How would a vampire escape a werewolf?

[Saur Ops Specialist]

OOOh that is neat, but i would read that as auspex 1 is required to make an illusion that doesn't get an automatic perception+alertness roll to see through. Harder to see through but I wouldn't read as impossible especially if you aren't trying to do dumb shit like run into their territory vs carefully avoid it.

I really wish there was more active mechanics in tabletop...

Well, everything that WW set up was rather loose most of the time. Hence why it would make sense that no level of Auspex would really let you pull one over on someone with Pulse of the Invisible active.

[Lian]

Well, everything that WW set up was rather loose most of the time. Hence why it would make sense that no level of Auspex would really let you pull one over on someone with Pulse of the Invisible active.

Eh to me generally it would Make most sense to me that they be actively contested. The Auspex thing seems weird but better than the "You succeed unless they have a higher rank power" though I'd personally probably have Perception+Alterness vs Manip+subterfuge

[Eddie Fiori]

That anaylsis of Celerity is kinda off. It ignores how blood intensive that is, especially since outrunning a werewolf for a few seconds is not sufficient to get them to stop chasing you (and in lupus they'll catch up with you soon enough). Passive Dexterity only adds dice to rolls, it doesn't add to unrolled stats unless stated, so a Celerity X vampire with Dexterity Y has the same exact speed as a werewolf in homid with Dexterity Y, unless the vampire spends blood.

It's also comparing a Discipline against innate powers. Speed of Thought is a Rank 1 Gift, and doubles speed for a whole scene. That's the low bar for Garou speed boosts. You're also skipping things like extra points of Rage or other high level boosts from Totems (Garou can start with higher level Gifts with the right Totems).

So, yeah, a vampire might be able to burst away from a werewolf for a few seconds... but they'll be caught up with soon enough. The vampire can only keep up 100+ m/turn for less than 20 seconds. A Strider in lupus can easily keep that up for an hour. And the vampire can't keep up that speed and do anything else to protect themselves if it doesn't work.

It also ignores that the werewolf too can spend Rage for extra actions... The difference of course being, that when the vampire runs out of blood and the fighting starts, the werewolf begins to regain his Rage.

[PewPew]

Obfuscate is presumably a contested roll of primal urge+perception VS Manipulation and subterfuge. (from a reverse reading of auspex VS the things mages, werewolves and others have)

Now, whilst vampires are never really short on that sweet manipulation+ subterfuge roll, lupus would get that sweet -2 difficulty. They also have a good chance of picking up on the vampire while they're out of range.

As others have pointed out, the blood cost of celerity is horrendous, You could spend nine blood just to bolt a good distance with no garantee that you've escaped. I disagree with someone's point, passive celerity would be added to the run speed if you don't use it actively, but that's not so significant to make a difference.

Oh, yeah. Delirium. Do you know what that is? Because let's face it, dominate and presence are most effective on the people who'd suffer most from delerium. So unless you're hanging out with the rare folk that've got 7 plus willpower, the kind of people who aren't so fun to just use as disposable (You're likely to have nobody, giving the setting of the question) you're going to have a bad time . You can dominate all you want and make everyone love you, but they're facing some kind of universal dread gaze that might as well get one success per empty dot of willpower.

[Matt the Bruins fan]

The level of Celerity required to do this is is crazy expensive, obfuscate doesn't reliably work on garou, the delirium wins against presence and dominate, and the protean and vicissitude powers you've mentioned are unacceptably high level.

Say what now? I don't recall reading that bolded rule anywhere. What does it appear in, The Players' Guide to Werewolves Rule, Vampires Drool?

[PewPew]

There's no need to be rude.

If you use presence and dominate to amass human protectors, unless you lucked out and got the creme of the crop or gave them a last minute shovelheading, they will suffer horribly from the delerium and will be completely ineffective, even if you ruled that each mesmerise success'll act like they had another willpower. If we're talking the 4th dot of dominate or the 6th dot power of love, then I'll be open to having people stand steadfast, but that's really beyond the practical means of most vampires and beyond the scope of the thread, given prior comments on protean 4.

[Reasor]

Using Presence or Dominate directly on the Werewolf would probably be the safest bet. Those don't have counter-disciplines, like Auspex vs Obfuscate or Auspex vs Chimerstry; barring some special anti-mind control Gift that I don't know about, the Lupine would resist with its Mental stats, which they're not exactly famous for.

[Heavy Arms]

There are some anti-mind control Gifts, plus werewolves do have their own Gifts even if they're not starting level ones; with a tendency to go first more.

The idea that werewolves are deficient on Mental traits is off. Wits (which is one of the few that matters to Presence) is very useful for any Garou.

One of the issues with Presence, is that resisting two of its powers requires Courage... which isn't a Trait used by Garou.

Both Disciplines are heavily contested by Willpower more than anything else. Garou don't start with high WP like mages, but they are incentivized to have high ratings of it. It's very unreliable to trust that a Garou is going to be low on Willpower, there are Merits and Gifts for making them better when Willpower is important, and even at least one Totem with a flat -1 difficulty to all WP rolls. There's also the whole "Garou tend to run in packs" thing, while very few Presence and Dominate powers are going to work well in that situation.

