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Should the use of "NuWW" go?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by moogle001 View Post
    I very easily could be. Kinda reinforces my point, doesn't it? It's very hard to keep these corporate distinctions apart.
    And calling any terminology to separate them "divisive" makes this worse, not better. Having shorthand for which version of WW we're talking about is actually useful because the last 15 years have been pretty confusing and calling it all WW makes it worse.

    So I personally think most fans will be confused by the term "nuWW".
    Sure. But then they ask, and people can explain that WW was bought by a different company to explain why whatever they're talking about justifies differentiating. You might have noticed that I don't always use nWW or whatever. I don't like 'nuWW' because the u annoys me on a purely personal aesthetic level (developed from the use of nu-metal as a heavy metal subgenre).

    Well that's literally the opposite of what I intend, but please forgive me as this thread is about terminology rather than issues.
    And... being divisive among the fanbase is generally the opposite of the intentions of people that chose to differentiate between old and new WW when they do so. Reading "nuWW" as an attack is, IME, not paying any attention to the intentions of the people talking.

    Yes, this is a thread about terminology, I was illustrating how this is used as I've seen it: to accuse others of being divisive to disguise truly divisive actions (intent being whatever it is).

    But my point is, Internet communities make up special terminology and it mostly serves to exclude those who are not part of that community's current consensus.
    Subcultural slang and lingo is a few thousand years older than the Internet. Human do it pretty much automatically. It is not rooted in the intention to exclude others, but to reference internal shared experiences. This can be intimidating to outsides and create feelings of exclusion, but rarely is it done for that purpose. The few times it's used for exclusionary purposes, it's generally by minorities seeking to protect themselves from majority cultures hostile to them.

    Originally posted by Redwulfe View Post
    Marginalized - treat (a person, group, or concept) as insignificant or peripheral.
    And... who's treating nWW or its fans as insignificant or peripheral? Nobody's complaining loudly about them because they think the company doesn't matter to them.

    By making a term that is
    dismissive you marginalize groups of individuals that you lump in with that term or that are lumped in with the group you have used the term to describe.
    1) You're proclaiming the term as dismissive without actual back up of this. "I prefer oWW to nWW" is dismissive in what way? The fact that there are people dismissive of nWW that also use the shorthand doesn't prove the shorthand itself is dismissive.

    2) "I think Mitch McConnell is a ineffective sham of a Republican that can only get his way by cheating the system and selling out Republic ideals." is pretty dismissive of him, but how have I marginalized him? How have I even marginalized Republicans?

    This is about what some people here, you being the example, continue to do without correction.
    So, what you're saying is calling for people to stop using terms like nWW or nuWW is explicitly to police the language of the boards to correct the indisputable fact that disliking V5 openly is wrong, and such people need to feel dismissed for their insignificant grognard howling so that they either come around by social pressure or flee the community.

    Because that's what you're saying even if it's not what you mean.

    So since clarity was not what was needed I can only conclude that its use is one of spitefulness and
    If this is your only conclusion, than my previous point is that much less hyperbole and that much more an affirmation that my reading was accurate to your intent.

    ...and to have a discussion on whether or not a correction should be made to the way we speak to each other.
    Except it seems abundantly clear that you were never open to the "correction" being "people that don't like nWW or similar terms realizing that it's not the problem and to stop calling people out for using it because that's far more divisive and disrespectful than using the term ever could be."

    As it has been pointed out WW is no more so it is somewhat a moot point, but unfortunately many still persist in using terminology that is now incorrect.
    Well, WW isn't actually no more, it's no more as an independent entity. We don't know if Paradox will continue using the imprint or not. And again, "terminology that is not incorrect" is a sign that this was never really up for discussion. "nWW" was always going to be wrong and need correction to you.

    So once again I can only conclude that its use is an attempt to marginalize or just be spiteful especially by continuing to use it.
    Which is, again, a conclusion that can only stem from bad faith.

    It is not being used in many instances for clarification.
    You realize it is, in most instances, being used for clarity so clarification later isn't necessary, right?
    Last edited by Heavy Arms; 11-17-2018, 05:21 PM.


    • #17
      Heavy Arms my intentions are not to police but to ask if it is really necessary to use. That's why I asked "should we" instead of stating that "it should go" I feel I have stated that clearly, but since you seemto think I am trying to police I can only conclude that I did not do a good job at that. As I have said I am checking myself but my conclusions color the way I feel, so I wanted clarity. But people seem to keep questioning the way I felt, so maybe I am just wrong in feeling that way.

      I am not going to go throughout the forums to point to the instances where it made me feelthat it was used in a negative form. You can do that yourself. I am taking the stance of what I felt and I don't need to prove my feelings for them to be valid. It is a fact that I felt that way and I asked to explain how the heck it made me feel that way and I was attempting to oblige.

      I do feel that such terminology has been used on occasion in a negative connotation. I don't think you use it as such and truly are just trying to be clear in your posts even if I feel it is unnecessary you do not and that is fine with me. But even you have been accessed of using it in a divisive manner which leads me to think that I am not the only one who feels the way I do about the use of the term. So I asked should we avoid using it? If you feel so, don't use it. If you don't feel so then you will continue to use it. If an individual is wanting to create a negative connotation then you have made me feel the negative stance you have taken, so well done. and those individuals will continue to use it but I can not police or control it, even if I wanted to which I don't.

      I would like people who may be using it in a negative manor to think about it before deciding to use it in the future, as some do feel like it is divisive or marginalizing and they don't need to prove their feelings either.

      on another note, I could really care less if people like V5 or not, so long as you are happy playing any edition of Vampire and that makes you happy and if not I am sorry you feel that way VtM is a good setting I hope you give it a try sometime. V5 is the edition I enjoy the most even though I have felt attack for licking it and I feel it is the best edition yet, but that is just my opinion and it is valid for me which is enough for me. What I do care about is when people spread lies about, oversimplify, or parrot other peoples statements with no real knowledge about the system when they are not true. If you have read the book and do not like it then that is your feelings on the matter and that is fine, but I feel you should state it as such so you don't confuse people on what is fact or you opinion.

