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Rank/title and advanced pc/npc starting XP for Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Changeling.

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  • Rank/title and advanced pc/npc starting XP for Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Changeling.

    Hello,

    (This is my first post, and English is not my first language (French is), so I am sorry if the way I write might be hard to understand, and for any typos and errors. Don’t hesitate to ask for clarifications)

    In the book Vampire 20th, on page 79, there is an explanation on how much experience points you should give a character if he is more advanced than a starting character. Also, it shows what is the name of each ‘’categories/rank/title’’ of advanced characters.

    Kindred Age Category Experience Points

    Neonate 0-35
    Ancilla 75-220
    Elder 250-600
    Methuselahs 1000+

    That been said, In the other books I have (Werewolf 20th, Changeling 20th and Mage 20th), I have not founded this kind of information. I also have a few books of Mage 2nd and Mage revised, but I haven’t found anything useful in these books (but feel free to point it to me, and If I have the book in question, I will look again).

    I have also done some research on theses forums and founded theses links:

    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...acter-creation

    (In the link above, the suggestion comes from Revised Werewolf storyteller handbook and it is given in the form of starting dots.)

    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...oints-question

    In the link above, we have this info (given in xp):

    Cliath 0-35, fostern 45-75, adren 85-220, athro 250-500, elder 600+

    And there are also these two next links:

    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...and-experience

    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...ension-revised

    So, all of that been said, I am looking for 3 things for these 4 games:

    1 - I would like to know the ‘’rank/title/whatever’’ used in each game for different character. In fact, I have it for Vampire and Werewolf, and, I know for Mage it goes something like this: Initiate, disciple, adept, master. However, if you have something more detailed, please fell free to post it (for all four games). I have no idea about ‘’rank/title’’ used in the Changeling universe, but I would like to have it.

    2 – I would like to have the amount of XP you give a character (PC or NPC) when you want it more advance, like what I found officially in the V20 book, p.79 (written above). I would like to have this kind of info for Werewolf, Mage and Changeling.

    3 – I would also like to have the same info as in point 2, but in the format of ‘’starting dots’’ (like what I have founded on the first link in this post), but for Vampire, Mage and Changeling.

    Also, feel free to post any information that is a little different than what I have found.

    Thanks a lot in advance for your time!

    (The main reason I ask for all this is because I want to properly create my setting with all NPCs in the 2 or 3 cities where my game will take part.)

    P.S. If there is any kind of info regarding mortals, I will also take it!

  • #2
    (I'll allow myself to "bump" my post )

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    • #3
      There's not really a set way of how to handle this.
      I go by what makes sense for the character's age and personality. Preplanning things like this out doesn't allow as much fluidity in play and forces way too much planning on the part of the GM when encountering an NPC they'll meet once.
      Good rule of thumb is 1 XP per year of existing plus some extra for living more dangerous or spending lots of time training. Then just look at the ratings and powers and ask if it would make sense for the character to have that level. Obviously a random guy on the street won't have Dexterity 4, Brawl 3 unless he's exceptional.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Lightbringer1 View Post
        Cliath 0-35
        Fostern 45-75
        Adren 85-220
        Athro 250-500
        Elder 600+
        W20 - Rage Across the World, page 6.

        Originally posted by Lightbringer1 View Post
        Neonate 0-35
        Ancilla 75-220
        Elder 250-600
        Methuselahs 1000+
        V20 - Core, page 79.
        Last edited by lbeaumanior; 04-12-2020, 11:58 AM.

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        • #5
          Good post!

          About vampires theres something in a revisesd suplemment. I am in phone so I cannot find it now.
          About Generation, age, humanity and backgrounds, how can I build a Elder using chargen?

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          • #6
            From older editions:

            Vampire:

            -Archons & Templars (entire sourcebook for high status characters)
            -Elysium: The Elder Wars (entire sourcebook for Elder characters)

            Werewolf:
            -Rage Across Worlds as mentioned above

            Mage:
            -Initiates of the Art (a sourcebook for "half mages", something like 0 lvl characters in AD&D)
            -Masters of the Art (A sourcebook for Masters)

            Don't know if there was something similar for Wraith, Changeling or Hunter.

            For Vampire you can also use downtime rules described in Transylvania Chronicles and Giovanni Chronicles. You can create a starting character using Vampire: the Dark Ages and expand them using downtime rules. But remember, the older the character is the harder is its advancement (more XPs needed).

            IfI remember correctly in antagonist section of every Core rulebook is a "more powerful NPCs creation" part.

            In "Under A Blood Red Moon" in NPCs section is a guideline for more powerful vampires/werewolves. I believe it could be easily adapted for Mage, Changeling, Wraith or Hunter.

            Or use your imagination. If you think something is OK and your players think so then it's OK.

