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Fuel Types and Crossed Characters - What Breaks?

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  • Fuel Types and Crossed Characters - What Breaks?

    So when you have a character that is a supernatural but with a lesser form of another added as a merit (i.e. Kinfolk Mage, Kinain Werewolf), normally there is a forbiddence against having multiple fuels. A kinfolk with Gnosis can't awaken or undergo the Chrysalis; a Kinain Mage can't tap into glamour at all, which limits the use of certain Fae Gifts (especially glamour fueled Birthrights).

    I know the in-universe explanation about how the energies represent connections that override any other efforts. I also understand some hesitation in letting a character have too much power. But... it seems odd to me. Glamour, Gnosis, and Quintessence are equivalents - the resonances vary, but they all are more or less different forms of the same energy. And while I get the rules argument... the ST does get to veto if they think it's too powerful, so why shutter the gate so hard? (Especially the Gnosis one, since a kinfolk buying Gnosis is super expensive... for a character who is a kinfolk and something else to buy the Kinfolk merit and even just a point of Gnosis, you need at least 8-9 Free points, depending on if you use the mortal 3-point or mage 4-point version of the Kinfolk merit).

    Does anyone have any thoughts, math, or experience with allowing crossing of the fuel pools like this (not counting Vitae since that is always its own thing)? Has it become super broken? Alternatively, do you have experience with alternatives (i.e. a mage using Quintessence to fuel a kinfolk gift or kinain art/birthright)?

  • #2
    Putting more than one set of mechanics on the same character exponentionally increases the difficulty of running it for the player and the ST. Its the equivalent of giving the player two Pcs. IF you wouldn't have an issue with someone running two separate pcs then you've probably hit all the major issues. This is the major issue.. you will of course have MANY minor exceptions like certain powers being MUCH easier for certain types vs others this heavily shifts what sort of creatures are acceptable antagonists.. for example Autumn Folk are not protected against Gifts, Or Faith, or Sorcery or True Magick.. this makes the MUCH easier to handle for your multitier character. Similarly does Kinain True Mage get around Paradox if he's using arts? So why is it when he turns water into wine with Metamorphosis its not paradoxical but if he uses Matter it becomes so?

    Next you have the pool issue. A kinain has 2 points of glamour to play with forever. That's all they can ever spend at a time. They might have access to dross but that's it. If you let a Sorcerer or True Mage spend Quint/mana for that.. suddenly they have pools on par with The most powerful Kithain... which makes them "all our Strengths none of our weaknesses". This situation isn't as bad with Gnosis where spending 5 in a round is not something your Kinfolk really would get much play out of..(outside Mother's TOuch I think?)

    Finally you have restoring your Pool. Kinain might have it easiest especially in that Banality does jackshit to them.. SO they go out and Ravage a couple of people they suddenly have an ease of magical restoration on par with your average Kindred.. but without the dangers of killing anyone and the issues in there all you'd do is leave a bunch of people angry/sad. So you get something that can blow 10 Glamour/quint multiple times a session presuming it only takes an hour or two in game time to restore(ravaging is a hell of a quick pick up) so combine that with the fact that Fairy arts allow you to spend glamour to buy successes.. you have some really crazy levels of power.

    This is before you get into the obvious of some powers by themselves edge into brokeness(I'm looking at you Naming) if you match it up with other powers it dosn't normally play with it gets pretty crazy.




    I personally would never let someone run in the same scene multiple PCs but that's just a level of complexity i find not worth it on either end. I GENERALLY give hybrids some equivalent advantage. For example Kinain Changeing Breeds all gain access to the Fairy Gifts as in tribe, this also heavily implies that Fianna and Celican are all naturally Kinain. which I have no issue with and may give them both said advantage for free if I am running a crossover heavy game.

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    • #3
      Yeah, I know it definitely can get complicated. Though I actually wouldn't have as much issue with multiple characters myself (minionmancer types do it all the time). But that is a good point about single fuel pools... I had been considering an exchange rate (generally 2 for 1, to represent inefficiencies in converting from one to another) to mitigate that though.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by EndlessKng View Post
        Yeah, I know it definitely can get complicated. Though I actually wouldn't have as much issue with multiple characters myself (minionmancer types do it all the time). But that is a good point about single fuel pools... I had been considering an exchange rate (generally 2 for 1, to represent inefficiencies in converting from one to another) to mitigate that though.

