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  • #16
    Originally posted by cipher View Post

    What a great idea!!! can you please elaborate?

    You got it. Suit up, though, this might be a bit of a doozy.

    The short version of it is this: which game line's mythology is right? After all, that's one of the biggest gripes against Demon's cosmology. Well the answer to me is, they're all correct. And yet incomplete...at least separately.

    Here is my "Answers to Mysteries" with respect to Demon:

    God – Shorty after creating the Universe, the Dark Ones, the Ones Before, came for it. God managed to defeat them, but was gravely wounded. Needing time to recuperate, God ordered the angels to stave their loving urges, to withhold their presence from the mortals; to do otherwise would put too much stress on the newly created cosmos and God itself, destroying everything. But God never anticipated that some among the Host would rebel, although perhaps it should have. Lucifer’s love of humanity was dwarfed only by God’s, and he led the rebellion. When Cain killed Abel, and then Lirael killed Jabniel, the force was too great, ripping God to shreds. Acting as any loving parent would do, God sacrificed itself in order to let its children live, if only for a limited time. The power of God infused the cosmos with vibrant, sustaining energy. The Triat was born; however, this energy would slowly dwindle (i.e., maximum entropy). God was dead before the war for creation was even over. The Umbra—all but the Dark Umbra which was created by the Slayers—is the “corpse” of God. All things within creation, being born of God, are therefore “of” God and tied to God’s fate. There is one exception, though, the Sebettu; the Host later punished them by inverting their True Names to be irrevocably untied to God’s will as a result of their defiance.

    The Angels – Ironically, only a few angels have ever met God: Lucifer, Michael and the divine council, and a third entity, known only as Ha Satan – the Adversary (more on this creature below). When God died, Michael proclaimed himself the rightful heir. However, all of the angels of the Host were inherently tied to the fate of God, and so none could take-up the mantle. This was conveyed to Michael and the council by Ha Satan, God’s closest adviser and the keeper of the divine and knowledge from before Creation. Instead, Michael settled for the self-proclaimed title of “Steward of Creation.” Forcing his will, he commanded the council to conceal God’s death from the other angels. The Fallen angels were oblivious of God’s death, as they had long been forsaken by Heaven and all of its business. The Abyss was Michael’s mandate, an impromptu decision made under the duress of a Universe without God. Michael feared that destroying the rebels would shatter the cosmos further, while he also recognized that the rebels could not be allowed to go unpunished. Michael, and many angels, blame the Fallen for God’s demise. Lucifer, as second only to God, was tasked by Michael to design Hell as part of his punishment. Lucifer begrudgingly agreed, if only to spare his comrades from destruction and with intents on rescuing them in the near future and reigniting the war. The Host suffered greatly from the war. God was killed, a third of their number rebelled, countless on both were destroyed and traumatized, and Michael shared with those still left the knowledge that the Ones Before still lurked in the Outer Darkness, at some point inevitably planning to return to finish God off at the first sign of weakness. Their greatest weapon, therefore, was maintaining Creation and its diminishing state as best they could for as long as they could, while also keeping watch for invasion and making any preparations that they might be capable of. The Triat of Werewolf and Mage can be seen as conceptual analogies for the flawed creation in the wake of God’s battle with the One’s Before and the Host’s attempts to make the best of the situation (e.g., Over-stretching the “stability” of creation in an effort to fight the inevitable “banality” and blight of God’s death). In the modern era the Host is quite divided in its tasks and ideologies. The Malahim, led by Uriel, prepare for invasion and make battle plans ready. The majority are elsewhere in the Universe, desperate to repair the damaged cosmos quicker than it decomposes and maintaining watch for the first signs that the Ones Before have returned for God. They are commanded by Raphael.

    Gabrielites – those angels who disobey Michael and instead focus on helping the mortals combat and guard against the dangers of the World of Darkness. The Imbued call them the Heralds. Michael tolerates their disobedience…for now.

    Gabriel – Gabriel, second in rank among the host, angel of mercy, revelation, and death. It is known that Gabriel and Lucifer were friends even throughout the war, both Elohim eager and hopeful that some kind of peace might be possible between the warring celestial armies. Gabriel was punished by Michael when he disobeyed a direct order to retreat at the battle of Shamayin, instead choosing to protect a mortal woman that he loved. Michael sentenced him to his own solitary imprisonment deep underneath the Earth, where he remains to this day. His location remains a secret, his form shackled among opulent statues of the Ophanim, the angels of justice. Gabriel’s punishment led to divisions amongst the Host and the direct formation of the Gabrielites.

