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How Would You Do D:TF?

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  • #31
    Oh yes, he presents himself to one (maybe two?) of the main characters in the Trilogy of the Fallen. Great books. Made me fall in love with Greg Stolze long before I discovered Unknown Armies.


    Demon: The Fallen CoD/X20 Revamp
    Mage: The Ascension Arch-Spheres
    Mage: The Ascension CoD/X20 Revamp

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
      And that's why I think Christians have an easier time to mod DtF to something palatable for them, than for say pagans. Tossing out the idea that Lucifer would had, for example, manipulating a poor carpenter son into thinking he was the messiah, and say Lucifer just lie when he claims to be behind Christianity isn't much of a stretch.

      Tossing out the idea that all other religions are just Earth-bounds is quite a bigger step.
      I still don't see how that's a problem. Each universe comes with it's own rules. In scions there are a lot of gods and it's very unclear if God exists or not... and no one complains about that, because it's just the way Scion is. So why should DtF be "palatable" to pagans ? A roleplaying game universe is fictionnal. I'm an atheist myself and playing in a setting where God or gods are a thing isn't problematic because that says absolutly nothing about what I think IRL about those religions.

      Yes, I like the idea that in DtF lore all gods would be Earthbound cults. When I play my ancient roman Scion of Mithras, however, I have no problem reading Yahvé as some phoenician god who went rogue and decided to do his own thing. In another vampire campaign God and Caïn never existed, in another one Caïn is a thing.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Kalendeer View Post
        I still don't see how that's a problem. Each universe comes with it's own rules. In scions there are a lot of gods and it's very unclear if God exists or not... and no one complains about that, because it's just the way Scion is. So why should DtF be "palatable" to pagans ? A roleplaying game universe is fictionnal. I'm an atheist myself and playing in a setting where God or gods are a thing isn't problematic because that says absolutly nothing about what I think IRL about those religions.

        Yes, I like the idea that in DtF lore all gods would be Earthbound cults. When I play my ancient roman Scion of Mithras, however, I have no problem reading Yahvé as some phoenician god who went rogue and decided to do his own thing. In another vampire campaign God and Caïn never existed, in another one Caïn is a thing.
        Its not a problem for me, and while I wouldn't like the changes they want to the setting (I prefer that all religions is "false religions" created by different Elohims, fallen or not), I can understand why it is to some others.

        My comment is that the game isn't subverting Abrahamic religions in the same way it is subverting Pagan religions. Some religious people have problem with fiction that doesn't follow -- or can easily be fan-patched into following -- their interpretation of their religion.

        Changing DtF because some religious people don't like how religions are handled, and they would have lost me instead. This atheist also want DtF to be a game based on Abrahamic lore. They are asking for a different game, where Scion may or may not be a good choice.

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        • #34
          I would solve Paganism very simply. Exactly how he was treated by the Church until the 5th Council. Like the First Revelation.

          These are partial truths understandable the local cultural created by the true angels in the service of God to prepare the Man for the Truth of Christ. No connection with demons and as corruptible as Christianity or Buddhism.

          Thus Paganism would be the First Revelation, Monotheism the Second, and Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam which are religions seen as the truth in Demon, as the Third Revelation.

          It does not strike me as an offensive approach.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
            It does not strike me as an offensive approach.
            My guess is that some still would find it not palatable, as their religion still would be a false religion. While not "the evil enemy" it would still make their religion a lie (and hey, it isn't like god and the loyalist is good guys in DtF).

            I think if minimizing the amount of offense, the book probably would need to have a bunch of potential back-stories, going from "yup, the bible is pretty much correct" to "some of the gods believe themselves to be angels in service of a creator, and their leaders -- the arch angels -- claims there are talking with that creator." The later pretty much putting non-christian gods on the same level as the angels and removes god from the equation.

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            • #36
              If I’m correct that the 6th great maelstrom, spirit nukes etc were responsible for freeing the Fallen, what event could now make that happen as most 20th anniversary lines have downplayed these events?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Monkey-x View Post
                If I’m correct that the 6th great maelstrom, spirit nukes etc were responsible for freeing the Fallen, what event could now make that happen as most 20th anniversary lines have downplayed these events?

                Changeling had a major Dark Resurgence when many Thallain and Dark Kin returned to the world. WOuld make sense that they were tied together.

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                • #38
                  As far as real world events go, there haven't been any wars or natural disasters in the 21st century that stand out enough from the normal "background chatter" to be a likely cause for another great maelstrom in the Underworld. Even the spikes with massive death tolls like the 2004 Indian tsunami, the 2010 Haitian earthquake, and the ongoing civil war in Syria are relatively minor compared to WWI and WWII.

                  One noteworthy unique thing that did happen without precedent was ʻOumuamua passing through the solar system, the first-ever interstellar object that was observed to do so. Possibly that could be used as a precipitating event.

