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  • #31
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    And yet... you're demonstrating no use of awareness of how metaphors work, and the rest of this is a non-sequitur.

    You opinions on the authors' motivations aren't showing that you get how metaphors work and what the implications of those metaphor are.
    How so? I thought metaphors are exactly based what the author is trying to use literary tools like Vampires for example which is how they work.

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    • #32
      I think that it’s unfair to call the White Wolf authors “edge lords” what ever that means. I suppose it means someone like does things just to shock and offend people, a kind of troll. I don’t think that is an accurate description of the thinking process that went into creating V:tM. People can explore dark and even disturbing topics and themes in a mature way in hobbies and entertainment and that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

      Vampire have often had a strong sexual component to them, at least as far back as the 1800’s and especially in 20th and 21st century vampire fiction. Clearly, in V:tM as well as other stories, there is a strong rape-like element to vampires. Even when the vampires are asexual, the act of drinking blood, the violation, the pleasure experienced by the drinker and the victim, the power the vampire has through the Kiss - it is all quite like rape. In rape, sex aside, exerting dominance over others is a major component of rape and that is what vampires are all about - from the kiss, to the blood bond, to their mind control abilities, to the twisted relationships between sires and chiller or domitors and ghouls, to how vampires control politics. Drinking blood may not be sexual exactly, but in a sense it serves as the vampiric equivalent of sex. Though, it is meant to be a dark game about playing a monster, that is in part the point.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
        How so?
        Metaphors being literary devices used by authors to convey a message identifies the role of a metaphor in writing, it doesn't demonstrate knowing how they work.

        You've been doing the equivalent of taking, "The wealthy man looks down from his penthouse on the ants below," and ranting about how humans don't have six limbs and how bad the authors are for trying to shock people by taking the plight of the poor to such extremes.

        Even if you have a hypothetical point about this hypothetical treatment of poor people, you're still going on about the humans don't have extra limbs part so much it's hard to get what the point of what you're trying to say is.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
          I think that it’s unfair to call the White Wolf authors “edge lords” what ever that means. I suppose it means someone like does things just to shock and offend people, a kind of troll. I don’t think that is an accurate description of the thinking process that went into creating V:tM. People can explore dark and even disturbing topics and themes in a mature way in hobbies and entertainment and that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

          Vampire have often had a strong sexual component to them, at least as far back as the 1800’s and especially in 20th and 21st century vampire fiction. Clearly, in V:tM as well as other stories, there is a strong rape-like element to vampires. Even when the vampires are asexual, the act of drinking blood, the violation, the pleasure experienced by the drinker and the victim, the power the vampire has through the Kiss - it is all quite like rape. In rape, sex aside, exerting dominance over others is a major component of rape and that is what vampires are all about - from the kiss, to the blood bond, to their mind control abilities, to the twisted relationships between sires and chiller or domitors and ghouls, to how vampires control politics. Drinking blood may not be sexual exactly, but in a sense it serves as the vampiric equivalent of sex. Though, it is meant to be a dark game about playing a monster, that is in part the point.
          "It's unfair to call the White Wolf authors edge lords but here's why Vampires are Rape Metaphors...."

          Hence you're only proving my point again and again since WW's writers are not the sole authority or even experts or scholars on Vampire Fiction and Folklore, they only based on VtM only on a vague conception of Dracula (maybe without actually reading the actual novel even carefully but only instead saw Movies of it) and Modern Vampire Films thinking that "Oh this is what Vampires are...they're rapists" which they made this game pretty much not to mention you're also ignoring the fact that WW had a history of hiring rapists and pedophiles to write VtM because they wanted it to be about rape and abuse just to be "Dark and Edgy" simply because "it's the World of Darkness".

          Just like the fact majority of you in this forum want Vampires to be about Rape which none of you have no idea what type of culture you're partaking in but that's okay playing as oppressors "is more fun" I guess.

          Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

          Metaphors being literary devices used by authors to convey a message identifies the role of a metaphor in writing, it doesn't demonstrate knowing how they work.