    Lucifer – Lucifer himself was grievously scarred with the knowledge of God’s demise at the war’s end. In order to spare his brothers and sisters destruction, Lucifer was ordered to give secrets to Michael. One such secret was to be the Abyss. Functioning as a “battery” for the cosmos, the Abyss would slowly sap the angelic powers of the fallen and sustain the host so that they might remain as stewards of creations (after all, God was dead). Although this horrified Lucifer, he agreed to help construct the Abyss by the prospect of possibly freeing his brothers and sisters in the near future. Lucifer was spared the Abyss by Michael. This wasn’t mercy, but further punishment. Michael blamed Lucifer as chiefly responsible for God’s death. His punishment was to personally witness each member of his Legions thrown into hell, then he was cast aside in his own solitary prison elsewhere within the Dark Umbra. This was a very temporary punishment, as many among the Host yearned for clemency given Lucifer’s noble nature, the absence of God, and weariness of war and further atrocities. Furthermore, the Host yearned for God, and Lucifer was the closest existing and sentient remnant to it. Michael agreed to grant Lucifer some mercy to appease the host he sought to preside over, allowing him to sit as a junior member of his divine council. This was ultimately self-serving, however, as Michael’s hate for Lucifer had only grown since war’s end and he begrudgingly sought to exploit his knowledge further, most importantly in divining a solution for Creation’s slow heat death or worse still—the return of God’s enemies. However, Michael underestimated the loyalty and love that Lucifer still commanded among the Host. Lucifer slowly but surely gained more and more allies as he contributed meaningfully to the Host’s efforts to prepare for imminent invasion. Lucifer was able to gain enough trust and privilege to escape Heaven, albeit at the cost of much of his former power (he also had been weakened significantly by his own short imprisonment). Walking amongst the humans, Lucifer first attempted to reach his lieutenants in the Abyss, summoning the Earthbound. When this backfired, Lucifer almost abandoned all hope; however, he still maintained contact with some on the council, as there were several who questioned Michael’s leadership. Conspiring together, they created the Machine- an angelic invention intended to power creation with the faith of humanity to sustain the cosmos and the host until such time that the humans themselves could inherit it. However, the human flocks were scattered in their faith, and Michael soon learned of the conspiracy and acted to thwart it, seeing it as perverse and blasphemous. Deciding that the mortals represented the last best hope for God’s legacy to survive and the humans to ascend, Lucifer sacrificed himself in a powerful ritual that culminated in his crucifixion in order to galvanize the humans, around 38 C.E. His name now dwarfs all other celestial names inscribed on the weeping wall outside of the Godhead in Heaven. Caiel, watchful custodian of the wall and the memory of Creation’s fall, cannot bring himself to look upon the name. It, combined with knowledge of God’s death, is simply too much for him to bear. Even now, though, Lucifer’s Great Machine provides less and less faith as the masses despair and grow bleak in their outlook of the great existential plight before them.

    Ha Satan – Ha Satan is the accuser. Neither angel nor demon, it has long served as God’s most trusted advisor and adjutant. Ha Satan has watched over the Godhead (the highest, most holy place in Heaven, God’s abode) and serves as a sort of Sergeant at Arms. It does not interfere, merely enforces the natural order of the Godhead and provides information on the dead Creator to all who visit within the Godhead. It has long studied the only thing in the universe that is alien to it—God’s totem—and has recently learned secrets about the Ones Before and the possible fates of the universe. God’s totem is the solitary remnant of God’s power (outside of the Umbrae, that is), an eternal reminder of God’s slow erosion from the universe. It contains secrets for those who know how to look. Ha Satan is principally concerned with the preservation and guidance of God’s will and it considers anyone with similar intentions as its ally. Anyone.

    Humanity – There is no first in the schemes of eternity. God was and was before Creation. There were others, the Dark Ones, who battled God. The natural order is for new Gods to emerge, evil or good, when Ascension is apprehended by those worthy. The natural reproduction cycle, therefore, was for God to create the Universe, and then God’s children, the mortals. However, the Ones Before creation sought to kill God; God defeated them but was wounded, so much so that God attempted to slow the growth of Creation until such time that it could responsibly help shepherd Ascension. God’s greatest flaws, it seems, was its love and craftsmanship; for it was motivated to be a loving responsible parent and created its first angel with this spirit in mind as well. Lucifer, however, was too dedicated to humanity. And this, ironically, was its undoing. When humans die, they either transcend to a place not even angels can access (there is a hall in heaven where no angel may enter; it is presumed that this is a place for humans, so the rumor goes) or they descend to Oblivion. Some emerge in the Shadowlands until their fate is determined.

