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Alternative(maybe?) canon origins of the Imbued?

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  • Alternative(maybe?) canon origins of the Imbued?

    So... as far as I know, there are two different canon origins about them.

    1. One follows KotE cosmology very well. Ebon Dragon and Scarlett Queen may create them.
    A. stuff in HtR ST Companion heavily hints the origin of Kuei-jin in KotE corebook. Precedented Imbued are created to fight against Yama Kings, later they are cursed for stealing Chi from mortals and become the Kuei-jin we know.
    B. Book Hermit also implies this.
    C. ToJ of KotE suggests you can put them in your game.

    2. The other follows the D:tF cosmology well. Sorry I'm not familiar with Demon.
    A. I only know Imbueds may be the biggest foe of Demon according to the D:tF ST Companion.
    B. And some claims that, divine and infernal paths in Fall from Grace of H:tR imply you can gain Lv.5 Edges from Angels and Earthbounds.
    C. And ToJ of D:tF directly says Lucifer creates them as his armies.

    3. Some think both of them are the one. SQ and ED in KotE are the last two Angels on Earth.

    So what's your opinion? I want to talk about this only on canon perspective(After all you can rewrite anything in your game). Please correct or tell me more details.
    Last edited by Rock113; 07-09-2019, 12:48 AM.

  • #2
    The third option, IIRC, is the "canon" one. The Messengers are angels, possibly the last two or at least the last two who give a shit about earth. The Yomi Lords are a type of demon. The August Personage of Jade is God with a capital G.

    The real issue is that Dekon doesn't play well with others. The whole multiple layers of reality thing doesn't change the fact that it makes it real hard to fit certain elements into setting. But, inasmuch as they can play nice, the intent was for the imbued to be created by Angel's who also are Yin and Yang embodied.

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    • #3
      The Ministers are One very bored Solar during the First Age. Just One.

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      • #4
        I like that Imbued are the shattered and divied up Exaltations of some of the Solars. They are invested in mortals as much weaker form of the Ten Thousand Immortals.


        It is a time for great deeds!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by EndlessKng View Post
          The third option, IIRC, is the "canon" one. The Messengers are angels, possibly the last two or at least the last two who give a shit about earth. The Yomi Lords are a type of demon. The August Personage of Jade is God with a capital G.

          The real issue is that Dekon doesn't play well with others. The whole multiple layers of reality thing doesn't change the fact that it makes it real hard to fit certain elements into setting. But, inasmuch as they can play nice, the intent was for the imbued to be created by Angel's who also are Yin and Yang embodied.
          First of all thanks very much. I used to think this thread is completely missed.

          So do you have more specific information about this option? But I agree with you. In my opinion KotE and D:tF both have completely different cultural backgrounds. It IS difficult to combine both of them.

          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
          I like that Imbued are the shattered and divied up Exaltations of some of the Solars. They are invested in mortals as much weaker form of the Ten Thousand Immortals.
          Sorry but to be honest I don't know what’s the “Solar”, “Exaltation”... Are they in Exalted? I just look through this game by wiki. IIRC its 1st edition interacts more with CWoD than latters, in 3rd edition this section is completely removed.

          And I remember KotE corebook mentions that precedented hunters who would become Kuei later were still mortals, but they can travel between material and spiritual worlds and gain energy from others( Also mentioned in Hunter ST companion) which make them much more powerful than Modern Imbued.
          Last edited by Rock113; 07-17-2019, 03:01 AM.

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          • #6
            To simplify just consider Imbued a weaker form of the Wan Xian, they are weaker to I believe curb the danger of them being compromised,and they are disposable yet useful.


            It is a time for great deeds!

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            • #7
              I don't believe they are shattered, broken what have you.. a Hunter's essence is to a Solar Exalt shard as a Ghoul's is to an Antedeluvian. Connected and empowered but not making the Ante any less. The previous Wan xian being more like Kindred in this analogy...but still not coming close.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                To simplify just consider Imbued a weaker form of the Wan Xian, they are weaker to I believe curb the danger of them being compromised,and they are disposable yet useful.
                Well add a question, Do you know traits Wan Xian has?

                Descriptions about Wan Xian are vague, I think maybe you can use the system of KotE to represent them?... but this will be a different game compared to H:tR...

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                • #9
                  They are vague, the Wan Gui seem to have degenerate versions of their Disciplines.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                    They are vague, the Wan Gui seem to have degenerate versions of their Disciplines.
                    I know this, that's why I say using Kuei's system to portray them. Discipline section of KotE corebook mentions that some disciplines can date back to Wan Xian. One of them even points it out directly(Obligation).

                    Maybe they are un-cursed "living" form of Kuei-Jin? They can drain Chi from everywhere and don't have some disadvantages Kuei have, which like being harmed by sunlights.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Rock113 View Post

                      I know this, that's why I say using Kuei's system to portray them. Discipline section of KotE corebook mentions that some disciplines can date back to Wan Xian. One of them even points it out directly(Obligation).

                      Maybe they are un-cursed "living" form of Kuei-Jin? They can drain Chi from everywhere and don't have some disadvantages Kuei have, which like being harmed by sunlights.
                      Yeah and it was before they needed Dharmas to tie to their Powertrait so it was probably a less constraining power trait limiting them.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #12
                        To get some ideas of their powers look to how Shintais worked in Blood & Silk and go back towards even more direct and organic control of the elements. Soul Disciplines might be somewhat accurate, there would be no Demon Disciplines since the Po is clearly one of the marks of their fall.