          You've been doing the equivalent of taking, "The wealthy man looks down from his penthouse on the ants below," and ranting about how humans don't have six limbs and how bad the authors are for trying to shock people by taking the plight of the poor to such extremes.

          Even if you have a hypothetical point about this hypothetical treatment of poor people, you're still going on about the humans don't have extra limbs part so much it's hard to get what the point of what you're trying to say is.
          Then again, metaphors are fully a conscious choice of the writer, it's not some cryptic description of what the author is trying to describe but can't comprehend it while the readers (especially somehow "modern" readers who "know better") pick up on it and "decipher it" and discover "this is what the author was trying to describe" vs what the author is describing with full intent.
          Last edited by Black Blood; 02-02-2019, 03:39 AM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
            Hence you're only proving my point again and again...
            Can you please articulate your point in a more direct and succinct manner that doesn't get into trailing factually questionable rants about the people that make the games we're talking about?

            ....not to mention you're also ignoring the fact that WW had a history of hiring rapists and pedophiles...
            WW doesn't have a particular history with this outside the norm for niche geek/nerd companies. It's one of many industries that's rife with sexual predators because the nature of the community that buys the games makes it very easy for predators to operate. Having hired a number of people that turned out to be predators over the years is not the same as actively hiring predators (which isn't to say that the short run of nWW didn't make some purposeful controversial hires).

            Just like the fact majority of you in this forum want Vampires to be about Rape which none of you have no idea what type of culture you're partaking in but that's okay playing as oppressors "is more fun" I guess.
            Or, rather, the majority in this forum are fine with our horror games where we play the monsters be... about monsters and those monsters be horrifying through metaphors for real world social ills because the metaphor adds a layer of detachment that allows healthy play of darker subject matter. Even if you take sex out of the equation entirely, VtM vampires (and pretty much any vampire that is both inherently monstrous and a playable character) are still participants in extremely unhealthy power dynamics. I'm not a particular fan of V5's "all vampires are evil" approach that nullifies the more shades of grey approach of the previous editions, but the most moral vampires are still creatures that cause significant harm to others.

            Then again, metaphors are fully a conscious choice of the writer, it's not some cryptic description of what the author is trying to describe but can't comprehend it while the readers (especially somehow "modern" readers who "know better") pick up on it and "decipher it" and discover "this is what the author was trying to describe" vs what the author is describing with full intent.
            And.... none of this addresses either how metaphor work as a literary device vs. simply identifying them, or your screeds masking what the hell you're actually trying to say.

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            • #36
              Hello again Blood Lore. Have another Permaban.


              -Pendragon
              Last edited by PenDragon; 02-04-2019, 08:48 PM.

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              • #37
                The biggest problem with using vampires as rape metaphors (which is PART of their dna, but not their entirety) is that feeding is something vampires have to do to survive, which fundamentally breaks down the allegory, as it stops being a malicious exercise of power for the sake of power.

                The degree to which a rape allegory is historically part of the Vampire Mythos is a secondary extension of the degree to which the mainstream culture attached “they’re coming to violate our women” to the dirty outsiders they were demonizing - be it foreigners (Dracula), gay women (Carmilla), etc. One could argue that by the time you get to Anne Rice and the heavy male homoeroticism paired with the “it’s not my fault I need to feed on you” personal horror elements, you’re in thinly veiled “born this way” internalized homophobia territory.

                Of course speaking of vampires as metaphors for “dirty outsiders” - combining drinking blood and conspiracies of clandestine elites that secretly control major social institutions to oppress the majority has some unavoidable roots in the history of antisemitism. Not alleging antisemitism in the part of any specific writer, just that these tropes have roots people don’t think about.
                Last edited by glamourweaver; 02-02-2019, 01:34 PM.


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                • #38
                  Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
                  The biggest problem with using vampires as rape metaphors (which is PART of their dna, but not their entirety) is that feeding is something vampires have to do to survive, which fundamentally breaks down the allegory, as it stops being a malicious exercise of power for the sake of power.