    Garou - These warriors of Creation are alien to the Fallen and Host, as they and the other Fera were the "last will and testament" of God dying. They could be viewed as God's last efforts to create creatures that might carry-on its will, but being created in God's death throws. They contain God's final hopes and dreams amidst great pain, suffering, and hopefulness. This can be seen in their composition: rage over creation's fate and its own pain, animalistic innocence reminiscent of the original intention of creation, human potential and growth, spiritual and celestial power. The Fera have unique connection to the Umbra (in contrast to the Fallen), as they are intimately tied to God through their creation by it and its death. The Triat is the purest understanding of "God," making the Garou's cosmology Truth.

    Changelings – These creatures were formed from the remnants of God’s creative will, God’s “dreams” on its passage to eternal darkness.

    The New God – If a human could ascend to the rank of Godhood, they would be free to create or destroy as they see fit, including their own universe. Still, even then they would be unable to inherit the current universe as it is, for the same reason that neither Michael nor any other angel could do so: they are all “of” God and therefore inevitably tied to its fate. The universe, as is, is doomed for destruction by all but the Fallen. The Fallen are celestial beings, independent from God prior to its death and, as such, they do not share its fate. In fact, the Fallen are the only creatures in Creation that are alien to God and its Creation by virtue of their punishment. To do so, one of the Fallen must enter Heaven and the Godhead, and then sit on the Throne of God. They must confront the totem of God and be found worthy of the mysteries of the Universe. If they are found unworthy, they are cast into the Outer Darkness. If they are found worthy, then they become…?

    The Outer Darkness – Much is a mystery. It lies far beyond the deepest reaches of the Deep Umbra. The Ones Before lurk here, strange, Cthulhu-type creatures that long have sought to destroy God. It is thought that the outside place accessible by Fiends is the quickest route to this frightening, seemingly empty place. Deep within, Qlippoths are thought to exist.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Trategos_Sol View Post


      You got it. Suit up, though, this might be a bit of a doozy.

      The short version of it is this: which game line's mythology is right? After all, that's one of the biggest gripes against Demon's cosmology. Well the answer to me is, they're all correct. And yet incomplete...at least separately.

      Here is my "Answers to Mysteries" with respect to Demon:

      God – Shorty after creating the Universe, the Dark Ones, the Ones Before, came for it. God managed to defeat them, but was gravely wounded. Needing time to recuperate, God ordered the angels to stave their loving urges, to withhold their presence from the mortals; to do otherwise would put too much stress on the newly created cosmos and God itself, destroying everything. But God never anticipated that some among the Host would rebel, although perhaps it should have. Lucifer’s love of humanity was dwarfed only by God’s, and he led the rebellion. When Cain killed Abel, and then Lirael killed Jabniel, the force was too great, ripping God to shreds. Acting as any loving parent would do, God sacrificed itself in order to let its children live, if only for a limited time. The power of God infused the cosmos with vibrant, sustaining energy. The Triat was born; however, this energy would slowly dwindle (i.e., maximum entropy). God was dead before the war for creation was even over. The Umbra—all but the Dark Umbra which was created by the Slayers—is the “corpse” of God. All things within creation, being born of God, are therefore “of” God and tied to God’s fate. There is one exception, though, the Sebettu; the Host later punished them by inverting their True Names to be irrevocably untied to God’s will as a result of their defiance.

