How Would You Do D:TF?

[Crowley]

I'd get rid of the problematic fluff regarding the Earthbound and non-Abrahamic religions.

in that sense id make the game closer to Scion... i been planning a game of Demon involving the Old Gods

[HardestadtTheEvenYounger]

Problematic? All the religions that the Earthbound manipulated are dead, no one cares if you're insulting Zeus or Mithra. And it was made clear that Buddhist and Taoist monks did as much to combat the Earthbound in the East as Christianity in the West.

[Dogstar]

Id translate In Nomine to WoD system instead.

[Camilla]

Problematic? All the religions that the Earthbound manipulated are dead, no one cares if you're insulting Zeus or Mithra. And it was made clear that Buddhist and Taoist monks did as much to combat the Earthbound in the East as Christianity in the West.

Um, I actually am a Roman Polytheist....it's a small fringe religion but it does exist. Plus, what about mainstream polytheist religions like Shinto and Hinduism? Are they evil Earthbound creations?

Having grown up in a fundamentalist household in the heart of Appalachia, I really do not like the tired cliche of "all pagan deities are really evil demons" because I have had such accusations thrown at me, by my own father no less!

Plus, the Christians probably wouldn't like the fluff that states that their religion was literally created by Lucifer.

Yeah, it's just a game but if you're going to complain about problematic material in the World of Darkness, you'll have a field day with Demon: The Fallen and its material regarding the Earthbound.

[kalinara]

I'm a little weird but I actually prefer the idea of the Demons having static powers as opposed to dynamic magic, as Mages do, as I feel that fits with the idea that Angels/Demons were created to a specific purpose and constraints. I would like a clearer system though to allow demons more ways to develop specific new abilities or to cross into other Houses' abilities without necessarily eating another demon, because so much of the Elohim identity is bound up in their role and their purpose.

I certainly sympathize with people who aren't comfortable with the idea of Earthbound (or pre-Fall Angels) as the deities of other religions, but there are many games that use a polytheistic setting, such as Scion or even Werewolf, that I feel like having one game to explore Christian-inspired themes such as damnation and redemption in a Christian-inspired cosmos isn't a bad thing. Since polytheism and other gods exist, in some form, then there does need to be some kind of explanation as to how that works with the game's established origin story. And the Bible and earlier texts do provide something of a precedent for conceptualizing others' gods as "demons", i.e. the Canaanites' Baal. But this does require a lot of sensitivity on the part of the Storyteller to clearly distinguish "what is true for this particular setting" from "what is true for the real world" and keep in mind their players' comfort level.

That said, I feel like there would be room to explore alternate ways to use the Fallen, for players and storytellers who would prefer not to use a Christian-inspired setting and that should be included as well.

Perhaps they can explore the roles that demonic figures play in other religions (though I feel like that could also go very badly unless there are practitioners of those religions on the writing staff), or by playing with the idea of Demons as entities of faith and belief divorced from a "true" origin story. It occurs to me that there are a lot of interesting parallels between the returning Fallen and the Arcadian Sidhe in Changeling (creatures powered by/created from belief, faith or dreams returning from elsewhere and embodying human hosts), which could perhaps be used to create a more neutral setting or cosmology.

[Prometheas]

Maybe they just stole worshipers from existing religions by flaunting their "Miracles". I imagine a demon who use to be an angle of thunder could pull off a decent enough "Zues" or "Thor" impression that a layman wouldn't know the difference(or just smite anyone pointing out the truth with thunderbolts)

[moogle001]

Obviously for the Lores I'd use my Miracles and Blasphemy system; worked pretty well for the two campaigns I ran. Always appreciate outside feedback.

Demon the Fallen is ridiculously easy to take world-wide and lose the Abrahamic perspective. The fiction establishes that reality has/had many layers that were all true expressions of Creation, hence why evolution and the Biblical genesis were both correct at the same time. Other creation stories can just be different layers that existed before the decline of Creation into our pathetic four dimensions plus the Umbra. Of the demons that remember anything of the First Age, those that espouse the Abrahamic view of the First Age due so because of their mortal host's influence on their memories.

