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Rank/title and advanced pc/npc starting XP for Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Changeling.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
    Setting aside the premise of the question (that we're disregarding setting), how do you think XP amounts for Werewolves of different ranks, as put forward above, works for creating Mages at their own respective 5 ranks?
    I think it works...well enough, really.
    As I said in my first post, it all depends on how much you toss the XP into <insert magickal stuff here> wether the XP equal actual mage rank and ability or not, but ~200xp is a solid middle ground, which fits it sitting..well, right in the middle of the table, and the 600xp make a really good top tier.
    So yeah, I think that table is quite fine.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
      Getting back to this statement you made: Assuming that this general objective, &quot;fastest (cheapest)&quot;, goes for the Werewolf analysis as well, it should be pointed out that it doesn't actually cost any XP to be a Rank 5 Werewolf. As you correctly point out, you just need the Renown for it, and that's it. So if we're not concerned with setting, and only with math, why are we considering it necessary for a werewolf to buy all of their Breed/Tribe/Auspice Gifts to be Rank 5? Hell, even if we were concerned with setting, there are plenty of in-the-books Rank 5 werewolves that don't have literally all of their Breed/Tribe/Auspice gifts.

      For that matter, you can be an Elder or Methuselah Vampire purely by age, but have nowhere near the levels of XP above.
      Ok. My point was that it's not a good idea to use werewolf Elder XPs to create a Master. That's why I put all gifts for race/tribe/auspice/rank and confront it to the XPs you need to achieve mastery in an affinity sphere. And I know that to become a Master one need only one 5-dot Sphere.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Ambrosia View Post
        If we are going by fastest/cheaptest/twinkiest/max munchkin/horror-of-all-STs, well, it comes down to simple math. Let's take Mage.

        Getting all spheres at Rank 5 costs 800 xp in theory. Getting only one at 5 and the others at 4 is 544 xp in theory, but enough to be a Master. Though of course you get 6 sphere dots in CG.
        Spreading 6 sphere dots on level 1 spheres saves you 60 XP. Spending them on two level 3 spheres saves you 65 XP (because one needs to be your specialty sphere).
        Yes, you need Arete 3 for the latter, but the 8 freebies spent on Arete 3 save you 24 XP, which is the best bang for the buck.

        So, Arete 3 + 2 level 3 spheres saves you the most. Do not spend more freebies on spheres - instead, spend them on Sphere Natural (5pt) and Dual Traditions (7pt). Yes, this requires 5 points in flaws. Take physical ones and fix them with Life down the line.
        The former Merit allows to reduce the total XP cost of another sphere (that you don't have yet) from 90 to 67.
        The latter allows you to reduce the total XP cost of yet another sphere (That you don't have yet because munchkining it) from 90 to 80.

        This gets you a total of 109 xp of Spheres/Arete in CG. The cost of the remaining spheres gets reduced from 438 (all level 4 except one at 5 which makes you a 'master') to 415 (because you are getting rank 5 on your 'Sphere natural' sphere). The remaining Arete costs 56, so 467 XP in total.

        The rest of XP reductions ACTUALLY come down to roleplay. Find a good mentor. Build up a library. Hunt down Grimoires. All those things make learning spheres faster and/or cheaper. You'll be on your way of Masternessess in no time! Just don't fail the Seekings.

        EDIT: Adjusted so only 1 sphere ends up at rank 5.
        Hell yeah, that's the spirit. "My kung fu is better than yours" 😁. It reminds me of my friend, who was a real expert in using loopholes like this. Every time the character/creature/vehicle (Mech, Shadowrunner, character for Fading Suns or WoD) was created from a certain pool of points he could spread them to create monster. Like his Fianna, who could ignore 2 or 3 botches and reroll 3 rolls per game/story (the luckiest guy on Earth). And that's why I created my own "rules" for creating/expanding characters.
        Last edited by Nail Eater; 04-24-2020, 05:55 AM.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
          Setting aside the premise of the question (that we're disregarding setting), how do you think XP amounts for Werewolves of different ranks, as put forward above, works for creating Mages at their own respective 5 ranks? Note, I'm asking this for the sake of my desire to refine the process by which I make my own NPCs (so this necessarily goes beyond a simple math problem).
          I don't think that's a good idea. As you said earlier werewolves generally learn fast. Mages don't. I don't have Bitter Road, but if my math is correct achieving mastery in one Sphere is a hell of a job. And the older one is the harder is learning. So I would rather use system taken from Vampire, dividing the age by 10. So 100 years old Mage would have 1000 XPs. But I would also use age rules from Vampire, the older the character is the more XPs he needs to get next dot in attributes/skills/etc., also divided by 10. Like IRL, older people usually have problems with p. ex. modern technology. I would also consider using downtime rules from Transylvania Chronicles and Giovanni Chronicles: you have to spend some XPs simply to maintain backgrounds (it's hard to keep friendships when you spend most of your time in a study or otherworld). And, for sadistic STs, aging rules from Werewolf Player's Guide.
          Last edited by Nail Eater; 04-24-2020, 01:09 AM.


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          • #20
            A little more powergaming: evolution. A (character type) could evolve into (character type). As far as I know:

            Werewolf (and other Fera) -> Vampire (Abomination). It could also became a Wraith if it's Wyrm-tainted. Couldn't become a Mage (but Uktena could learn Hedge Magic and Silent Striders could use some of Gypsie's powers). Couldn't become a Changeling, Hunter or Demon. Could theoretically become a Mummy. Could also be ghouled.
            Vampire -> end of the road. If you're Embraced you stay Embraced until your Final Death.
            Wraith -> could become Risen or Kuei-jin.
            Changeling -> if I remember correctly a Changeling who was overcomed by Banality becomes ordinary mortal. So could be Embraced, forcibly Awakened, end in Shadowlands or become Mummy or Demon. I doubt it could become Hunter.
            Demon -> as with Vampires. They start with dead body and if they are exorcised they left a dead body.
            Mummy -> as with Vampires
            Hunters -> cannot be Embraced. If they loose their powers (that's even possible?) could be Embraced, forcibly Awakened, end as a Wraith, Mummy or Demon. I doubt they can become Garou or Changeling.
            Mage -> can't experience First Change or Chrysalis. Can be Embraced or thrown into the Shadowlands after death. I believe that they cannot be Mummified, Imbued, maybe eventually possessed by Demon.

            Did I miss something 🙂?

            Of course that I did: everyone (except Wraiths) could become fomori 😈.
            Last edited by Nail Eater; 05-23-2020, 04:26 PM.


            Warrior of the Rainbow
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            Loser among winners

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