      The Angels – Ironically, only a few angels have ever met God: Lucifer, Michael and the divine council, and a third entity, known only as Ha Satan – the Adversary (more on this creature below). When God died, Michael proclaimed himself the rightful heir. However, all of the angels of the Host were inherently tied to the fate of God, and so none could take-up the mantle. This was conveyed to Michael and the council by Ha Satan, God’s closest adviser and the keeper of the divine and knowledge from before Creation. Instead, Michael settled for the self-proclaimed title of “Steward of Creation.” Forcing his will, he commanded the council to conceal God’s death from the other angels. The Fallen angels were oblivious of God’s death, as they had long been forsaken by Heaven and all of its business. The Abyss was Michael’s mandate, an impromptu decision made under the duress of a Universe without God. Michael feared that destroying the rebels would shatter the cosmos further, while he also recognized that the rebels could not be allowed to go unpunished. Michael, and many angels, blame the Fallen for God’s demise. Lucifer, as second only to God, was tasked by Michael to design Hell as part of his punishment. Lucifer begrudgingly agreed, if only to spare his comrades from destruction and with intents on rescuing them in the near future and reigniting the war. The Host suffered greatly from the war. God was killed, a third of their number rebelled, countless on both were destroyed and traumatized, and Michael shared with those still left the knowledge that the Ones Before still lurked in the Outer Darkness, at some point inevitably planning to return to finish God off at the first sign of weakness. Their greatest weapon, therefore, was maintaining Creation and its diminishing state as best they could for as long as they could, while also keeping watch for invasion and making any preparations that they might be capable of. The Triat of Werewolf and Mage can be seen as conceptual analogies for the flawed creation in the wake of God’s battle with the One’s Before and the Host’s attempts to make the best of the situation (e.g., Over-stretching the “stability” of creation in an effort to fight the inevitable “banality” and blight of God’s death). In the modern era the Host is quite divided in its tasks and ideologies. The Malahim, led by Uriel, prepare for invasion and make battle plans ready. The majority are elsewhere in the Universe, desperate to repair the damaged cosmos quicker than it decomposes and maintaining watch for the first signs that the Ones Before have returned for God. They are commanded by Raphael.

      Gabrielites – those angels who disobey Michael and instead focus on helping the mortals combat and guard against the dangers of the World of Darkness. The Imbued call them the Heralds. Michael tolerates their disobedience…for now.

      Gabriel – Gabriel, second in rank among the host, angel of mercy, revelation, and death. It is known that Gabriel and Lucifer were friends even throughout the war, both Elohim eager and hopeful that some kind of peace might be possible between the warring celestial armies. Gabriel was punished by Michael when he disobeyed a direct order to retreat at the battle of Shamayin, instead choosing to protect a mortal woman that he loved. Michael sentenced him to his own solitary imprisonment deep underneath the Earth, where he remains to this day. His location remains a secret, his form shackled among opulent statues of the Ophanim, the angels of justice. Gabriel’s punishment led to divisions amongst the Host and the direct formation of the Gabrielites.

      Lucifer – Lucifer himself was grievously scarred with the knowledge of God’s demise at the war’s end. In order to spare his brothers and sisters destruction, Lucifer was ordered to give secrets to Michael. One such secret was to be the Abyss. Functioning as a “battery” for the cosmos, the Abyss would slowly sap the angelic powers of the fallen and sustain the host so that they might remain as stewards of creations (after all, God was dead). Although this horrified Lucifer, he agreed to help construct the Abyss by the prospect of possibly freeing his brothers and sisters in the near future. Lucifer was spared the Abyss by Michael. This wasn’t mercy, but further punishment. Michael blamed Lucifer as chiefly responsible for God’s death. His punishment was to personally witness each member of his Legions thrown into hell, then he was cast aside in his own solitary prison elsewhere within the Dark Umbra. This was a very temporary punishment, as many among the Host yearned for clemency given Lucifer’s noble nature, the absence of God, and weariness of war and further atrocities. Furthermore, the Host yearned for God, and Lucifer was the closest existing and sentient remnant to it. Michael agreed to grant Lucifer some mercy to appease the host he sought to preside over, allowing him to sit as a junior member of his divine council. This was ultimately self-serving, however, as Michael’s hate for Lucifer had only grown since war’s end and he begrudgingly sought to exploit his knowledge further, most importantly in divining a solution for Creation’s slow heat death or worse still—the return of God’s enemies. However, Michael underestimated the loyalty and love that Lucifer still commanded among the Host. Lucifer slowly but surely gained more and more allies as he contributed meaningfully to the Host’s efforts to prepare for imminent invasion. Lucifer was able to gain enough trust and privilege to escape Heaven, albeit at the cost of much of his former power (he also had been weakened significantly by his own short imprisonment). Walking amongst the humans, Lucifer first attempted to reach his lieutenants in the Abyss, summoning the Earthbound. When this backfired, Lucifer almost abandoned all hope; however, he still maintained contact with some on the council, as there were several who questioned Michael’s leadership. Conspiring together, they created the Machine- an angelic invention intended to power creation with the faith of humanity to sustain the cosmos and the host until such time that the humans themselves could inherit it. However, the human flocks were scattered in their faith, and Michael soon learned of the conspiracy and acted to thwart it, seeing it as perverse and blasphemous. Deciding that the mortals represented the last best hope for God’s legacy to survive and the humans to ascend, Lucifer sacrificed himself in a powerful ritual that culminated in his crucifixion in order to galvanize the humans, around 38 C.E. His name now dwarfs all other celestial names inscribed on the weeping wall outside of the Godhead in Heaven. Caiel, watchful custodian of the wall and the memory of Creation’s fall, cannot bring himself to look upon the name. It, combined with knowledge of God’s death, is simply too much for him to bear. Even now, though, Lucifer’s Great Machine provides less and less faith as the masses despair and grow bleak in their outlook of the great existential plight before them.

