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If you could Revise CWOD Cosmology

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
    Yeah, it's a rather strong suggestion. Qaf it's mentioned by M20 as the source of the Web.


    Is that stated or it's a deduction?
    None of the rotes for manipulating them use Spirit, AND they give Gauntlet ratings for various Sector types in the web. Correspondence, Prime, and Forces are considered One level higher for hte mage in the web.


    That's an interesting distinction.

    M20 has Spirits as native, though: See Web Spirits in the spirit hierarchy. Memophores are listed as spirits (minions) created by memes, and have spirit traits. You say Infomorphs aren't very different: I already admited that the Dreaming was an Umbra in everything but name - by that rule of three chimera can't prove Infomorphs aren't spirits...

    Now, can you alter/create/control Infomorphs with Forces alone in Digital Web 2.0?, Are Infomorphs outside Spirit scope the same way animals or humans are?. Because that would be something...I need more than a few cosmetic differences to call something different (and to regret M20 refused to follow that model).
    OK here's where it gets complicated. YOu can make a PURE AI that will live in the Digital Web with just Mind... OR you can BIND a spirit into that AI and make into a "Daemon" which is BASICALLY a Fetish.





    If not being an onion it's all you require to say that a place it's different from the Umbra then every single Realm and Zone follows your requisites.
    Most Realms I can think of fall into the "onion" paradigm, they are all just shoved somewhere in the middle layer. Stygia, Horizon realms, the various Tribal homelands... now places like Hollow earth have been treated in the past to be sort of a random just side connection like the Digital web.. I wish it would go bakc to that. That there were all sorts of weird places you could get to via wierd means and not "Everything is spirit"

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Lian
      None of the rotes for manipulating them use Spirit, AND they give Gauntlet ratings for various Sector types in the web. Correspondence, Prime, and Forces are considered One level higher for hte mage in the web.
      That none of the effects that influence the place are Spirit based it's a very good argument - albeit I would have preffered a statement like in 1rst edition. Some Realms influence certain Spheres (Dark Umbra/Entropy ; The Flux/Prime) and some realms do have a Gauntlet (the Shard/Shadow Realms). Still, I can concede the point - the Web, as it can be deduced by it's properties, it's not strictly a place of spirit and it doesn't have to be part of the Umbra.

      That's neat, we need more of that.

      Most Realms I can think of fall into the "onion" paradigm, they are all just shoved somewhere in the middle layer. Stygia, Horizon realms, the various Tribal homelands... now places like Hollow earth have been treated in the past to be sort of a random just side connection like the Digital web.. I wish it would go bakc to that. That there were all sorts of weird places you could get to via wierd means and not "Everything is spirit"
      Zones, in the 1rst book about the Umbra (that was from Werewolf), were stated to be places that can be accessed by the Umbra but don't follow the same rules as the Umbra.

      This wasn't explored a lot, but it had potential: Obviously Garou would think that Zones are a part of the Umbra: 1º because they think everything should be part of the Umbra (Earth it's "The Realm", after all); 2º because they have few other means of entering different worlds (and, as the protectors of The Realm, they seldomly need to do that). Mage could have explored all the Zones as trully distinct stuff.

      One thing I liked about CoD it's that the Astral Umbra was accessed from the inside of the mage, and then you were able to access the universal subconscious from your own subconscious - that it's onion-ish indeed but the idea that the first layer it's yourself, and then you go "inwards" to seek the commonplace with humanity it's an interesting distinction, I think.

      Another big deal would have been to explore Outer Space as Outer Space. In the first edition the limits between Umbra and Space weren't clear, as Mage was always picky with the idea that the Void was created by the Void Engineer's Consensual Reality. In Revised Outer Space was outright murdered. However, I find that even if you want OS to have been created by the Consensus (a fact that by all means should be left as a mistery for the ST to decide) it's more ominous to have it as a potentially infinite area rather than a clear and empty boundary - and if it isn't as empty as the Technocracy would want that would only reinforce the idea that they don't control the Consensus as much as they would want to (which should be good for Consensus-theorists, as those who control the Consensus under this theory should be able to redefine all of reality and erase the opposition - Technocrats aren't capable off that).
      Last edited by Aleph; 06-29-2018, 10:18 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Aleph View Post

        That none of the effects that influence the place are Spirit based it's a very good argument - albeit I would have preffered a statement like in 1rst edition. Some Realms influence certain Spheres (Dark Umbra/Entropy ; The Flux/Prime) and some realms do have a Gauntlet (the Shard/Shadow Realms). Still, I can concede the point - the Web, as it can be deduced by it's properties, it's not strictly a place of spirit and it doesn't have to be part of the Umbra.

        That's neat, we need more of that.
        [/QUOTE]

        My read is from 2.0 which may be completely superceded by 3.0 if its still on the calendar is that its not a realm of spirit. You CAN get there from the Umbra but.. you can get to the material world from the Umbra too. I kind of wish the Dreaming Didn't have spirit requirements to interact with if it was a pure realm of Mind. But maybe I'm getting too COD.

        IF the shard/shade realms had nothing to do with Spirit and Were just accessable and wierd places via spheres Thus why the MATTER Focused SOE are the only people who care about Hollow Earth etc.

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        • #19
          Id create a way Garou could "Adopt" kin or ordinary humans and confer the garou nature on them.