            And remember that older characters (especially Cainites) should have at least a few impractical abilities (like archery).
            Last edited by Nail Eater; 04-20-2020, 06:51 AM.


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            • #7
              Can anyone think of a good reason why you couldn't just use the nominal XP for a Rank 5 Garou to instead make a Mage Master?


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              • #8
                Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
                Can anyone think of a good reason why you couldn't just use the nominal XP for a Rank 5 Garou to instead make a Mage Master?
                Ok, that is a solution I didn't think about. But there's a major difference between Spheres and Gifts. To advance to the rank of master you need (from 0 sphere level and 1 Arete) 160 or 170 xp (tradition speciality sphere or other sphere). To have all gifts from your race/auspice/tribe you need 306 xp (assuming that you have 3 starting gifts). Remember also that disciple have 6 dots of Spheres for free (from 45 dots). Cliath have 3 gifts from 35 (using 2nd edition, 2 gifts for race, 3 for auspice, 2 for tribe). And Spheres are more powerful than gifts.


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                Saint among the sinners
                Pure among the dirt
                Loser among winners

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nail Eater View Post

                  Ok, that is a solution I didn't think about. But there's a major difference between Spheres and Gifts. To advance to the rank of master you need (from 0 sphere level and 1 Arete) 160 or 170 xp (tradition speciality sphere or other sphere). To have all gifts from your race/auspice/tribe you need 306 xp (assuming that you have 3 starting gifts). Remember also that disciple have 6 dots of Spheres for free (from 45 dots). Cliath have 3 gifts from 35 (using 2nd edition, 2 gifts for race, 3 for auspice, 2 for tribe). And Spheres are more powerful than gifts.
                  I'm not sure how vigorously I want to defend to the 600 -- but I'm convinced it's the right ballpark, particularly considering that buying a single non-specialty sphere from 0 to 5 costs 90 XP, and the Mage presumably wants to buy stats that aren't magic.

                  Having said that, a big difference between Garou and Mage is that Garou aren't supposed to have an overly hard time learning their Breed/Tribe/Auspice gifts (some spirits may ask for chiminage or a task or quest--but ultimately they're supposed to be learning these things, and they learn it instantly once the Spirit imparts the knowledge). Mages have to go find this knowledge, and it takes a long to learn spheres.

                  If you look at the Revised Mage book The Bitter Road (and I cite this because I don't know that M20 treats on the matter at all), there's a table in there that explains the benefits for training a sphere with the aid of a Library or Mentor background. To do this, it provides a baseline of how long it takes to learn any given sphere from 0 to 1 (1 month), 1 to 2 (6 months), 2 to 3 (1 year), learning a Sphere from 3 to 4 takes five years, and from 4 to 5 takes 10 years. Notably, the book says (with regard to how much of that time actually has to be spent just straight studying), "it's not like the mage has to sit sequestered in Sanctum for a full year doing nothing but studying. Rather, it refers to time the mage must engage in moderate study, practice and general familiarity with the sphere in question." I read this as being downtime during which the mage is not actively out there adventuring, but during which other things may be pursued nevertheless. Additionally, I wouldn't let people necessarily "study" multiple things at once unless they were affirmatively taking additional time to study. So that Mage with 600 XP and all those spheres may be relatively old--not by vampire standards, but certainly by human or shifter standards--and may need to live off-world to keep his longevity spells working correctly. Garou live fast and die relatively young a lot.


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                  • #10
                    It all depends on how you spread your points around, really.
                    On a Revised online game I'm on, my Mage character has 566 Xp - which is, of course, a LOT in theory. But on the other hand it means that the character has Arete 4, two spheres at 4, the rest at 3 (Which is admittedly a potent base), and a couple really nice attributes/stats - but nowhere anything 'everything to the max'. Three abilities at 4 with a lot at 1, 2 or 3 (But nowhere near 'I have the everything' - a lot of them are at 0), five attributes at 4 (which admittedly was an XP sink given the physical stats started low, but it absolutely made sense to raise them purely based on the character's backstory), but also a couple at 2 and 3.
                    One merit gained post-cg, but it wasn't expensive.

                    So yeah, while those XP *just* put into spheres would get you insane Mage stats, it's always important to consider all the other stuff as well for a 'realistic' character progression. The character feels far from a master. A quite potent Mage, especially post-avatar-storm? Sure. But hardly near any endgame.

                    It really, really depends on if you min/max or not.

                    Edit:
                    To add - no Wonders, and a strict paradigm. This is actually a character that a random raging Garou on the street out of CG could potentially impromptu tear-up. Let that sink in.
                    Last edited by Ambrosia; 04-22-2020, 02:49 AM.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
                      I'm not sure how vigorously I want to defend to the 600 -- but I'm convinced it's the right ballpark, particularly considering that buying a single non-specialty sphere from 0 to 5 costs 90 XP, and the Mage presumably wants to buy stats that aren't magic.