      Ha Satan – Ha Satan is the accuser. Neither angel nor demon, it has long served as God’s most trusted advisor and adjutant. Ha Satan has watched over the Godhead (the highest, most holy place in Heaven, God’s abode) and serves as a sort of Sergeant at Arms. It does not interfere, merely enforces the natural order of the Godhead and provides information on the dead Creator to all who visit within the Godhead. It has long studied the only thing in the universe that is alien to it—God’s totem—and has recently learned secrets about the Ones Before and the possible fates of the universe. God’s totem is the solitary remnant of God’s power (outside of the Umbrae, that is), an eternal reminder of God’s slow erosion from the universe. It contains secrets for those who know how to look. Ha Satan is principally concerned with the preservation and guidance of God’s will and it considers anyone with similar intentions as its ally. Anyone.

      Humanity – There is no first in the schemes of eternity. God was and was before Creation. There were others, the Dark Ones, who battled God. The natural order is for new Gods to emerge, evil or good, when Ascension is apprehended by those worthy. The natural reproduction cycle, therefore, was for God to create the Universe, and then God’s children, the mortals. However, the Ones Before creation sought to kill God; God defeated them but was wounded, so much so that God attempted to slow the growth of Creation until such time that it could responsibly help shepherd Ascension. God’s greatest flaws, it seems, was its love and craftsmanship; for it was motivated to be a loving responsible parent and created its first angel with this spirit in mind as well. Lucifer, however, was too dedicated to humanity. And this, ironically, was its undoing. When humans die, they either transcend to a place not even angels can access (there is a hall in heaven where no angel may enter; it is presumed that this is a place for humans, so the rumor goes) or they descend to Oblivion. Some emerge in the Shadowlands until their fate is determined.

      Garou - These warriors of Creation are alien to the Fallen and Host, as they and the other Fera were the "last will and testament" of God dying. They could be viewed as God's last efforts to create creatures that might carry-on its will, but being created in God's death throws. They contain God's final hopes and dreams amidst great pain, suffering, and hopefulness. This can be seen in their composition: rage over creation's fate and its own pain, animalistic innocence reminiscent of the original intention of creation, human potential and growth, spiritual and celestial power. The Fera have unique connection to the Umbra (in contrast to the Fallen), as they are intimately tied to God through their creation by it and its death. The Triat is the purest understanding of "God," making the Garou's cosmology Truth.

      Changelings – These creatures were formed from the remnants of God’s creative will, God’s “dreams” on its passage to eternal darkness.

      The New God – If a human could ascend to the rank of Godhood, they would be free to create or destroy as they see fit, including their own universe. Still, even then they would be unable to inherit the current universe as it is, for the same reason that neither Michael nor any other angel could do so: they are all “of” God and therefore inevitably tied to its fate. The universe, as is, is doomed for destruction by all but the Fallen. The Fallen are celestial beings, independent from God prior to its death and, as such, they do not share its fate. In fact, the Fallen are the only creatures in Creation that are alien to God and its Creation by virtue of their punishment. To do so, one of the Fallen must enter Heaven and the Godhead, and then sit on the Throne of God. They must confront the totem of God and be found worthy of the mysteries of the Universe. If they are found unworthy, they are cast into the Outer Darkness. If they are found worthy, then they become…?

      The Outer Darkness – Much is a mystery. It lies far beyond the deepest reaches of the Deep Umbra. The Ones Before lurk here, strange, Cthulhu-type creatures that long have sought to destroy God. It is thought that the outside place accessible by Fiends is the quickest route to this frightening, seemingly empty place. Deep within, Qlippoths are thought to exist.