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          • #20
            If I could, I'd address the issues involved in the conflicting metaphysics of the gamelines. The Triat, the Judo-Christian God, consensus and reality, the Dreaming and the Umbra, the alternate cosmologies of the KotE and the Ivory Kingdoms, etc.

            Mind you, I wouldn't just hand that info to players but a firm grasp of how it fits together helps a ST keep track of how things could interact.


            Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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            • #21
              I feel things could just be less cluttered and themes could feel more cohesive if you condensed the superfluous layers of many, though not all, of the spirit worlds. So Chimera would be the same as the Spirits the Werewolves see. Trods could be the way Changelings differentiate their interaction with the Dreaming, and finally no more dissonance between say the Nunnehi and the Kithain. And the Inanimae all of sudden fit a lot better into the cosmology of other being. They could finally start say popping up in the Middle Kingdom. And maybe have more of an emphasis that while the Triat Exists natural spirits and selfish spirits are free to align themselves how they choose. I would perhaps steal the idea of the Claimed from NWOD and make them a problem seperate from the Fomori.


              It is a time for great deeds!

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              • #22
                I would mostly want kind of what FallenEco said, but focus mostly on defusing the certanty of WtA lore. Less on the cosmology itself as introducing falsehood, contradictions, and options to the Garou paradigm, which seems to be the main line that causes issues.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Beckett View Post
                  I would mostly want kind of what FallenEco said, but focus mostly on defusing the certanty of WtA lore. Less on the cosmology itself as introducing falsehood, contradictions, and options to the Garou paradigm, which seems to be the main line that causes issues.
                  Personally I use for Garou something who is hinted to be canon. Ancestors don't have perfect memories and any who had Derangements by instance still have it. As for the other spirits the Totems have other things to do than answer questions about history and even their memories are strange and alien.

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                  • #24
                    I've said these setting hacks many times before, but might as well re-iterate them since it is germane to the topic of the thread.

                    I'd get rid of Kuei-Jin and have East Asia dominated by Cainites, and Demon: The Fallen also gets declared non-canon as well.

                    Also, I'd get rid of the metaplot in its entirety, and reset everything back to 1E and early 2E.

                    If I were in charge of WW, I'd pay the extra money to bring back Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game and integrate it into the World of Darkness, along with Sailor Moon and Highlander.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Camilla View Post
                      I've said these setting hacks many times before, but might as well re-iterate them since it is germane to the topic of the thread.

                      I'd get rid of Kuei-Jin and have East Asia dominated by Cainites, and Demon: The Fallen also gets declared non-canon as well.

                      Also, I'd get rid of the metaplot in its entirety, and reset everything back to 1E and early 2E.

                      If I were in charge of WW, I'd pay the extra money to bring back Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game and integrate it into the World of Darkness, along with Sailor Moon and Highlander.


                      IF we re going that far I'd go so far in the reverse. Make a Completely different Cosmologically incomptable "Vampire" type through out the world.. Wan Kuei, Native American types, Even a STRONG implication Cainites Destroyed the Native European "Vampires" that's why they have such a hate on for "clanless' vampires.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ganonso View Post

                        Personally I use for Garou something who is hinted to be canon. Ancestors don't have perfect memories and any who had Derangements by instance still have it. As for the other spirits the Totems have other things to do than answer questions about history and even their memories are strange and alien.
                        It's not even that so much, as so much of the spiritual side of the Garou's beliefs are fact rather than belief. There is no possibility that totems and spirits could be demons or angels, for instance, or other things than what the Garou know they are.


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Beckett View Post

                          It's not even that so much, as so much of the spiritual side of the Garou's beliefs are fact rather than belief. There is no possibility that totems and spirits could be demons or angels, for instance, or other things than what the Garou know they are.
                          I understand. Personally that doesn't disturb me because the other games have spirits and ghosts be simply things that exist in the world.

                          Now Gaïa (and perhaps the heavy hitters of the cosmology) could totally be something else. Demon the Fallen talk about the Werewolves being Angelic Creation and Gaïa being the Seraph of the Sixth House.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Ana Mizuki View Post
                            To use a weird allegory, cWoD is like piling a bunch of fantasy books on to of one another, it is dense and the more you have to make sure it doesn't fall over. NWoD is like legos, sure you can build it like the instructions, or you can build what you like. I love the setting of cWoD a lot, but I prefer the looser worldbuilding since it is easier to wing things.
                            Thank you! I finally wrapped my head around WHY I have a huge preference for cWoD over nWoD/CofD: I hate Legos! Seriously, building with them, using instructions or not, gives me anxiety. I guess maybe the uniformity of the pieces in the chaos bothers me in some way.


                            "Everybody is a book of blood; wherever we're opened, we're red." - Clive Barker, The Books of Blood

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                            • #29
                              Personally. i like to think that God pulled a doctor manhattan and other beings had to take her role.


                              Forum's Official's Joker and Trickster. Pardon my bad english, aint my first language (I Speak Spanish).
                              ST: DtF, HtR, WtO, MtA
                              Signature Chars: Crowley (hakalu), Joe The Nuwisha (WtA)
                              Changelings: be afraid of the Technocracian High Five of Doom

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Crowley View Post
                                Personally. i like to think that God pulled a doctor manhattan and other beings had to take her role.

                                So someone traveled back in time that caused a universe reboot and God showed up and took out a sizable period of time because she thought it was funny?

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