Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Fallen & Wraith

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    I think you could maybe do a few interesting things with Oblivion.

    One option might be to utilize Oblivion as the Void from which all things were created to begin with. Oblivion then would be older than God and scarier, but largely separate from creation, until the Halaku, in their arrogance, decided to try to keep human souls from transcending, somehow managed to pierce its isolation and let it start seeping through.

    Another option is that Oblivion is a corrupted fallen. Or maybe God herself. IIRC, the creation story indicated that when God touched creation directly, without the Elohim as go-betweens, it caused a lot of damage. Perhaps it happened in reverse too. You could make some meta-comparison to the corruption of the Triad in Werewolf (if you want to go to the layered reality interpretation). God, now corrupted, is seeking to undo creation and return everything to herself. In this scenario, you might even be able to equate the Neverborn to Angels. (Since the Elohim were not, themselves, strictly "born")

    Of course, there are a bunch of other options too. But these are ones that popped into my mind as possibly making for an interesting story.

    Comment


    • #32
      Personally, I like having different splats actually be different things. Having the Neverborn secretly be fallen would cheapen Wraith's setting and makes it feel like Wraith was second banana to Demon all along.

      I don't mind having the fallen make the first iteration of the underworld that grew into the Wraith setting if Oblivion and the powers it seems to grant wraiths is something new that they don't understand. Having the fallen not be the end-all-be-all of WoD's origins and metaphysics adds mystery to the setting and makes the World of Darkness more interesting.

      Comment


      • #33
        One problem I have with the Malfeans as being alien things generated spontaneously out of the void is that most of them that have been detailed in print seem to have comprehensible natures and forms related to the human world. Even Zyras the All-Consuming, supposedly one of the most powerful of the Neverborn, appears as a six-winged obsidian angel of close to human scale and exemplifies Wrath. That sounds more like a fallen angel that's been twisted by exposure to nothingness than something that originated out of it with no connection to creation and its inhabitants.

        Comment


        • #34
          TBH WoD has a history of revising itself even within specific game systems to a degree that contradiction in some way, shape, or form is inevitable even without crossovers. And whether its retcons within the setting or in crossovers whether it is a problem or not depends on whether the reader is able to rationalize it themselves. If they do, its not a problem. If they can't... its a problem. So its a 'YMMV' situation. Some people will be more forgiving of certain changes than others, or just be bugged less (or more) overall by the idea of changes period (see VTM and its respective editions from 1st/2nd to revised, to V20 to 5th if you want a full spectrum of responses.)

          In the case of Demon I think alot of the superficial narrative (which is explicitly Judeo Christian) obscures a lot of the underlying concepts that drove Demon (all that 'different levels of reality occuring simultaneously' stuff). It's not that they didn't conceive of ways to explain the potential inconsistencies (Resonance/Fractured Cosmos basically, like with Mage) they just didn't go into any great depth with it so the surface narrative tends to dominate reader preconceptions. Kindred of the East is in the same boat - even though alot of the underlying stuff can be more generic (and ties in more with Exaltd) the 'surface' narrative and framing pushes a very particular slant that makes it feel less generic. In Demon's case it's a drawback of the Obi-Wan Kenobi 'Certain point of view' logic it employs - it only works as long as you have a workable 'alternate' perspective to slot into the place for the one given. If a reader doesn't... they're going to feel adrift and frustrated because it won't make a coherent picture (or at least as coherent as the ST system's canon-agnostic approach ever got, nevermind the differing artistic viewpoints each author brought to respective settings.)

          Comment


          • #35
            Speaking of the Neverborn only some of the oldest are truly that, many of the malfeans are what is called onceborn, because they were human then wraith then spectre and they clawed up the castes,
            The original Neverborn crawled out of the death of life eternal, the sundering scared creation, oblivion is not of creation but an older other that latched onto creation and grew and grew as it ate the divine

            Comment


            • #36
              So the more I read of demons Charon, it seems like they are the same, in the demon wiki it states that dtf Charon built Stygia, but in wto Charon built it,
              In wto great war, Charon is a playable character, who has basically any power needed and beyond,
              Aside from that few beings are noted to have existed for eons, or the oldest histories, although they speak of old wraiths, most are by a few hundred years, so thin as to be ghost to ghosts, meaning oblivion ate bits and parts of them til only a thread remainder.

              But not Charon, or lady fate, or even Nhudri

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by DeadMan View Post
                So the more I read of demons Charon, it seems like they are the same, in the demon wiki it states that dtf Charon built Stygia, but in wto Charon built it,
                In wto great war, Charon is a playable character, who has basically any power needed and beyond,
                Aside from that few beings are noted to have existed for eons, or the oldest histories, although they speak of old wraiths, most are by a few hundred years, so thin as to be ghost to ghosts, meaning oblivion ate bits and parts of them til only a thread remainder.

                But not Charon, or lady fate, or even Nhudri
                It’s more the Slayer Charon directed the construction of the Underworld, which they called Haven. Charon Dwelt on/built what would eventually become the Isle of Stygia, the island/Dark Kingdom of Stygia was not built till wraith Charon arrived, and Wraith Charon very much was a mortal not a fallen angel, as he was noted as being from a Mycenaean culture.


                It is a time for great deeds!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by DeadMan View Post
                  Speaking of the Neverborn only some of the oldest are truly that, many of the malfeans are what is called onceborn, because they were human then wraith then spectre and they clawed up the castes,
                  The original Neverborn crawled out of the death of life eternal, the sundering scared creation, oblivion is not of creation but an older other that latched onto creation and grew and grew as it ate the divine
                  You are thinking of the term Malfean, and Malfeans have two types, Onceborn which were once mortals and Neverborn beings that never knew life as mortals know.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

                  Comment

                  Working...
                  X