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Demon: The Fallen / Mummy 20th Anniversary Edition??

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  • #16
    I really need Hunter 20 and D20 in my life. It's hard to mix editions without the update. I wish they'd give us a list of what they do and don't plan on making so I don't sit around waiting to buy the books I need in case they get updates. I don't wanna buy anything without a 20th after Hunter:tR needed revision to mesh with V20. At least if I don't have to that is. I also hate feeling pushed into the new edition. Literally not a single soul in my groups reacted well to V 5th pre-alpha. They begged me not to buy it when I told them I didn't like it either. I don't wanna deal with actual Gehenna nor do I like all the blood book keeping, the coin flip dice, or the dumbing down of attribute.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DamienLS View Post
      I really need Hunter 20 and D20 in my life. It's hard to mix editions without the update. I wish they'd give us a list of what they do and don't plan on making so I don't sit around waiting to buy the books I need in case they get updates. I don't wanna buy anything without a 20th after Hunter:tR needed revision to mesh with V20. At least if I don't have to that is. I also hate feeling pushed into the new edition. Literally not a single soul in my groups reacted well to V 5th pre-alpha. They begged me not to buy it when I told them I didn't like it either. I don't wanna deal with actual Gehenna nor do I like all the blood book keeping, the coin flip dice, or the dumbing down of attribute.

      Well, we did get Hunters Hunted 2. That's sort of like a 20th Anniversary edition of hunter. It's not the same as Reckoning, but hey better than nothing at all, like we have for Mummy, KOTE and Demon.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by acwrig2 View Post


        Well, we did get Hunters Hunted 2. That's sort of like a 20th Anniversary edition of hunter. It's not the same as Reckoning, but hey better than nothing at all, like we have for Mummy, KOTE and Demon.
        Yeah, I just feel like they started 5th edition too early and that it was never meant for OWoD players. I hope they don't drop 4th edition. Also this may seem like a strange question, but I'm not too familiar with KotE, is it entirely standalone or does it mostly work off of vampire? It seems like if it's very much like VtM one could tweak it up to v20 standards more easily than some other games. I use revised clanbooks with V20 for instance.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by DamienLS View Post
          Also this may seem like a strange question, but I'm not too familiar with KotE, is it entirely standalone or does it mostly work off of vampire? It seems like if it's very much like VtM one could tweak it up to v20 standards more easily than some other games. I use revised clanbooks with V20 for instance.
          It is it's own stand-alone game.

          Haven't sat down to read the rules, but skimming over my PDF, I would say that...no, it wouldn't be as simple as just slapping the existing V20 rules and calling it a day. It does appear that KotE has it's own distinct sub-systems that porting V20's stuff wouldn't be a clean fit.

          And my impression is that OPP doesn't seem interested in pursuing a KotE20. Neither is nu-WW, since despite controversial statements and decisions, even THEY are hesitant at the idea of diving into a KotE5e.

          Or rather: "We don't have enough Asian writers on staff to do the material culturally justice" since a long-standing issue with WoD and Asia is the whole thing reeking of...pretty bad Orientalism.

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          • #20
            I'd like to see 20th editions of them. I'd pay good money for them.

            I don't hold out much hope.

            Given the vast number of projects OPP has under it's belt right now, I feel burnout could easily be an issue; combined with the other factors (less popular lines, not the latest standard, the potential need to convince WW), I can see them being less of a prioity.


            Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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            • #21
              I'm a huge fan of Mummy: the Resurrection (not really in to the prior editions, which were bogged down with the whole "boo-hoo, oh, my humanity" shtick that was best kept in Vampire: the Masquerade), and while I wasn't fond of prior editions, I did mine them for more details for playing Shaunkhsen mummies (those with the Lesser Resurrection flaw) and for the spell components listed in 1st Edition, as inspiration to put more plot behind Hekau. Having the Reborn not be something cursed, doomed to utter and unavoidable failure, and actually making them a more positive thing was a refreshing thing that made the game so interesting. I've been holding out hope for 20th Anniversary Edition, and I definitely hope that when they roll out the 5th Edition WoD, that Mummy isn't either cast aside and forgotten or turned back in the direction of its lacking predecessors.
              I also really love Hunter: the Reckoning. I would similarly like to see it get a 20th Annviersary Edition treatment, and then a 5th Edition after that. With this being said, it's good that V20 gave us a Hunters' Hunted 2, as while it now falls under the Reckoning banner, those type of Hunters are best with their own rules, apart from those in Hunter: the Reckoning First Contact was needed, only because there was no Revised Edition version of those kind of hunters. Anything 20th Anniversary (or later) regarding Hunter: First Contact, could focus more on the story fluff, with the mechancis being contained to their own books (which did them more justice than First Contact did, although it did well with what it had).
              Regarding Demon, I thought that it was a great game, but it had the stench of writers, aware that the WoD was ending, trying to make it the be-all to explain everything, which it did poorly. While this scantly matters if you play in a game where the only game is Demon: the Fallen, we all know damned well that a great many games are crossover (and in My years of storytelling and playing, I don't view this as a negative thing - what can I say? I've seen it done well and have done it well), and that even in many demon-only games, you're going to get that storyteller that happens to appreciate the other games and would rather not just leave it with Demon's explanation. In this respect, while I love WoD and really dislike Chronicles of Darkness, I have to respect the greater effort of compatibility that was put into CoD (even if I utterly despise how they use a lack of a coherent backstory and claim that this is to avoid bogging people in metaplot, despite EXALTED having a VERY established history and NOT bogging down people in metaplot - I digress, as I am now ranting). A 20th Anniversary Edition (and later 5th edition) Demon: the Fallen book could do with just a few little changes, so that it doesn't feel like they're trying to make Gaia, the Judges of Ma'at, and a ton of other shit, like Charon, from Wraith, be explained as really being Fallen. (Maybe also deal with how TRUE FAITH works in the Demon setting and what the Fallen feel around such people.)
              Of course, there's also Wraith 20th Anniversary. This project really needs to be completed and made available, at long last. Hell! This book could see a lot of use, not only in Wraith games, but also Demon, Hunter, Mummy, Vampire, Mage, and Werewolf. Maybe Changeling? I don't know Changeling, so I'll leave that there. Sufficed to say, Wraith was and remains a beautiful game, and it deserves to see a 20th Anniversary Edition game (and then, in time, 5th Edition) become available. There are too many people that will never know the wonders of Shadow Guiding.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Lord Vil View Post
                Of course, there's also Wraith 20th Anniversary. This project really needs to be completed and made available, at long last. Hell! This book could see a lot of use, not only in Wraith games, but also Demon, Hunter, Mummy, Vampire, Mage, and Werewolf. Maybe Changeling? I don't know Changeling, so I'll leave that there. Sufficed to say, Wraith was and remains a beautiful game, and it deserves to see a 20th Anniversary Edition game (and then, in time, 5th Edition) become available. There are too many people that will never know the wonders of Shadow Guiding.
                Uhm...Wraith does have a 20th Anniversary version. In fact, the Backer PDF went out for that a few months ago. It's still going to be a bit before it's available for everyone, but it's closer to completion then it's ever been.

                And Changeling 20th Anniversary has been officially out for everyone for about a year.

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                • #23
                  Yeah, I'm actually looking at my hard copy of C20 right now, and my pdf of Wr20 is open in Foxit as well.

                  P.S. Charon from Wraith is never explained as one of the Fallen, that's a dire misread.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by loomer View Post
                    Yeah, I'm actually looking at my hard copy of C20 right now, and my pdf of Wr20 is open in Foxit as well.

                    P.S. Charon from Wraith is never explained as one of the Fallen, that's a dire misread.
                    Actually the Author who wrote the Demon section explained he never intended the Wraith Charon to be the Demon, only to inherit the name as a sort of title. Nhudri on the other hand seems to be Nhudriel.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Lord Vil View Post
                      Regarding Demon, I thought that it was a great game, but it had the stench of writers, aware that the WoD was ending, trying to make it the be-all to explain everything, which it did poorly.
                      Not really. It only is a problem in the Storyteller doesn't like the idea of Creation coming first. WtA and Mage cosmologies fit perfectly after the Fallen marched into the Pit. You have to remember, there were infinite layers of reality prior that moment. Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, while on another level, billions of years of evolution produced the first human primates. The world existed as both physical and metaphysical and it wasn't until the War that these different realities began to slam together.

                      One can easily flip it around and go with the standard WtA cosmology as being the end all be all. Demon can fit in it rather easy. It just takes a bit of plotting.

                      Originally posted by Lord Vil View Post
                      In this respect, while I love WoD and really dislike Chronicles of Darkness, I have to respect the greater effort of compatibility that was put into CoD (even if I utterly despise how they use a lack of a coherent backstory and claim that this is to avoid bogging people in metaplot, despite EXALTED having a VERY established history and NOT bogging down people in metaplot - I digress, as I am now ranting).
                      Completely agree. The lack of a foundation in the setting of CoD completely turns me off from much of the game. Unfortunately, it was an over reaction on the part of WW in response to critics of WoD's tangle metaplots. Maybe they knew there was no way to please everyone, so don't even bother. I think it was this thinking that lead them to take Descent in the direction it went.