[Kalendeer]

There's a game for those who want to play with polytheist religions.

It's called Scions.

And it's actually somewhat compatible with DtF since it uses the same dice pools, more or less.

DtF is obviously a game about the Abrahamic mythos and it's insulting basically every religion. Remember that christianity and judaism were created by Lucifer ? I feel it's really unfair to say that DtF is "problematic" because its monotheist as its core. It's like saying "vampire is problematic because they drink blood".

[moogle001]

DtF is obviously a game about the Abrahamic mythos and it's insulting basically every religion. Remember that christianity and judaism were created by Lucifer ? I feel it's really unfair to say that DtF is "problematic" because its monotheist as its core. It's like saying "vampire is problematic because they drink blood".

I know quite a number Christians that enjoyed the take on Abrahamic creationism, and there's been so many variations of angel/demon lore in popular urban fantasy that I doubt any fans of the genre find DtF insulting. Certainly that was not the writers' intent. Regardless, my point is fans who also enjoy exploring other cultures should find it very easy to hack to include divine beings of other faiths without harming any of the game's themes.

[Kalendeer]

By "insulting" I meant that those who want to be offended will be offended. Which is unfair because being offended because pagan gods are demons in this book is in line with the whole concept of DtF.

[HardestadtTheEvenYounger]

Also, I feel that it's worth pointing out that it's not a sure thing that Lucifer invented judaism or Christianity. For instance, maybe Lucifer could have felt God taking a human shape in Jesus Christ and approached HIm to understand why.

[Leandro16]

Tecnically i would just import Demon the descent as i don¨t want Abrahamic religions to be the absolute true of WoD and I will make the classic demons still be there as spirits and eldrith beings of previous universes who almost descended callled the Qli and that need to fuse with a soul to materialize themselves outside a caul.They are the reason why the baali have daimonion.

The objetive of the Qli is to destroy the universe or rule it as a hellhole as a vengance for the pain of the caul.Some of them are corrupted by the experiences of the human soul they fused wich changes their personality but this isnt the usual.The apocaliptic form is really their true form as beings from others universe that is why they feel so alien.

[Lundgren]

Also, I feel that it's worth pointing out that it's not a sure thing that Lucifer invented judaism or Christianity. For instance, maybe Lucifer could have felt God taking a human shape in Jesus Christ and approached HIm to understand why.

And that's why I think Christians have an easier time to mod DtF to something palatable for them, than for say pagans. Tossing out the idea that Lucifer would had, for example, manipulating a poor carpenter son into thinking he was the messiah, and say Lucifer just lie when he claims to be behind Christianity isn't much of a stretch.

Tossing out the idea that all other religions are just Earth-bounds is quite a bigger step.

[moogle001]

Also, I feel that it's worth pointing out that it's not a sure thing that Lucifer invented judaism or Christianity. For instance, maybe Lucifer could have felt God taking a human shape in Jesus Christ and approached HIm to understand why.

In the novels Lucifer claims that he did meet Jesus, but that he didn't appear to be supernatural. At least, Lucifer explicitly stated he could sense no evidence of the Creator in Jesus. Granted, he's not a very reliable source...

Where did the idea of the Morningstar inventing Christianity come from? Maybe I've forgotten it, but all I remember is Lucifer taking credit for religion's declining influence in order to combat the Earthbound.

Tossing out the idea that all other religions are just Earth-bounds is quite a bigger step.

DtF does NOT assert all non-Abrahamic religions are the result of demons. It does claim that many religions in the Roman era and beforehand had cults for the Earthbound. Sure, that means many aspects of Hellenism may be tied to the Earthbound, but that doesn't mean ALL Hellenism does. And I'm pretty sure DtF spent no time exploring the history of other continents or their faiths.

[HardestadtTheEvenYounger]

Lucifer shows up in novels?