      Charon forbid, this is wonderful.


      Comment


      • #18
        Repost, delete pleaase.
        Last edited by magnus666; 08-22-2018, 11:28 AM.


        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by nothing View Post
          At any rate, it is explicitly stated that Charon (Wraith) was named for the Charon in Demon, and so named by the Lady of Fate (who is the same in both, yet also somehow still the Biblical Eve). Also, the Abyss is a prison inside Oblivion, with all the metaphysical Escher-layering that implies.
          My favorite theory is that Charon (the Fallen, not the Ferryman) is an Earthbound who bound himself not to something physical, but rather the entropy underneath the Shadowlands. So the word Earthbound is not accurate: a more correct name would be Oblivionbound.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Beriorn View Post
            My favorite theory is that Charon (the Fallen, not the Ferryman) is an Earthbound who bound himself not to something physical, but rather the entropy underneath the Shadowlands. So the word Earthbound is not accurate: a more correct name would be Oblivionbound.
            Oblivionbound catchy yet I think he's a neverborn


            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by magnus666 View Post
              Oblivionbound catchy yet I think he's a neverborn
              That would also make sense: Charon and those others who fled into Oblivion are actually the original Malfeans. But that raises the question of what Nhudri is: if he's actually Nudriel, how is he still alive and relatively sane? Or maybe he's not? It would also imply that Soulforging is a strange mix of the Lore of the Forge and the Lore of the Spirit.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Beriorn View Post
                That would also make sense: Charon and those others who fled into Oblivion are actually the original Malfeans. But that raises the question of what Nhudri is: if he's actually Nudriel, how is he still alive and relatively sane? Or maybe he's not? It would also imply that Soulforging is a strange mix of the Lore of the Forge and the Lore of the Spirit.

                Holy shit I love you dude! why didn't I ever think of that, he could be a former thrall of his that he has taken to the underworld, taught him lore of the forge and spirit and he mutated it into soulforging


                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by magnus666 View Post
                  Holy shit I love you dude! why didn't I ever think of that, he could be a former thrall of his that he has taken to the underworld, taught him lore of the forge and spirit and he mutated it into soulforging.
                  Nhudriel was a Malefactor (House of the Fallen, p.180-181) and the right hand man of Charon (the Fallen). He helped create the first Ferryman lanterns (combination of Lore of Paths and Lore of the Realms) and he also forged Silkos, the scythe of Charon (again, the Fallen). This would also mean that if Nhudriel is in fact Nhudri the Siklos that he made for Charon (not the Fallen) is a reference to the original. And no, the two weapons are not the one and the same: Charon's Siklos is made of tithe-money and Spectres, while Charon's Siklos is made of the spirits of three warriors who wanted to continue to fight even in death and the memories of a large number of weapons destroyed over the course of centuries in the Age of Wrath. So they're likely not the same thing unless Nhudri(el) lied through his teeth and just gave Charon Siklos instead of a new weapon.

                  In case you're wondering, the Fallen Siklos can only be wielded in the Underworld. When the user expends a point of Faith used to charge the weapon it deals Strength+5 Aggravated damage, all hit and wound rolls are at -2 Difficulty, the attack ignores all armor and the damage can't be soaked. Fun times.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Beriorn View Post
                    Nhudriel was a Malefactor (House of the Fallen, p.180-181) and the right hand man of Charon (the Fallen). He helped create the first Ferryman lanterns (combination of Lore of Paths and Lore of the Realms) and he also forged Silkos, the scythe of Charon (again, the Fallen). This would also mean that if Nhudriel is in fact Nhudri the Siklos that he made for Charon (not the Fallen) is a reference to the original. And no, the two weapons are not the one and the same: Charon's Siklos is made of tithe-money and Spectres, while Charon's Siklos is made of the spirits of three warriors who wanted to continue to fight even in death and the memories of a large number of weapons destroyed over the course of centuries in the Age of Wrath. So they're likely not the same thing unless Nhudri(el) lied through his teeth and just gave Charon Siklos instead of a new weapon.