        You could put caps on them as well. "SPend no more than x amount on an effect

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        • #5
          This is an issue that I have encountered as well. For my own games, I prefer to use the Mana Background from Sorcerer for Mortal+ characters. Mana can replace Gnosis, Glamour, Blood Points or Tass for the requited expenditure needed for Thaumaturgy, Gifts, Rituals, Oaths or activating Devices, Fetishes or Treasures. Any rolls required can use appropriate Attribute + Occult/Meditation/Gamarye or Willpower as detected by the Storyteller.


          Mana (Background)
          Whether they call it chi, essence, ki, pneuma, psychic energy, ionized electrolytes or any number of other traditional names, sorcerers can tap into sources of energy that empower them in their performance of magic. Meditating or resting on ley lines, in holy places or even in supercharged chemical baths grants the magician who understands their nature a source of power. Other sorcerers ingest a diet of rare substances believed to invoke potency or engage themselves in strenuous rituals, exhausting daily regimens of practice or hypnotic empowerment. Whatever the individual's methods, she exhibits an energy that helps her work her Art, a force described by some as being akin to breath or spirit, or, in Latin, “Mana.”
          When performing Path or ritual magic, a sorcerer may expend Mana to lower the difficulty target number. As usual, her difficulty cannot be lowered by more than three; however, Mana may reduce threshold instead, though never below one. Recovering Mana requires the sorcerer to perform her chosen method of recharging and succeed in a Perception + Meditation roll, difficulty 7, with each success restoring one point.
          * May store a pool of/expend one Mana
          ** May store a pool of/expend two Mana
          *** May store a pool of/expend three Mana
          **** May store a pool of/expend four Mana
          ***** May store a pool of/expend five Mana
          Last edited by MythAdvocate; 04-25-2019, 07:58 PM.


          “Humpty had always sat on walls, it was his way.”
          Jasper Fforde, The Big Over Easy

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          • #6
            Originally posted by EndlessKng View Post
            So when you have a character that is a supernatural but with a lesser form of another added as a merit (i.e. Kinfolk Mage, Kinain Werewolf), normally there is a forbiddence against having multiple fuels. A kinfolk with Gnosis can't awaken...

            Where is this stated? AFAIK in W20 and M20 a Kinfolk Mage can buy the Gnosis Merit, and get up to Gnosis 3. Could you please point to this rule for me?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post


              Where is this stated? AFAIK in W20 and M20 a Kinfolk Mage can buy the Gnosis Merit, and get up to Gnosis 3. Could you please point to this rule for me?

              It's in the various books pre-20. Kinfolk Unsung Heroes spelled it out pretty hard for Kinfolk - those who had Gifts couldn't become Mages or Changelings or benefit from Kinain benefits, and those who manifested those other powers couldn't get Gifts or Gnosis.

              I think this did start to loosen a BIT in the Revised era. The Revised Mage Kinain and Kinfolk merits both allowed the possibility of learning Arts and Gifts respectively, so that was a possibility. However, they also clearly stated that you didn't get the fuel for taking those merits, and didn't make merits that granted fuel available for them in the book.

              The LARP rules allowed one POSSIBLE exception - a mortal character built under the Laws of the Hunt Players Guide (which didn't have a merit cap) could potentially buy both Kinain and Kinfolk AND buy the Faerie Blood Merit (which gave a dot of Glamour and the potential to buy more dots, up to a total of the Merit's rating) and the Gnosis Merit, in addition to having the Mana Background if a Sorcerer. But, in that case, you're still fairly limited - up to five Glamour, three Gnosis, and 5 Mana (and I don't think it was possible to take both Gnosis 3 and Faerie Blood 5 at CharGen - there wasn't a Merit cap, but there was a Flaw/Negative Trait cap that made you choose one or the other to max out - you could only hit 15 total free traits on merits, RAW, and thus were capped at buying Kinain for three, Kinfolk for 3, and then spreading the remaining 9 points between Faerie Blood and Gnosis - and since Gnosis started at 5 traits for one Gnosis, that meant even a dot through the Merit limited you to Faerie Blood - and thus a potential Glamour - of 4).

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