                      Having said that, a big difference between Garou and Mage is that Garou aren't supposed to have an overly hard time learning their Breed/Tribe/Auspice gifts (some spirits may ask for chiminage or a task or quest--but ultimately they're supposed to be learning these things, and they learn it instantly once the Spirit imparts the knowledge). Mages have to go find this knowledge, and it takes a long to learn spheres.

                      If you look at the Revised Mage book The Bitter Road (and I cite this because I don't know that M20 treats on the matter at all), there's a table in there that explains the benefits for training a sphere with the aid of a Library or Mentor background. To do this, it provides a baseline of how long it takes to learn any given sphere from 0 to 1 (1 month), 1 to 2 (6 months), 2 to 3 (1 year), learning a Sphere from 3 to 4 takes five years, and from 4 to 5 takes 10 years. Notably, the book says (with regard to how much of that time actually has to be spent just straight studying), "it's not like the mage has to sit sequestered in Sanctum for a full year doing nothing but studying. Rather, it refers to time the mage must engage in moderate study, practice and general familiarity with the sphere in question." I read this as being downtime during which the mage is not actively out there adventuring, but during which other things may be pursued nevertheless. Additionally, I wouldn't let people necessarily "study" multiple things at once unless they were affirmatively taking additional time to study. So that Mage with 600 XP and all those spheres may be relatively old--not by vampire standards, but certainly by human or shifter standards--and may need to live off-world to keep his longevity spells working correctly. Garou live fast and die relatively young a lot.
                      Sorry to say that but my math doesn't agree with you. Using 2nd edition core rulebook: I play mage with Arete 1 and no dots in p. ex. Correspondence. To became a master I must have Arete 5 and Correspondence 5. Cost of each level of Arete is current rating x8 which means 8+(2×8)+(3×8)+(4×8) that means 80. First dot in a sphere costs 10xp, next levels 8 times current level (assuming that Correspondence isn't my speciality sphere) so it's 10+8+(2×8)+(3×8)+(4×8)=90 as you said. BUT 80+90 equals 170. I know that every other Sphere will be cheaper (cause you don't have to raise Arete but still it's less than buying gifts from your race/auspice/tribe). And don't change the subject, we talked about how much xp you need to become a Master/Elder not how much time 😉. And of course that average player will invest in other stats too. Also you have to remember that achieving Elder rank means that you have to reach certain levels of glory, honour and wisdom and it has nothing to do with xp. Theoretically you could play Cliath with 600 xp spend but that also means that your character is a stupid coward.
                      Last edited by Nail Eater; 04-22-2020, 01:27 PM.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                        It all depends on how you spread your points around, really.
                        On a Revised online game I'm on, my Mage character has 566 Xp - which is, of course, a LOT in theory. But on the other hand it means that the character has Arete 4, two spheres at 4, the rest at 3 (Which is admittedly a potent base), and a couple really nice attributes/stats - but nowhere anything 'everything to the max'. Three abilities at 4 with a lot at 1, 2 or 3 (But nowhere near 'I have the everything' - a lot of them are at 0), five attributes at 4 (which admittedly was an XP sink given the physical stats started low, but it absolutely made sense to raise them purely based on the character's backstory), but also a couple at 2 and 3.
                        One merit gained post-cg, but it wasn't expensive.

                        So yeah, while those XP *just* put into spheres would get you insane Mage stats, it's always important to consider all the other stuff as well for a 'realistic' character progression. The character feels far from a master. A quite potent Mage, especially post-avatar-storm? Sure. But hardly near any endgame.

                        It really, really depends on if you min/max or not.

                        Edit:
                        To add - no Wonders, and a strict paradigm. This is actually a character that a random raging Garou on the street out of CG could potentially impromptu tear-up. Let that sink in.
                        Ok, I agree with you. But we talked about fastest (cheapest) way to achieve rank of a Master. I was a Werewolf/Vampire/Mage ST, I know a few things about Wraith/Changeling/Mummy/etc. and I mess with character creation/evolution a lot. You can read it here:

                        http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...ith-it-and-how


                        Warrior of the Rainbow
                        Saint among the sinners
                        Pure among the dirt
                        Loser among winners

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                        • #13
                          I misunderstood--I thought we were discussing how to approximate with raw XP what an actual Master might look like if created and leveled organically through actual play (or at least, how much XP to spend on an NPC to make it look congruous within the setting), and analyzing how the system puts a check on Sphere and Arete accumulation given that there's only 9 Spheres.

                          Originally posted by Nail Eater View Post
                          But we talked about fastest (cheapest) way to achieve rank of a Master.
                          I somehow missed the point of the exercise; having said that, if the point here is just a thought exercise concerned with the mathematics in a vacuum (no RP or setting considerations), I think there's handful of things we need to take into account here.