                    In case you're wondering, the Fallen Siklos can only be wielded in the Underworld. When the user expends a point of Faith used to charge the weapon it deals Strength+5 Aggravated damage, all hit and wound rolls are at -2 Difficulty, the attack ignores all armor and the damage can't be soaked. Fun times.
                    True yet here where things get kinky, Nhudriel is still an active in Stygia today as the great smith so he's probably a wraith and as you state Silkos that's wielded by the wraith Charon which I will further refer to as fake charon.
                    Both items could be the same item yet the description aside, it’s too much of a coincidence to have the same name and ironically fake charon dagged nhudriel from the labyrinth after a “long battle”.


                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by magnus666 View Post
                      Nhudriel is still an active in Stygia today as the great smith so he's probably a wraith
                      Fallen can't become Wraiths.

                      And the option is there: Charon was forced to leave Siklos behind in the final hours of the Age of Wrath, so it's quite possible that Nhudri(el) picked it up when Charon dragged him out of the Labyrinth.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Wto Charon is way more powerful than any wraith, unless you say that the lady of fate gave him such power, I would think he has some connection to the fallen Charon, even if he was changed into a wraith.

                        Nuhdri being a fallen makes sense and even the lady of fate being Eve gives a reason for there power but Charon was supposed to be a normal wraith.

                        Soul forging was a poisoned gift,
                        Just my two cents

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          It's possible that Charon is so powerful because he's human. (Or was.)

                          In Demon cosmology, humanity is special. They have that divine spark that comes from God, while the Elohim are basically just cogs in the mechanism. And it's human faith that powers Demons and allows them to act.

                          And it's the wraiths who can eventually transcend the Underworld, in the end, and go where Demons can't follow.

                          It's possible that when the Demons created the Underworld as their metaphorical trapeze net to catch souls before they (to their eyes) disappeared entirely, it created some sort of symbiotic relationship, which would be an interest contrast to the Malfeans/Neverborn (which I definitely agree, in this context, would be Fallen themselves. "Oblivionbound" is such a great concept.)

                          Nhudri is a really interesting question. I think you could do a lot with him. Is he a Fallen? Or was he maybe a Nephilim of some kind? Or a particularly empowered human who was mistaken for a Fallen? Is Soul-Forging a gift or another attempt to keep Wraiths distracted and away from transcending?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by kalinara View Post
                            It's possible that Charon is so powerful because he's human. (Or was.)

                            In Demon cosmology, humanity is special. They have that divine spark that comes from God, while the Elohim are basically just cogs in the mechanism. And it's human faith that powers Demons and allows them to act.

                            And it's the wraiths who can eventually transcend the Underworld, in the end, and go where Demons can't follow.

                            It's possible that when the Demons created the Underworld as their metaphorical trapeze net to catch souls before they (to their eyes) disappeared entirely, it created some sort of symbiotic relationship, which would be an interest contrast to the Malfeans/Neverborn (which I definitely agree, in this context, would be Fallen themselves. "Oblivionbound" is such a great concept.)...
                            I find it kinda weird though that the WTO setting seems purpose-built for letting the dead move on from the tragedies of their life, but the thing that corrupts that purpose always points back to the neverborn/oblivion. Harrowings force a wraith to deal with their failings in life and would actually push them towards acceptance if oblivion didn't punish wraiths for failing them, shadows/spectres would just be a mechanism for wraiths to face their own unfiltered thoughts rather than self-destruction-obsessed body-snatchers if they weren't corrupted by the neverborn/oblivion, and without oblivion destroying wraiths, they'd cycle between wraith-hood/spectrehood until they could emotionally mature enough to transcend.

                            I don't really think Oblivion fits the fallen's MO of wanting to keep the souls of the dead in their own custom-build afterlife and out of the creator's hands. It also makes the neverborn's worship of Oblivion itself strange, as it doesn't have much of anything to do with the fallen and keeps eating their secret closet where they keep their precious collection of human souls.

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                            • #29
                              The Halaku who built the Underworld could have just screwed up at it. The Fallen made a lot of bad hasty decisions that only made things worse in those days.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Reasor View Post
                                The Halaku who built the Underworld could have just screwed up at it. The Fallen made a lot of bad hasty decisions that only made things worse in those days.
                                Maybe, but that still doesn't explain Oblivion. Everything about Oblivion is antithetical to what the fallen want and the fact that the Neverborn universally worship it makes me think they aren't related to the fallen. I'm more in the camp with Lucifer's theory of Oblivion, that Oblivion is an "Other" apart from "The Creator" and that the Neverborn are it's equivalent to angels.

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