                  The degree to which a rape allegory is historically part of the Vampire Mythos is a secondary extension of the degree to which the mainstream culture attached “they’re coming to violate our women” to the dirty outsiders they were demonizing - be it foreigners (Dracula), gay women (Carmilla), etc. One could argue that by the time you get to Anne Rice and the heavy male homoeroticism paired with the “it’s not my fault I need to feed on you” personal horror elements, you’re in thinly veiled “born this way” internalized homophobia territory.

                  Of course speaking of vampires as metaphors for “dirty outsiders” - combining drinking blood and conspiracies of clandestine elites that secretly control major social institutions to oppress the majority has some unavoidable roots in the history of antisemitism. Not alleging antisemitism in the part of any specific writer, just that these tropes have roots people don’t think about.
                  Yup exactly.

                  I think the "rape metaphor" association exactly came from a mistranslation of Dracula which is actually about "Foreigners coming to rape our women" as much the same that you know who spouts about Mexicans today since Dracula was originally written with racist intent and turned up to eleven with FW Murnau's Nosferatu (which is also where the "Burn in Sunlight" weakness came from as well).

                  And Carmilla was originally a homophobic polemic demonizing gay women pretty much but at least the Web Series reclaimed her as a "Broody Gay Antiheroine" though.
                  Last edited by Black Blood; 02-02-2019, 01:41 PM.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
                    If you keep missing the point I don't think there's any further discussion...
                    It's a purely text based medium with a very wide range of people reading things. If asking for clarity from you is going to end the discussion, it feels a lot less like I'm missing something and lot more like you don't have a point beyond trying to dress up an attack on people as some poorly constructed literary critique because just saying it directly is an overt violation of the forum rules.

                    So, maybe I'm just missing the point because I'm presuming you're trying to make a point in good faith, when you're really just trying to dance around making a point so it doesn't look like you're really just attacking people... and I'd really like for you to show that my presumption of good faith isn't faulty.

                    ...because having Vampires as soley rape metaphors IS edge lordship at it's best...
                    Good thing no edition of VtM has made vampires solely rape metaphors, even if VtM has from its beginning playing heavily with the sexual violence metaphors from the beginning.

                    I think this is outright denial here
                    Then cite something please? Who am I in denial about being a known rapist or sex offender before being hired by any incarnation of WW, rather than their activities coming to light after they'd been hired?

                    If you follow VL on Twitter, I doubt you have any issues with the idea that the RPG community has a whole needed to clean up it's act when it comes to sexual predators since she's talked about or pointed to plenty of non-WW affiliated problem people. There is clearly far too big of a problem that crops up in multiple companies and/or at multiple conventions/etc. to be explained by the purposeful hiring of bad people for the sake of being edge lords.

                    I think you should read these series of tweets from dr bear cleric about the "Vampires as Rape Metaphors" which explains better than I can:
                    I've read it before now, and I don't see the connection to what you've been saying, to quote:

                    "(they CAN be but are not inherently, always, and only about those things)"

                    If that's all you're trying to say? You're saying it poorly, and forgetting that as noted by her, "they CAN be."

                    I think I've explained before that Metaphors are fully on the writers conscious choice, not based on subconsciousness for readers to identify which leads to things taken out of context pretty much.
                    Yes, but that skips actually showing how metaphors work to go off on a side tangent against Death of the Author interpretations.

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                    • #40
                      Vampires have to drink blood to survive, but they don’t have to drink the blood of unwilling humans to survive. A vampire can survive entirely on animal blood, in fact it could arrange some kind of deal with a slaughter house to collect their excess blood - no additional animal killings required and no pseudo-rape of humans. A vampire could buy human blood or just get permission from humans to drink their blood. There are numerous possibilities to attain blood that don’t involve the kiss. They often aren’t as convenient and or as pleasurable though. Along the same lines, a vampire doesn’t have to blood bond anyone or use any other form of mind control, though never using those powers is inconvenient especially if you’re trying to acquire blood in a completely moral way.

