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  • News Fellowships

    Which Fellowships do you miss?

    It would be interesting some development for the famous oriental organizations Taftani and Itajarana. Something similar to the Vaelderman for the Japanese flavor. If there was a Dark Ages China, I believe that the Fellowships should be, Messianic Voices, directed to Taoism and Buddhism (mainly Buddhism), the Celestial Hierarchy with Pillars and Foundation similar to the Order of Hermes but with extremely different History, Philosophy and Organization. And a set of Taoist Alchemy Trades without central organization with only philosophy, pillars and foundation in common (and different from all other fellowships of Magicians).

    Although it never happened I see the Wizards of Awakening functional in one respect in Dark Ages. His belief in Magic comes from Pillars built in the Umbra, seems to me to work very well to demonstrate the schism of the Latin cultural to Greek in the medieval high culture and to make a parallel of this with Mago with a group of Greek Mages deserting of the Order of Hermes by a literal interpretation of the Ars Magica concept of "other realms of power" building power sources in the realms of Faes, Demons, Ghosts, Spirits that interact with Werewolves and Ether.

    A formalization of the Order of Reason, still without being a threat.

    I thought of including Gypsy mysticism within the Taftani, but it could get too broad.

    And of course the Bodies of Bones in Mexico, which of course would never enter any book because it has no way to have contact with the others.

  • #2
    I would like to see multiple South American Fellowships ( or Crafts ) based on native ( pre-Europeans arrival ) mysticism, beliefs, knowledge, and outlooks of societies and groups of this continent.

    Also some Eastern European folk and countryside Fellowship or Craft, with thier beliefs, knowledge, and methods coming from the time period(s) before the Medieval period.

    Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
    A formalization of the Order of Reason, still without being a threat.
    Could you elaborate what do you mean by this ?
    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 01-16-2019, 06:16 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
      I would like to see multiple South American Fellowships ( or Crafts ) based on native ( pre-Europeans arrival ) mysticism, beliefs, knowledge, and outlooks of societies and groups of this continent.
      Hmm. In the Dark Ages period, say 1200 AD, this would be the Muisca Confederation (who have a pretty cool pantheon of gods I'd love to see detailed in Scion at some point) and the Tairona peoples of Columbia, the very start of the Incan city/kingdom of Cusco, the Chimu, the Chachapoya cloud forrest people, maybe the various groups of people around Lake Titicaca, the Manteno of Ecuador, the Mapuche in the south, and the Jivaroan peoples of the Amazon, maybe?

      While the Jivaroans might reuse the Spirit-Talker set up, several of the others might have their own unique Foundations and Pillars.


      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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      • #4
        With some research it is easy to create South American Fellowships. The problem is that you can do all with combinations of pillars already established, mixing them.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

          Hmm. In the Dark Ages period, say 1200 AD, this would be the Muisca Confederation (who have a pretty cool pantheon of gods I'd love to see detailed in Scion at some point) and the Tairona peoples of Columbia, the very start of the Incan city/kingdom of Cusco, the Chimu, the Chachapoya cloud forrest people, maybe the various groups of people around Lake Titicaca, the Manteno of Ecuador, the Mapuche in the south, and the Jivaroan peoples of the Amazon, maybe?

          While the Jivaroans might reuse the Spirit-Talker set up, several of the others might have their own unique Foundations and Pillars.
          If I may ask - do practice some profession related to culture, sociology, or history ? Or is your knowledge not related to your profession ? You seem to have very considerable knowledge on a wide variety of topics.

          Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
          With some research it is easy to create South American Fellowships. The problem is that you can do all with combinations of pillars already established, mixing them.
          I think that with some time and careful deliberation, new distinct and characterful Foundations and Pillars could be thought up for Fellowships of South American Mages. There is plenty of conceptual and design potential in this regard.
          Last edited by Muad'Dib; 01-19-2019, 06:45 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
            If I may ask - do practice some profession related to culture, sociology, or history ? Or is your knowledge not related to your profession ? You seem to have very considerable knowledge on a wide variety of topics.
            No. I'm just old and read a lot. I've always had an interest in history, and historical RPGs like Vampire: The Dark Ages just added to that. The main reason I'm aware of the Muisca is because my cousin lived in Columbia for about 10 years and met his wife there, so it sparked an interest in the area. I don't even pretend to be any kind of expert. It's mostly just a case that I've heard of these groups at one point or another. The biggest pain is trying to find books that are made for the casual reader rather than academic experts. In the US, you can find lots of books about all sorts of aspects of American, British, Canadian, Western European and Ancient Mediterranean history, and to a lesser degree about China, Japan, Mexico, Russia, India, and the Islamic world. But things like Eastern Europe, Africa, Southeast Asia, and South America are kind of rare. Thankfully, YouTube has a growing number of channels where people talk about all kinds of obscure things, such as the Guarani language in Paraguay or why people fight wars over football.


            What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
            Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

            Comment


            • #7
              I think that the background of Traditions ( and maybe also other Mage groups ) should be expanded and/or change to include the concepts, philosophies, and ideas of the particular Foundations and Pillars from Medieval and earlier periods. Seems to me that the separation of Magick Effects according to Pllars would definitely still be used by Mages to some extent. If it isn't, this should be elaborated upon in the books. I don't see why any Mage group would stop using extensively these outlooks and approaches ; the ideas of the described Foundations and Pillars are evocative and refined.
              Last edited by Muad'Dib; 01-20-2019, 06:23 PM.

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              • #8
                Part of it is an issue of game design. The original game needed a single set of mechanics which would apply to everyone. Otherwise you'd have had ten different sets, plus an eleventh in the Players Guide and nine more in Book of Crafts, still leaving the question of what to do with the Technocracy, Orphans, and others. While this isn't necessarily a bad way to design a game (it's the one Eden's Witchcraft used to some extent), it can get a little overwhelming and it's not the one the original Mage went with (probably because of some of the philosophical underpinnings of the game Stewart Wieck wanted it to focus on).
                I think the easiest way to explore the ideas behind the foundations and pillars in the modern game is with how each Tradition or Craft approaches what Arete means, what their primary Sphere is, and what they traditionally refer to each of the Spheres as. The Tradition books go into this a bit, but probably not to the degree that could be done if one wanted to explore it in depth and with a focus on the Foundation/Pillar system. (One could probably get a decent Storytellers Vault supplement out of it.)


                What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                Comment


                • #9
                  My group solved this dilema of different interpretations of spheres vs the game mechanics by looking at specifically what effect the character wanted to accomplish. Then we looked at the appropriate sphere to match up the mechanics. In summery, the spheres in the magick section of Mage are mechanical abstractions.

                  For example, let's say a Progenitor uses some phermonal spray to mess with a target's emotions. In the Technocracy's paradigm, emotions are a result of biological functions, however you wouldn't use Life for this effect. You would use Mind.

                  Sure, this doesn't correspond to a mechanical IC interpretation of a paradigm, but it avoids confusion and sphere bloat, and keeps the magick system as flexible as intended.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
                    My group solved this dilema of different interpretations of spheres vs the game mechanics by looking at specifically what effect the character wanted to accomplish. Then we looked at the appropriate sphere to match up the mechanics. In summery, the spheres in the magick section of Mage are mechanical abstractions.

                    For example, let's say a Progenitor uses some phermonal spray to mess with a target's emotions. In the Technocracy's paradigm, emotions are a result of biological functions, however you wouldn't use Life for this effect. You would use Mind.