                          Originally posted by Nail Eater View Post
                          To became a master I must have Arete 5 and Correspondence 5.
                          Well, depending on how you read the rules, you need the fifth level in any sphere to be considered a Master (though I think there's an argument to be made for being considered a Master if you "merely" have Arete 5, but I'm just going to go with the 'needing rank 5 in one sphere' construction). And if that's the case, and you want to get to Master as soon as possible, forget "Correspondence 5" -- let's just say "Affinity Sphere", since that's going to be the cheapest and (presumably) quickest Sphere to get to 5.

                          Originally posted by Nail Eater View Post
                          Cost of each level of Arete is current rating x8 which means 8+(2×8)+(3×8)+(4×8) that means 80. First dot in a sphere costs 10xp, next levels 8 times current level (assuming that Correspondence isn't my speciality sphere) so it's 10+8+(2×8)+(3×8)+(4×8)=90 as you said. BUT 80+90 equals 170. I know that every other Sphere will be cheaper (cause you don't have to raise Arete but still it's less than buying gifts from your race/auspice/tribe).
                          I don't even see the point of doing the math based on non-Affinity Sphere if we're just concerned with the shortest/fastest mathematical route between starting character creation rules and "Master".

                          A starting character, by the book, doesn't have to start the game at Arete 1--they can spend Freebies to get up to Arete 3 at start. From there it's just 56 XP to get to Arete 5. Realistically there's also a shortcut to getting their specialty sphere bought up to 5 by making sure you start the game with 3 in the specialty sphere (using the dots you're given to spend at character creation), and it will only cost you another 49. So that 170 is arbitrarily based on sub-optimal character creation choices--really what we're looking at here is just 105 XP, and boom, you're technically a Master.

                          Getting back to this statement you made:
                          Originally posted by Nail Eater View Post
                          But we talked about fastest (cheapest) way to achieve rank of a Master.
                          Assuming that this general objective, "fastest (cheapest)", goes for the Werewolf analysis as well, it should be pointed out that it doesn't actually cost any XP to be a Rank 5 Werewolf. As you correctly point out, you just need the Renown for it, and that's it. So if we're not concerned with setting, and only with math, why are we considering it necessary for a werewolf to buy all of their Breed/Tribe/Auspice Gifts to be Rank 5? Hell, even if we were concerned with setting, there are plenty of in-the-books Rank 5 werewolves that don't have literally all of their Breed/Tribe/Auspice gifts.

                          For that matter, you can be an Elder or Methuselah Vampire purely by age, but have nowhere near the levels of XP above.


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                          • #14
                            If we are going by fastest/cheaptest/twinkiest/max munchkin/horror-of-all-STs, well, it comes down to simple math. Let's take Mage.

                            Getting all spheres at Rank 5 costs 800 xp in theory. Getting only one at 5 and the others at 4 is 544 xp in theory, but enough to be a Master. Though of course you get 6 sphere dots in CG.
                            Spreading 6 sphere dots on level 1 spheres saves you 60 XP. Spending them on two level 3 spheres saves you 65 XP (because one needs to be your specialty sphere).
                            Yes, you need Arete 3 for the latter, but the 8 freebies spent on Arete 3 save you 24 XP, which is the best bang for the buck.

                            So, Arete 3 + 2 level 3 spheres saves you the most. Do not spend more freebies on spheres - instead, spend them on Sphere Natural (5pt) and Dual Traditions (7pt). Yes, this requires 5 points in flaws. Take physical ones and fix them with Life down the line.
                            The former Merit allows to reduce the total XP cost of another sphere (that you don't have yet) from 90 to 67.
                            The latter allows you to reduce the total XP cost of yet another sphere (That you don't have yet because munchkining it) from 90 to 80.

                            This gets you a total of 109 xp of Spheres/Arete in CG. The cost of the remaining spheres gets reduced from 438 (all level 4 except one at 5 which makes you a 'master') to 415 (because you are getting rank 5 on your 'Sphere natural' sphere). The remaining Arete costs 56, so 467 XP in total.

                            The rest of XP reductions ACTUALLY come down to roleplay. Find a good mentor. Build up a library. Hunt down Grimoires. All those things make learning spheres faster and/or cheaper. You'll be on your way of Masternessess in no time! Just don't fail the Seekings.

                            EDIT: Adjusted so only 1 sphere ends up at rank 5.
                            Last edited by Ambrosia; 04-22-2020, 05:19 PM.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
                              If we are going by fastest/cheaptest/twinkiest/max munchkin/horror-of-all-STs, well, it comes down to simple math.
                              Setting aside the premise of the question (that we're disregarding setting), how do you think XP amounts for Werewolves of different ranks, as put forward above, works for creating Mages at their own respective 5 ranks? Note, I'm asking this for the sake of my desire to refine the process by which I make my own NPCs (so this necessarily goes beyond a simple math problem).



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