                  Likewise, maybe the whole Mayan Calendar hysteria was actually a prophetic countdown to the barriers keeping the Fallen sealed away from the world crumbling on their own, with no specific trigger event needed.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Monkey-x View Post
                    If I’m correct that the 6th great maelstrom, spirit nukes etc were responsible for freeing the Fallen, what event could now make that happen as most 20th anniversary lines have downplayed these events?
                    Well, since the mid 40's to the 90's, over 2000 nukes have been detonated on earth. Those could have created cracks in the prison. Then add enough time to make the cracks exploitable and found to fit when they should begin to escape.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
                      Well, since the mid 40's to the 90's, over 2000 nukes have been detonated on earth. Those could have created cracks in the prison. Then add enough time to make the cracks exploitable and found to fit when they should begin to escape.
                      It wasn't just Nuclear detonations that freed the Fallen, it was because Ravnos and 3 Fate Heavy Bodhisattvas were blown away by Spirit Dampening Neutron Bombs and Sun Beams in the middle of a Storm of literal reality warping nightmare, while at the same time Enoch was blown away by a Relic Nuclear Bomb, Doissetep was eradicated releasing Archmage level energies, and a Mad Scientist traveled to the mouth of the Abyss through the Labyrinthe and detonated a bomb there for observation. All of this coalesced, and also I think it was implied Cappadocius' wraith was also performing rituals in the underworld at the time, and shredded the souls of the Dead, Cracked the Seal of the Fallen, Destroyed the City of Amenti and killed Osiris only to have him merge with the Web of Faith, and shredded the Enlightened Avatars and embedded them into the Avatar storm in the Gauntlet.

                      Its not just Nuclear Explosions weaken the Seal of the Abyss, there is context.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        Its not just Nuclear Explosions weaken the Seal of the Abyss, there is context.
                        The thread is "How Would You Do D:TF?" So the answer can be as supernatural or mundane as you want. So when X isn't a thing anymore because of Y, there are as I see it three options. Make X still be a thing. Make up Z instead. Or go with something from the real world that can be used.

                        After all, context is context sensitive

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Lundgren View Post
                          The thread is "How Would You Do D:TF?" So the answer can be as supernatural or mundane as you want. So when X isn't a thing anymore because of Y, there are as I see it three options. Make X still be a thing. Make up Z instead. Or go with something from the real world that can be used.

                          After all, context is context sensitive
                          Okay that's fair if its a full on change to the setting. So are we wanting to have demons slowly leak out over the last century due to nuclear weapons? I would recommend that initial Godmachine Pain Prophet story in the 1st New World of Darkness book. Maybe the Manhattan project sealed the explosion as a ritual by stating I am become Shiva Destroyer of Worlds. I can see that being a ritual made to call upon the Final House in their role as Keepers of the Underworld to give each bomb a power to and authority to weaken the Seal of the Abyss. Maybe Lucifer or Archdukes slipped occult fundamentals in the initial prototypes of the Americans and later the Germans, and when the Russians assimilated the German Bomb research to speed up their own, they will all be sealing their bombs as rituals to harm the Seal.

                          So maybe each time a bomb was used a high level demon slips out of the Abyss and lesser demons slip out of cracks over time. The issue is the Demons then need to find a vessel able to channel their level of Faith, which is hard to find, people like Auspicious Children, Saints, and Awakened Mortals. Or they are seeking refuge in a nonhuman vessel and become Earthbound.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

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                          • #43
                            Personally, I never liked the idea of the Fallen having fully formed organizations, as presented in the D:tF. Regardless of which, I think the cracks in the system should be a fairly recent thing, or at least they haven't been exploited until recently. While the cracks could start to show up it the 40's, and the main fluctuation could come in the 70s and 80s, the Fallen could still have started to show up in the last decade or so. If basing it on nuclear tests, not having them anymore could explain the urgency from the demon lords. As within a few decades more, the prison might be tightly sealed again.

                            I think an important design decision that would have to be made early on is if the Fallen are organized on earth, or if they are new to the world and don't really know the status of others that are out in the world.

                            But then, D:tF is also actually the only splat I like from the cWoD (and D:tD is probably the splat I dislike the most from nWoD/CoD). So my opinions is most likely an outlier (except probably the "I want the mechanics to support to separate the Angel and the Human part, if the body dies and the Angel finds a new host, you only create the new host"). I would personally either run it as a fairly stand-alone game where most of the other stuff don't exist, or part of nWoD where all of these cWoD stuff also don't exist.

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                            • #44
                              I'd houserule that the Fallen left their supernatural powers behind when they left the Abyss and took human bodies. Justify the existence of yet another supernatural game by making it about ordinary humans who just have memories of a shared history. Never, ever answer the question of whether they're ordinary people who suffer from a shared delusion that they're fallen angels.

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                              • #45
                                So Reconsidering the metaplot of release, the world has broadly seen a rise in Fanaticism in the last couple of decades. One could make an argument FAITH has hit a level that hasn't had in centuries. Thus why more demons now than since Medieval times..

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