                    Sure, this doesn't correspond to a mechanical IC interpretation of a paradigm, but it avoids confusion and sphere bloat, and keeps the magick system as flexible as intended.
                    I think in the Progenitors' case it is most sensible and interesting if they have nine sections of Enlightened Biology and Biochemistry, for each of the nine kinds of Magick ; possibly it could be less or more. So they would make a clear distinction between Life and Mind Effects, and other kinds of Magick would also be done through Enlightened Science involving biology and biochemistry ; as I think it should be according to what is written in M:tA books.
                    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 01-21-2019, 03:06 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Let's see ... as far as the original question of Chinese Dark Ages goes, looking at my historical atlas, this would be the later half of the Song Dynasty (roughly 960 to 1279 AD), who had recently lost part of their northern holdings to the Jin Dynasty (1115 to 1234), with the two being at war with each other up until the Mongols rolled in and conquered both. There's also the Western Xia or Tangut empire in the west from 1038 to 1227. The main religions are Daoism, Buddhism, and traditional folk religion, with minorities of Muslims, the Kaifeng Jews, and Manichean gnostics, as well as a handful of Nestorian Christians. There's some interesting work going on in astronomy, mathematics, engineering and other sciences.

                      So, there's the Akashic Brotherhood, who might could be divided into three or four groups if one wanted to (the Kannagara monks, the Shi Ren civil servants, the Vajrapani warriors and the Junni mystics), the Wu Lung imperial wizards, Chinese Artificers, the Cosian House of Hua T'o, Shenist Spirit Talkers, Ahl I Batin, Lions of Zion, and two flavors of Messianic Voices. Plus the Wu Keng in whatever form they are at the time (I don't have Book of Crafts handy atm) and the Cult of Ecstasy sect whose name I am blanking on.


                      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                        I think in the Progenitors' case it is most sensible and interesting if they have nine sections of Enlightened Biology and Biochemistry, for each of the nine kinds of Magick ; possibly it could be less or more. So they would make a clear distinction between Life and Mind Effects, and other kinds of Magick would also be done through Enlightened Science involving biology and biochemistry ; as I think it should be according to what is written in M:tA books.
                        My point was that we used the sphere system as mechanical abstractions instead of trying to figure out if a Progenitor would be allowed to use the Life sphere for Mind effects. Your suggestion could be the case, but we just assumed that the Technomancers long since chucked most of their Hermetic roots, including most of the IG interpretation of the sphere system. We haven't played Mage since before M20 came out, and I mean no offense to Brucato, but if we did ever get a game going we won't ever use the rules in HDYDT nor would I ever play in a game that partook in them. It's why I emphasize this is what my group did rather than speak as if this is what's written in the book. Between 4 editions and homebrew, there's lots of options for Mage players to use what works for them in the existing systems.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
                          My group solved this dilema of different interpretations of spheres vs the game mechanics by looking at specifically what effect the character wanted to accomplish. Then we looked at the appropriate sphere to match up the mechanics. In summery, the spheres in the magick section of Mage are mechanical abstractions.

                          For example, let's say a Progenitor uses some phermonal spray to mess with a target's emotions. In the Technocracy's paradigm, emotions are a result of biological functions, however you wouldn't use Life for this effect. You would use Mind.

                          Sure, this doesn't correspond to a mechanical IC interpretation of a paradigm, but it avoids confusion and sphere bloat, and keeps the magick system as flexible as intended.
                          What's wrong with using life to alter the brain chemistry of someone? It might work as intended, maybe not, within the scopes of affecting the target biologically instead of mystical mind powers. It would likely be slower to take effect, or drain out the system at an unpredictable rate.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                            What's wrong with using life to alter the brain chemistry of someone? It might work as intended, maybe not, within the scopes of affecting the target biologically instead of mystical mind powers. It would likely be slower to take effect, or drain out the system at an unpredictable rate.
                            Because then should I be able to use Spirit instead of mind for paradigms that don't see the separation of mind, body, and spirit; that different souls are responsible for different aspects what we consider the property of the mind? Or should we be able to use Life for cultures that view things as water and rocks as living beings the same as trees and animals? Or what about a more scientifically accurate paradigm where Matter effects would be used for what is considered governed by Forces?

                            I mean no disrespect with the above questions, but the whole system falls apart when you approach the mechanics like this. You get sphere bloat, and psychotically overpowering one Sphere and/or paradigm over others. There really should have been a much sharper difference made between the mechanics a player uses for a character's magick versus what spheres in-universe are considered. Better yet there should have been different termonology for both.

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