean to fly away or get into mist, presence to use crowds as a shield,same goes for Dominate, Vicissitude to become blood and escaping into the cracks of a wall, there are several ways, depends on who you are.

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          • #6
            Chimestry is pretty damned good at tricking garou, compare Rank to chim level. Animalism is a hell of a thing for avoiding people when you are cutting through the woods so.. you know Ravnos and Gangrel. There's also traveling with others and the secret of running away from Garou is about being faster than the people you move with.

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            • #7
              There's generally a massive difference with the Garou (assuming WtA as written) between escaping Garou who are specifically trying to kill that one exact vampire, and escaping Garou who are just protecting their own territory.

              If the Garou know who you are - and worse know you're a vampire - and want you dead.... well you're pretty boned unless you have a lot of XP, or a lot of decently powered friends.

              If you're a vampire that's working the nomadic life and doesn't want to die by werewolf? Well that's pretty easy. First, stick to human transit routes. You'll want to for snacks as it is, and the Garou aren't patrolling every highway, railroad, and whatnot that connects cities together. Avoid groups that are obvious trouble (don't tag along with a gang) so you don't get mixed up with Garou keeping their own version of peace on whatever backwoods towns you end up in. The Sense Wyrm doesn't even detect all vampires, and it isn't reflexive... Garou have to use it on purpose. Scanning everyone that comes down the highway to pick off a lone vampires or whatever? Waste of time, the Garou have bigger problems. Don't go into the deep wilderness; it's hard on the blood anyway, plus werewolves.

              Disciplines in this context are better for never being worth notice in the first place. You want to use Animalism to learn what the local ecosystem (Rage impacts normal animals, so active packs in the local area is going to be noticed in a vague sense) is like, Protean or Obfuscate more for stealth than not, and and social/trickster Disciplines for making sure nobody thinks you're anything but a passing stranger that'll be gone as soon as you showed up.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                Chimestry is pretty damned good at tricking garou, compare Rank to chim level. Animalism is a hell of a thing for avoiding people when you are cutting through the woods so.. you know Ravnos and Gangrel. There's also traveling with others and the secret of running away from Garou is about being faster than the people you move with.
                Chimerstry can only function if you have a high enough level of Auspex to be able to guess at what an illusion should register as to Garou. Else, it's a transparently paper tiger.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                  Celerity to outrun it, Obfuscate to avoid it, Protean to fly away or get into mist, presence to use crowds as a shield,same goes for Dominate, Vicissitude to become blood and escaping into the cracks of a wall, there are several ways, depends on who you are.
                  The level of Celerity required to do this is is crazy expensive, obfuscate doesn't reliably work on garou, the delirium wins against presence and dominate, and the protean and vicissitude powers you've mentioned are unacceptably high level.


                  Be correct.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                    Chimerstry can only function if you have a high enough level of Auspex to be able to guess at what an illusion should register as to Garou. Else, it's a transparently paper tiger.

                    I have never seen anything leading to this before so if you could give me a general explanation on how you got to this because the only crossover sensory setup I've seen before for chimestry would be rank of Gift vs Level of discipline and nothing with Auspex.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by PewPew View Post
                      The level of Celerity required to do this is is crazy expensive
                      In addition, the player can
                      spend one blood point to take an extra action up to the
                      number of dots he has in Celerity at the beginning of
                      the relevant turn; this expenditure can go beyond her
                      normal Generation maximum. Any dots used for extra
                      actions, however, are no longer available for Dexterity-
                      related rolls during that turn. These additional actions
                      must be physical

                      Movement: Characters may choose to walk, jog,
                      or run. If walking, a character moves at seven yards/
                      meters per turn. If jogging, a character moves at (12 +
                      Dexterity) yards/meters per turn. If all-out running, a
                      character moves at (20 + [3 x Dexterity]) yards/meters
                      per turn.
                      Characters may move at up to half maximum running
                      speed, then subsequently attack or perform another
                      action; see p. 274 for particulars. Characters may
                      also wish to move while taking another action. This is
                      possible, but each yard or meter moved subtracts one
                      from the other action’s dice pool.
                      Usign V20 rules every vampire with dex 3 and celerity 3 (a tier that you can have since character creation, without expending a single XP) can make (20+[3*6]) meters per turn, which means 38 meters per turn. If he use celerity 3 as an active skill he can make 116 meters per turn.

                      W20
                      MOVEMENT RATES
                      Under most circumstances, an average human
                      being can walk, jog or run at the rate below. Climbing
                      can be found in the Dramatic Systems section.
                      Move Distance per Turn
                      Walk 7 yards
                      Jog 12 + Dexterity yards
                      Run 20 + (3 x Dexterity) yards
                      When a werewolf assumes a different form, his
                      movement rate changes accordingly. Use the new
                      form’s Dexterity, not the Homid form’s Dexterity,
                      when figuring movement rates.
                      Homid: As above
                      Glabro: As above
                      Crinos: On two legs, same as Homid; on all fours, +2
                      yards per turn
                      Hispo: One and one-half times Homid speed
                      Lupus: Twice Homid speed
                      A werewolf with dex 3 in homid form will make 26 meters per turn, 32 meters in crinos, only Hispo and Lupus can outrun a vampire without acitve celerity, and even in lupus form he can run just at 55 meters per turn (40+ [3*5]). Initial rage for a werewolf character can be maximum 5, if you are a Arhoun, which means you can get only 2 extra actions in the first turn of the chasing by using rage, so if you arent' a Arhoun or a Galliard, in lupus form you will run just at 110 meters per turn, and in the next turn you will be outrunned by the vampire who will spend again 3 blood point to gets 3 extra actions.