                      Originally posted by Lord Vil View Post
                      Demon: the Fallen book could do with just a few little changes, so that it doesn't feel like they're trying to make Gaia, the Judges of Ma'at, and a ton of other shit, like Charon, from Wraith, be explained as really being Fallen. (Maybe also deal with how TRUE FAITH works in the Demon setting and what the Fallen feel around such people.)
                      Gaia is an angel, not a Fallen. The Malhim were the first shifters. The Judges could be Ophanim, if we really wanted to go deep into the cosmology. If a Storyteller chooses Demon as the base for the metaplot, those are perfectly fine assumptions and do not undermine Werewolf. Or it can be flipped around. It's really up to the person running the game. Just because something is in a book doesn't mean it has to be followed. And as already pointed out, Charon the Halaku is not Charon the Wraith.

                      As for True Faith, already taken care of. They have a faith potential of five.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by thespiraleffect View Post

                        Not really. It only is a problem in the Storyteller doesn't like the idea of Creation coming first. WtA and Mage cosmologies fit perfectly after the Fallen marched into the Pit. You have to remember, there were infinite layers of reality prior that moment. Adam and Eve were the first man and woman, while on another level, billions of years of evolution produced the first human primates. The world existed as both physical and metaphysical and it wasn't until the War that these different realities began to slam together.
                        This reminds me of failed attempts to sell people on the Wyld as an interesting place in Exalted. Is it a seething, infinite space of limitless chaos that can allow for anything? Well, yes, but it also often gets presented without structure, making all the hype so much hot air. It ultimately means nothing and has no draw of note compared to the rich tapestry of drama and weirdness that you get inside Creation. So, too, does the "layers of reality" explanation fail to produce any form of significant heat; it's a meaningless buzzword that amounts to the same mutual incompatibility that all the other games have for each other when playing to their own themes. Just because the explanation tried to eat something bigger than its head doesn't really make it an accomplishment in piecing together a scattered whole; it just failed in a more verbose fashion.

                        One can easily flip it around and go with the standard WtA cosmology as being the end all be all. Demon can fit in it rather easy. It just takes a bit of plotting.
                        Most notably by demons being unreliable due to being stuck outside of all realities for a long measure of time and fused with human vessels. Their memories were always meant to be rather sketchy; the combination of that and whatever scraps of faith they latched onto in their human body makes for a rather unsettled and tattered view of the cosmos.

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                        • #27
                          Just because you don't like something doesn't make it a failure. Demon does a fairly good job connecting the dots. Maybe some don't like how they did it, but it wasn't exactly an easy job either.

                          It's funny. I can remember years ago how much Vampire-centric players hated WtA cosmology for telling them what's what. Players are perfectly fine with the WtA line hyper-explaining their world view as canon and all the other splats are swimming in ignorance.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by thespiraleffect View Post
                            Just because you don't like something doesn't make it a failure. Demon does a fairly good job connecting the dots. Maybe some don't like how they did it, but it wasn't exactly an easy job either.
                            There weren't any dots to connect in the first place; any picture that you end up with is going to require a lot of your own work to draw, with no particular framework or help given on what the end product is supposed to look like. You don't get much from playing the "you can't comprehend the true shape" card and then trying to explain said true shape.

                            It's funny. I can remember years ago how much Vampire-centric players hated WtA cosmology for telling them what's what. Players are perfectly fine with the WtA line hyper-explaining their world view as canon and all the other splats are swimming in ignorance.
                            W:tA doesn't offer nearly so many words to qualify as "hyper-explaining"; the hierarchy of spirits is extremely loose, the concept of "this is the soul of the world" is not exactly complicated, even when you get into how the world broke. The Umbra was custom-made for Werewolf, and its various regions are great with a self-contained setup that explains its own basic conceit. Other games didn't have to try and piggyback on this, and quite frankly, shouldn't have; it wasn't a setup made to support their themes from the ground up, and really didn't need to end up complicated by their inclusion.
                            Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 04-12-2018, 09:11 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              Actually the Author who wrote the Demon section explained he never intended the Wraith Charon to be the Demon, only to inherit the name as a sort of title. Nhudri on the other hand seems to be Nhudriel.
                              As I said - he's never explained as one of the Fallen, it's a misreading of the text that gives people the idea that he was.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by loomer View Post

                                As I said - he's never explained as one of the Fallen, it's a misreading of the text that gives people the idea that he was.
                                Probably not a misreading, but more people just jumping to conclusions.

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