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  • Fallen & Wraith

    Well as we all know, Wraith 20th edition is out and it’s quite interesting however I was surprised to not find any mention of the fallen at all especially regarding the fallen relationship with Haven and in particular the Slayers with their crusade to the underworld and their close resemblance to the ferrymen which are theorized to be the souls of the Nephilim claimed by the slayers during the grand experiment.
    Could anyone find an explanation why or maybe did I miss something in the book?



  • #2
    If I remember correctly, there was some controversy when Demon was released, with people claiming it retconned and explained a lot of the other line's lore with a simple "Angels did it" which the fans of those lines took umbrage with. I'd assume they're mostly going to keep the lines separate going forward. If you're playing Wraith, then the origins of the Shadowlands and the Ferryman are a mystery. If you're playing Demon, then the Angels of the Seventh House created it and them.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post
      If I remember correctly, there was some controversy when Demon was released, with people claiming it retconned and explained a lot of the other line's lore with a simple "Angels did it" which the fans of those lines took umbrage with. I'd assume they're mostly going to keep the lines separate going forward. If you're playing Wraith, then the origins of the Shadowlands and the Ferryman are a mystery. If you're playing Demon, then the Angels of the Seventh House created it and them.

      The issue is that I'm running a cross-over game so I can't really separate.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by magnus666 View Post


        The issue is that I'm running a cross-over game so I can't really separate.
        Well, then someone is going to get their metaphysical toes stepped on... unless you go with the wibbly wobbly timeline where everything is true, regardless of how much sense it makes.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by magnus666 View Post
          The issue is that I'm running a cross-over game so I can't really separate.
          Crossover isn't really supported, you will have to fill the gaps.

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          • #6
            You may have already reviewed it, but The Storyteller's Companion for Demon: The Fallen has info on rules, and more history is expanded upon in Houses of the Fallen

            I've been running a Demon: The Fallen campaign for the past 2 years, with sessions occurring every other week. Wraiths feature very heavily in the chronicle so I've had to do a lot of work to align things (I have all of my chronicles occur in the same continuity). I love cross-over games. If there are specific questions that you have, I can throw in my .02 if it's helpful

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Trategos_Sol View Post
              You may have already reviewed it, but The Storyteller's Companion for Demon: The Fallen has info on rules, and more history is expanded upon in Houses of the Fallen

              I've been running a Demon: The Fallen campaign for the past 2 years, with sessions occurring every other week. Wraiths feature very heavily in the chronicle so I've had to do a lot of work to align things (I have all of my chronicles occur in the same continuity). I love cross-over games. If there are specific questions that you have, I can throw in my .02 if it's helpful
              Mind if I inquire if that is an online game? Perhaps with room?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Trategos_Sol View Post
                You may have already reviewed it, but The Storyteller's Companion for Demon: The Fallen has info on rules, and more history is expanded upon in Houses of the Fallen

                I've been running a Demon: The Fallen campaign for the past 2 years, with sessions occurring every other week. Wraiths feature very heavily in the chronicle so I've had to do a lot of work to align things (I have all of my chronicles occur in the same continuity). I love cross-over games. If there are specific questions that you have, I can throw in my .02 if it's helpful

                Yeah for slayers, it poses an interesting premise,

                my questions are as follows :
                -Well addressing the elephant in the room, the big bad charon himself, what is he, a wraith who was named after the fallen charon or the serpah of the fallen night himself?

                -Same question for the lady of fate.

                -Does the slayer fortress still exist in the far shores maybe, Kâsdejâ even ?

                -Could a slayer take a stygian steel with him to the skinlands?

                -and finally the labyrinth and oblivion, is it possible to explore them for fallen or is the pull of the abyss so powerful there that it would rip the fallen from his host and if yes, to which extent and is oblivion related to the abyss.

                Thank you in advance .


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by magnus666 View Post


                  Yeah for slayers, it poses an interesting premise,

                  my questions are as follows :
                  -Well addressing the elephant in the room, the big bad charon himself, what is he, a wraith who was named after the fallen charon or the serpah of the fallen night himself?

                  -Same question for the lady of fate.
                  Ultimately, that is up to you as the ST. However, if you want a more definite response, it was confirmed that the Lady of Fate was meant to be Eve, the All Mother.
                  In my opinion, Charon was a "normal" Wraith who was given his name by Eve in remembrance of an angel she had known. The Angel Charon, on the other hand, alongside the other angels who escaped Heaven's punishment became the Neverborn.