                      So the only chance for the werewolf is being already in lupus form (unlikely), and being at the same time a galliard or a arhoun, all'other auspices will be outrunned.


                      So numbers at hand I will put my money on the young toreador outrunning the wolf.


                      obfuscate doesn't reliably work on garou
                      Yes it does work, it is a mental power so the Werewolf that lacks MindBlock (level 4 gift,) or Clarity (level 3 gift) or Shell (level 3 gift) will not see a vampire that is using obfuscate.


                      the delirium wins against presence and dominate
                      Source please.
                      Last edited by Undead rabbit; 02-06-2018, 08:20 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                        Chimerstry can only function if you have a high enough level of Auspex to be able to guess at what an illusion should register as to Garou. Else, it's a transparently paper tiger.
                        Nope, the only way a Garou has to pierce an illusion is level 3 gift clarity, other wise the illusion will work just fine.
                        Clarity (Level Three) — This Gift grants the ability
                        to see through fog, pitch darkness, and invisibility, and to
                        recognize illusions
                        . A wind-spirit teaches it.
                        System: The player rolls Perception + Enigmas (difficulty
                        7). If the Stargazer attempts to see someone else’s
                        illusion, the number of successes rolled by the creator must
                        be matched or beaten by the Garou; otherwise, this Gift
                        negates visual penalties.
                        Besides Chimestry is not just an illusion, it creates a "weak reality".

                        V20 Lore of the clans

                        Chimerical illusions take shape from a quasi-substantial
                        essence called maya. Items crafted with the powers of
                        Chimerstry are not real, but they have do have a minimal
                        substance. A chimerical gun has the appropriate weight
                        and heft. A chimerical flag will sway in the wind and will
                        cast a shadow. A construct made of Chimerstry construct
                        cannot affect anything more substantial than a bright light
                        or a slight breeze, but the substance of its creation acts in
                        many ways as though it were an actual, physical item. Still,
                        it is illusory, and cannot be relied upon to provide the
                        same protections or functions as a real object of its type
                        Last edited by Undead rabbit; 02-06-2018, 08:52 PM.

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                        • #13
                          That anaylsis of Celerity is kinda off. It ignores how blood intensive that is, especially since outrunning a werewolf for a few seconds is not sufficient to get them to stop chasing you (and in lupus they'll catch up with you soon enough). Passive Dexterity only adds dice to rolls, it doesn't add to unrolled stats unless stated, so a Celerity X vampire with Dexterity Y has the same exact speed as a werewolf in homid with Dexterity Y, unless the vampire spends blood.

                          It's also comparing a Discipline against innate powers. Speed of Thought is a Rank 1 Gift, and doubles speed for a whole scene. That's the low bar for Garou speed boosts. You're also skipping things like extra points of Rage or other high level boosts from Totems (Garou can start with higher level Gifts with the right Totems).

                          So, yeah, a vampire might be able to burst away from a werewolf for a few seconds... but they'll be caught up with soon enough. The vampire can only keep up 100+ m/turn for less than 20 seconds. A Strider in lupus can easily keep that up for an hour. And the vampire can't keep up that speed and do anything else to protect themselves if it doesn't work.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lian View Post


                            I have never seen anything leading to this before so if you could give me a general explanation on how you got to this because the only crossover sensory setup I've seen before for chimestry would be rank of Gift vs Level of discipline and nothing with Auspex.
                            Werewolf Revised Storyteller's Handbook, page 197. The effect has to be carefully crafted with the assistance of Heightened Senses to account for the Garou perception of reality, or the Garou gets an automatic attempt to prove the falsehood of the "reality" of the illusion in question (since it lacks the reality which Garou know). One could argue that spiritual perceptions could take this even further, since the vampires are almost utterly blind to anything involving spirits and wouldn't be able to fake that part.

                            (Also, the same book, naturally enough, refutes the rusty old Vampire crossover suggestion of 'highest level wins, Rank is Discipline level" as highly misleading)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                              Werewolf Revised Storyteller's Handbook, page 197. The effect has to be carefully crafted with the assistance of Heightened Senses to account for the Garou perception of reality, or the Garou gets an automatic attempt to prove the falsehood of the "reality" of the illusion in question (since it lacks the reality which Garou know). One could argue that spiritual perceptions could take this even further, since the vampires are almost utterly blind to anything involving spirits and wouldn't be able to fake that part.

                              (Also, the same book, naturally enough, refutes the rusty old Vampire crossover suggestion of 'highest level wins, Rank is Discipline level" as highly misleading)
                              OOOh that is neat, but i would read that as auspex 1 is required to make an illusion that doesn't get an automatic perception+alertness roll to see through. Harder to see through but I wouldn't read as impossible especially if you aren't trying to do dumb shit like run into their territory vs carefully avoid it.

                              I really wish there was more active mechanics in tabletop...

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