      The conversation I had with Levi and the stances I took on WW printing the Chechen section has gotten me thinking on wether or not one should stand up when they feel marginalized even if it is about a work of fiction, and I am not equating these two incidents. I took the stance that "Vampires aren't real" but the ramifications that have been had over the work of fiction has made me rethink the matter all together. So I decided to voice my feelings on a separate issue I was having. I will not make that mistake again and with that I bow out of this altogether.
      Last edited by Redwulfe; 11-17-2018, 08:01 PM.


      • #18
        I don't think you realise what being 'marginalised' is. It's not about hurt feelings. It's about power.


        People who are marginalised are disenfranchised, disempowered and discriminated against. Pointing to a brief, reductive definition in a dictionary doesn't get across the full depth of the concept and the context in which it exists.

        That said, the term nuWW in itself is no more loaded than other options. In fact, it's possibly less loaded than ParaWolf. The latter always reminds me of 'paramilitary'.


        • #19
          I don't see any reason to stop using 'NuWW.' The company is a distinct entity, different from the WW of old and OPP. That a lot of people use it disparagingly is just down to some people not liking the company. Asking us to not use it would be like not using 'TSR' because some people hated the company and called it T$R.

          It's also, quite frankly, a ridiculously unrealistic request. Only a tiny number of people are going to see this thread. Even if we were inclined to stop using the term, it wouldn't make a difference.


          • #20
            I’ve never cared for it. The fact is that there have been several White Wolfs over the years, as the same people were not consistently in charge, and the overall direction of products has changed a number of times with different people at the helm. It’s just that whereas before White Wolf was more of a Theseus’s Ship situation, under CCP it was dissolved as a company, so the recent White Wolf didn’t have thstnsame continuity. Now it’s also being dissolved, so... whatever.

            On the one hand, yeah, it was a different company with the same name, but White Wolf has been quite a number of companies over the years really, just with more obvious continuity between incarnations. And to be honest, “NuWW” seems to always be used in a negative tone, though I guess at this point it doesn’t much matter.

            The situation from this point on is going to be a lot more like the CCP situation, only with less neglect, or so I expect.


            • #21
              We could always try "Chronicles of White Wolf."

              But seriously - NuWW as short for "The new White Wolf" to distinguish Paradox's rpg imprint from old White Wolf (CCP's rpg imprint) does not seem disparaging to me. When the difference doesn't matter, they're just White Wolf.

              Dave Brookshaw


              • #22
                Redwulfe Without getting into the semantic weeds about whether you reasonably should feel/are marginalized by whatever distinction, I'm just going to point out that the emergence of the terminological distinctions is itself evidence of the community's desire to differentiate between certain items for rhetorical purposes--just like how people discuss different editions of the game, or comparisons between V:tM and V:tR, people in this fan community are going to talk about how the old and new stack up and compare with one another. Some of these conversations will make normative statements about quality and merit, some will simply discuss technical differences across the spectrum, and some will do both. Regardless, the conversations are going to happen.

                If some particular terminology is upsetting to you, and you'd like it not used, I suggest you first provide an alternative (because, again, these conversations are going to happen--it cannot be stopped); and, second, try to find a way to provide the community with a reasonable explanation as to why the particular term being used upsets you, beyond simply the fact that you don't like that people are going acknowledge that a difference exists between different production eras of the game.



                • #23
                  Shouldn't we be moving onto ModWW now?


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Lian View Post
                    Shouldn't we be moving onto ModWW now?

                    It's basically just Modiphius now. White Wolf is a branding used by Paradox for the IP and not much more. Modiphius and partners ( OPP and others) are in charge of game direction and production now.


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Damian May View Post

                      It's basically just Modiphius now. White Wolf is a branding used by Paradox for the IP and not much more. Modiphius and partners ( OPP and others) are in charge of game direction and production now.

                      Right now that MOd is in charge shouldn't it be Mod WW?


                      • #26
                        That doesn't make any sense. It would be like saying we should be calling things OnyxWW. Modiphius isn't in charge of White Wolf. Modiphius is in charge of whatever IPs Paradox hires them to handle.


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                          That doesn't make any sense. It would be like saying we should be calling things OnyxWW. Modiphius isn't in charge of White Wolf. Modiphius is in charge of whatever IPs Paradox hires them to handle.

                          We call things Onyxpath I mean we could easily point out the "Onyx Path" period of White wolf games. Where they were the only ones doing it.

                          Modiphius isn't in charge of WW now.. but Paradox has functionally given up all its power as NuWW to Modiphius, going forward Modiphius will be running everything.


                          • #28
                            Modiphius is in the same position as Onyx Path was under CCP. We can call it the Modiphius era if we want, but it's not ModWW because Modiphius isn't calling itself WW.


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                              Modiphius is in the same position as Onyx Path was under CCP. We can call it the Modiphius era if we want, but it's not ModWW because Modiphius isn't calling itself WW.

                              I am not sure that it is? It looks like Modiphius has complete Reign unlike OP which had to send in all its books for approval?


                              • #30
                                However hands on/handsoff Paradox wants to handle oversight of Modiphius isn't really relevant is it?

                                The point of calling it nWW or nuWW or whatever, was to clarify between different entities that used the same name. Modiphius, Paradox Interactive, and Onyx Path aren't also names of other companies we need to be clear which ones were talking about. WWGS and WWAB were two different corporate entities both using the name White Wolf. What's unclear here?