                  Originally posted by magnus666 View Post
                  -Does the slayer fortress still exist in the far shores maybe, Kâsdejâ even ?
                  Again, up to you. Stygia could be the fortress. Or the Ferryman's fortress could be that same edifice. Or maybe even the Labyrinth itself.
                  Originally posted by magnus666 View Post
                  -Could a slayer take a stygian steel with him to the skinlands?
                  I'd say...maybe. I mean, stygian steel is basically souls and the stuff of Oblivion. We know that souls can materialize in the Skinlands so, maaaaaybe. With some application of Lore of the Spirit crossed with Lore of the Realms, perhaps.
                  Originally posted by magnus666 View Post
                  -and finally the labyrinth and oblivion, is it possible to explore them for fallen or is the pull of the abyss so powerful there that it would rip the fallen from his host and if yes, to which extent and is oblivion related to the abyss.
                  I think so. I mean, they have to cross the Labyrinth to reach the Shadowlands in the first place and they are, obviously, not immediately pulled back. So, while I would lead that to the conclusion of a chronicle and impart upon the players the danger they're in, I'd say it'd be doable.
                  Regarding Oblivion's relationship to the Abyss, I don't think there is one. They simply occupy spaces close to each other, metaphysically speaking. Oblivion stands at the center of the Labyrinth while the Abyss shares borders with it.
                  Strictly speaking, the Abyss is a space without matter where only thought can take place created by God whereas Oblivion is the end of everything, matter and thought. It is non existence which is actually the fate of all angels and demons who die since, unlike humans, they don't have souls.
                  Personally, I'd say that Oblivion is the Nothing that existed alongside God, who is Everything, before He created the angels to create the universe to separate Himself from Oblivion.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post

                    Mind if I inquire if that is an online game? Perhaps with room?
                    We play via roll20. I hate to say it but the game is pretty full and we are probably wrapping up the chronicle in the next few months. I'm sorry!

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                    • #11
                      -Well addressing the elephant in the room, the big bad charon himself, what is he, a wraith who was named after the fallen charon or the serpah of the fallen night himself?

                      In my opinion, Charon the Wraith Is not Charon the Fallen. In my continuity Charon the Fallen died in the war in a particularly nasty way. His identity is best left a mystery, with the Lady of Fate giving the moniker as title of respect and honor. He is a powerful Wraith who, as per Ends of Empire, is analogous the ferrymen (I.e., he has a pasiphae, Gorool).

                      -Same question for the lady of fate.

                      I feel she should not be an angel. I've always been fond of the notion that she is Eve, the third woman (after Lillith and the Crone, per Revelations of the Dark Mother).

                      -Does the slayer fortress still exist in the far shores maybe, Kâsdejâ even ?

                      Hey if Enoch exists, why not Kâsdejâ? It should be way, way way out there in the Tempest though. Almost impossible to find. Almost. Bet a Ferryman or a tricksy Spectre could do it.

                      -Could a slayer take a stygian steel with him to the Skinlands?

                      My vote is a hard no. The Shroud should retain its potency and prevent any dark umbral object from crossing over. Attempts to bring over should fail outright or result in the object immediately dissipating.

                      -and finally the labyrinth and oblivion, is it possible to explore them for fallen or is the pull of the abyss so powerful there that it would rip the fallen from his host and if yes, to which extent and is oblivion related to the abyss.

                      Actually, two of my players did this.

                      It was one of the best stories I think I ever ran. Per the Storyteller's companion, for each day you are in the Tempest, you have to roll Willpower to avoid your spirit getting ripped out of your host and into the Abyss. I say once you get into the labyrinth it should be 9, and if you get to the mouth of the void it should be 10. If you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes into you.

                      To me the abyss and oblivion are one and the same. Actually, in my continuity the Host made Lucifer design the abyss as a way of draining the demons energies to help keep the host powered after God died (I can go into why if that interests you). Think of the abyss/oblivion as a "wound" in creation, a cancer getting bigger and bigger. The Fallen trapped in there act like a twisted chemotherapy.
                      Last edited by Trategos_Sol; 08-18-2018, 09:20 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Trategos_Sol View Post

                        We play via roll20. I hate to say it but the game is pretty full and we are probably wrapping up the chronicle in the next few months. I'm sorry!
                        I understand. Pity tough, you can imagine how difficult it is to find a Demon ST.

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                        • #13
                          Thank you guys really for your kind answers, it was really helpful,
                          I'll post if I have more question,
                          until then, cheers!


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Trategos_Sol View Post
                            To me the abyss and oblivion are one and the same. Actually, in my continuity the Host made Lucifer design the abyss as a way of draining the demons energies to help keep the host powered after God died (I can go into why if that interests you). Think of the abyss/oblivion as a "wound" in creation, a cancer getting bigger and bigger. The Fallen trapped in there act like a twisted chemotherapy.
                            What a great idea!!! can you please elaborate?

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                            • #15
                              Wraith does not recognize Demon - it's part of the interesting White Wolf paradox (no pun intended) where gamelines only recognize the ones that came before them. So Vampire stands alone, Werewolf has rules for interacting with (mostly murdering) vampires, Mage has rules for interacting with the previous two, an so on. It's partially the fault of an original staggered release schedule, and partially due to each gameline being its own "facet" of the WoD, where their discrete truths are paramount.

                              At any rate, it is explicitly stated that Charon (Wraith) was named for the Charon in Demon, and so named by the Lady of Fate (who is the same in both, yet also somehow still the Biblical Eve). Also, the Abyss is a prison inside Oblivion, with all the metaphysical Escher-layering that implies.

                              Cheers!


                              If you don't use an Oxford comma, I feel bad for you, son,
                              'Cuz I got ninety-nine problems, but clarity ain't one.

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