[Illithid]

For Vampires dealing with Werewolves; always avoid where possible. Plan, go with a group, stay out of the deep wilds, etc.
Lots of low level disciplines could help, Dread Gaze (Presence 2) Any Dominate (though I think that werewolves can shake it off with a point of Rage) Song of Serenity explicitly brings Werewolves out of Frenzy (And could drop their rage)

Now, the argument has arisen crossing game lines.
PewPew as the OP, do you mean - Vampires (Kindred) Escaping Werewolves (Lupines) - Vampire PCs
Vampires (Leeches) Escaping Werewolves (Garou) - Werewolf PCs
or Vampires (Kindred) Escaping Werewolves (Garou) Using PC rules for Both

Because the answer is very different. Running Kindred versus Garou is a crapshoot on the clan/tribe and disciplines/gifts in existence for the characters. There is no reliable winner on either side without someone in a forum being able to bring up a legitimate counter to the strategy.

[werewolf43]

In my opinion all above is right. There are many fantastic ideas above and personaly I like that. I imagine that every situation is different, there are a lot of factors deciding whou would outrun who. Or outsmart.Garou in W20 get many new gifts, like city running that complicated situation for vampires in chases in cities. But the main question was not how werewolf could catch a vampire but how vampire could escape. Some time ago I thought about Vampires aa high society predators, that changed after reading more about VtM and learning about clans.

I've read years ago a very good short adventure about a vampire who knew that something is coming for him - in this case lupines. And what was obvious he prepared himself for escape. How? He used all the contacts, allies to outsmart them beginning from a simple cleaner who gave them false info. He needed one night of smoke and mirrors and escaped confusing unknown thing in enemies - werewolves.

Un-living thousand years can make a vampire paranoid, experience is adventage, he know where not to go, what kind of people should be avoided, that strange howls are coming troubles. As IIIithid wrote always avoid them. Experience in outsmarting and avoiding is best weapon.

[PewPew]

Mind block and other 4+ powers are out of the equation. They're very specialised/few have them/it's akin to winning the lottery of unluck to have to face the athro/elder with the right tribe/auspice to maybe have the power that's tailored to your demise.

Illithid thid if garou could spend a point of rage to ignore dominate then the cainite race would've been eradicated long ago.

Now, obviously, the best strategy for a kindred to deal with a garou is to avoid them entirely but in case the average kindred somewhere between late neonate-early ancilae has great misfortune in the on his evening stroll in the park and comes across garou who're probably at most adren, probably fostern, then how can the neonate escape? Stuff like "a wise elder would make traps and use backgrounds to never be there ever" is sorta missing the point.

[The Laughing Stranger]

Now, obviously, the best strategy for a kindred to deal with a garou is to avoid them entirely but in case the average kindred somewhere between late neonate-early ancilae has great misfortune in the on his evening stroll in the park and comes across garou who're probably at most adren, probably fostern, then how can the neonate escape? Stuff like "a wise elder would make traps and use backgrounds to never be there ever" is sorta missing the point.

I don't know if we are just talking hypotheticals or what, but crossovers are never truly equitable. A storyteller has to come down on a particular point of view or approach that tends to favor one gameline over another (you can make compromises, but none of the games fit terrible well together). This scenario has a lot of assumptions about it, but those assumptions change based on whether this is this a VtM game or a WtA game.

If this is a VtM game, Garou =/= lupine. Lupines have scary stats but nowhere near the resources or versatility of capital-G Garou. Lupines 'play' better with Kindred, because they generally don't go into cities and any supernatural abilities they have tend to mirror disciplines, rather than being a bunch of funky gifts. A vampire might be able to employ a mental discipline long enough to distract a Lupine and run, or maybe use celerity and managed to get somewhere more populous, where a raging wolf-beast would be manifestly unwelcome. There is nothing to indicate that a Lupine can effortlessly track and slaughter Kindred with unerring accuracy.

If this is a WtA game, the leech probably dies there and then, assuming it is identified as one of the undead (my players don't perform Sense Wyrm or Sense the Unnatural on every random person they meet). It isn't as much of a deal either way, for the Garou: killing a vampire is pretty similar to offing most other fomorii. The only difference is sometimes vampires have sires, coteries or packs that get pissed... but that doesn't really alter the fight in the park.

[Lian]

Mind block and other 4+ powers are out of the equation. They're very specialised/few have them/it's akin to winning the lottery of unluck to have to face the athro/elder with the right tribe/auspice to maybe have the power that's tailored to your demise.

Illithid thid if garou could spend a point of rage to ignore dominate then the cainite race would've been eradicated long ago.

He's assuming any time someone looks at you and gives a a command a werewolf would voluntariy frenzy and have a pack mate right there to fix it!

[Illithid]

He's assuming any time someone looks at you and gives a a command a werewolf would voluntariy frenzy and have a pack mate right there to fix it!

No, I thought (From like 15 years ago when I last played Werewolf) that you could spend a rage point to ignore dominate. Inducing Frenzy in yourself was a completely different matter (I think it was in 1st Ed book antagonists section describing vampire powers)

[Saur Ops Specialist]

No, I thought (From like 15 years ago when I last played Werewolf) that you could spend a rage point to ignore dominate. Inducing Frenzy in yourself was a completely different matter (I think it was in 1st Ed book antagonists section describing vampire powers)

That's not in the crossover section of the Revised ST Handbook, but it does mention that if a Garou rolls five or more successes against the vampire attempting to use Dominate in an extended contest, the vampire can't use Dominate on that Garou, treating it as if the lick botched the attempt.