                      Vampires can strive to be good, but the temptation is very strong not to.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                        Vampires have to drink blood to survive, but they don’t have to drink the blood of unwilling humans to survive. A vampire can survive entirely on animal blood, in fact it could arrange some kind of deal with a slaughter house to collect their excess blood - no additional animal killings required and no pseudo-rape of humans. A vampire could buy human blood or just get permission from humans to drink their blood. There are numerous possibilities to attain blood that don’t involve the kiss. They often aren’t as convenient and or as pleasurable though. Along the same lines, a vampire doesn’t have to blood bond anyone or use any other form of mind control, though never using those powers is inconvenient especially if you’re trying to acquire blood in a completely moral way.

                        Vampires can strive to be good, but the temptation is very strong not to.
                        Ami getting Requiem and Masquerade mixed up? Because I was positive vampires couldn’t survive indefinitely on animal blood in the WoD.

                        Also the Beast and frenzies break down discussions of consent and morality on any one to one comparison to human crimes.


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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                          Ami getting Requiem and Masquerade mixed up? Because I was positive vampires couldn’t survive indefinitely on animal blood in the WoD.

                          Also the Beast and frenzies break down discussions of consent and morality on any one to one comparison to human crimes.
                          In Masquerade, almost all vampires can subsist on animal blood. The exceptions would be Ventrue and certain extremely ancient vampires.

                          I'm not as familiar with Requiem, but I think if their Blood Potency is too high then they can't gain nourishment from animal blood.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
                            I always find it absurd for the entire concept of Kindred having "no sex drive" where you could might as well "Vampires are dead which they can't move or think".

                            Vampires are not metaphors for one thing such as being sex, they are literary tools whatever the author uses them to be which in WW's case though, they were written as "rape metaphors" because WW's writers were being edgelords pretty much along with the fact MRH was writing his religious dogma unto a game that his father influenced him as he admitted himself.
                            I did originally too. All the great Victoriana had vampires being the expression of what the populous was reserved or repressed about.
                            But there's a couple of things; The Vampires in the masquerade have their own rules that aren't the same as every other vampire in folklore. A description in the start of 2nd ed (I think) talked about the fact that all of the human urges (food, drink, companionship, sex) are replaced with one urge - just for drinking blood. It is your best sex, best meal and a hit of cocaine all in the blood flowing down your throat.
                            That is what THESE vampires are. No, it doesn't represent all vampires in folklore, and I think you have to be careful with what you're discussing because we're tlaking about THIS game.
                            If you want to houserule your vampires different; go for it. but the baseline that the rest of us are currently talking about is this.

                            https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...esAreDifferent

                            On the Sex metaphor with Masquerade vampires. - Insults against the makers completely aside - I hope this has shown why it's a metaphor, not actual sex, there's a big difference.
                            Is taking blood from a human "sexual" for the human - probably in most cases. (Even for the no pleasure granted by Giovanni, if you've even had a selfish lover.) Is it sexual for the vampire, not really because they have surpassed "Sexual"

                            The themes are there though - Taking blood by force can be "Rapey" but it's not (By technical definition) Rape.
                            You can feed by consent, through seduction, while people sleep or even completely remove their memories of the event. All giving interesting viewpoints and discussion on a topic that is hard to tackle directly for a lot of people.

                            OR a Vampire could treat their blood sources as cattle, not worthy of even knowing their names and it's just harvesting an animal product. (Which most people outside of PETA wouldn't consider sexual, no matter how tasty that honey or egg is)

                            I read the Dr Bear Cleric tweets, and found the points they brought up quite good. The main one is -Stop calling it Rape if sex isn't involved, which seems more to target your comments as an issue instead of backing your points...

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                            • #44
                              In fact, Black Blood - from Dr Bear Cleric
                              "Insisting a vampire is about rape is an unsupported literary theory with many faults."

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                              • #45
                                Hi there, hand of god here, lets drop the rape talk shall we?

                                -Pendragon



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