                        They would breath in Chi harmlessly from the environment but this would also mean that they need time to regain their strength if they overextend themselves, which is why the Yama King’s could corrupt them by teaching them to rip Chi from others to gain more power and regain their strength faster. This forced consumption of Chi might have even been what Awakened the Po within them driving them further into corruption and growing strong from the stolen Chi.

                        They had no weakness to sunlight, remember Yu shot down a few extra suns which would require him to be in their light.

                        If they had a powerstat, which they may not necessarily had, it would be something they grow into, ie buy with exp instead of being tied to Dharma’s. But they might not have a powerstat and instead might have been capable of reaching their full potential just by learning. In modern terms they would have no Dharma but could raise their Attributes, Abilities and Disciplines to their maximum potential through experience, said maximum being 10.

                        They also could pass some of their power to their Golden Children who while not as powerful as the Wan xian were still quite formidable, their exploits worthy of legends of their own. Their murdered souls being reborn into Dhampyrs ever since their fall.

                        Those are my opinions about the matter YMMV but they are based on what we know of the Wan Xian based on KotE sources.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                          To get some ideas of their powers look to how Shintais worked in Blood & Silk and go back towards even more direct and organic control of the elements. Soul Disciplines might be somewhat accurate, there would be no Demon Disciplines since the Po is clearly one of the marks of their fall.
                          The ToJ of KotE also mentions that the God grants Shih the true mastery of Qiao(Lv.6-7) to make them be equal to the Wan Xian. Maybe different writers have different ideas...

                          But generally speaking, Wan Xian and Imbued are almost two different splats. Imbueds almost inherit nothing from their ancestors...yeah very weak...

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                          • #14
                            AFAIK there isn't much contradiction between DtF and HtR WRT to the status of the imbued. Days of Fire mentions figures who could be the Scarlet Phoenix and Ebon Dragon (likely are) whilst Apocrypha had Fyodor encountering two beings who had rings with different colored stones (Black for the man, red for the woman) which also suggests those two. So that they were involved with the imbued seems beyond dispute.

                            The main issue I think is not so much the concept's general idea as opposed to the interpretations of specific details. And 'the Infernal' for HtR kinda goes into this. In broad strokes there was a civil war/rebellion by cosmic beings that lead to exile/imprisonment, and those beings return. Whether it has an explicitly Judeo-Christian flavor or if that's mythological bias is more a perspective issue. As I've mentioned elsewhere WoD has always treated the 'native' system as supreme canon for a given cosmological interpretation (EG the details of other storyteller systems are subordinate to that POV - so you have multiple 'truths' depending on which game you're looking at.) But even within Demon's framework there's a lot of wiggle room (The Fallen for example didn't come out of imprisonment unscathed, and many are depicted as mad. Further the possession of the bodies they take to stay free may impose greater limits on them than they faced in ancient times. Hell, its implied that in terms of then and now there's a TREMENDOUS amount of difference in other ways - like how reality itself is. Things were apparently a lot more fluid/less 'regimented' back then from the DtF backstory I recall.)

                            Apocrypha also has Fyodor delving into the possible past origins of the Imbued (among other things) and links them explicitly to heroic figures of the past (like Hercules, etc.) and posits that the Imbued are basically 'watered down' heroes because of time and the lack of a superhero breeding program. Which isn't really that different from the idea that the Imbued are the successors to the Wan Xian (now the Wan Kuei) - since Hunter's own background suggest that the Imbued were the Messenger's second attempt at creating heroes. (Storyteller Companion and Handbook especially take this view.) The original heroes were a lot stronger, but became corrupted (like the Kuei Jin) and the Imbued were created as they were to keep that from happening again.

                            Again in broad strokes the ideas are consistent, but the specific details (was it God, the August Personage of Jade, or some other creator-figure) may differ.

                            This can also apply (to an extent) to throwing Exalted into the mix (since that was as I recall the intent) but I do think Exalted diverges more significantly from the WoD at the 'detailed' level so you encounter more problems (like when it comes to Ages, I think.) Still works fairly well in broad strokes, but its really the Exalted-WoD link that makes me think in terms of parallel universes ala Dark Tower.

                            Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                            A. I only know Imbueds may be the biggest foe of Demon according to the D:tF ST Companion.
                            The Infernal hunt book takes that same tack as well as I recall. The Imbued even have certain 'advantages' against Demons (like Second Sight forcing demons to use more faith to use their powers when active.) The Imbued cannot be possessed at all and its very very hard to make thralls of them outside what is described in Fall from Grace and the Infernal.

                            [quote]
                            B. And some claims that, divine and infernal paths in Fall from Grace of H:tR imply you can gain Lv.5 Edges from Angels and Earthbounds.

                            That is covered in Fall from Grace (and I think Infernal too). But Hunters can also go 'independent' with level 5 edges and achieve them on their own strength (at the cost of madness.) - Its a bit like what happened in Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey I think?

                            Divine path is basically 'become a tool of the Angels/Messengers' but lose a lot of your free will on top of the mental degeneration you already suffered. Infernal path is 'Demons grant you power but use it as leverage to try and get at your body and soul' because at the point you get level 5 edges you're deteriorating mentally and becoming more supernatural. Independent path - as I said - is basically you grab the level 5 edges on your own but shatter your mind in the process for 'breaking the rules' the Messengers set up basically.

                            Indeed the analogy used in FfG is that the Divine edges reflect a person given great power by their boss outside the normal hierarchy, but also exhaustively micromanaged. Whilst the independents reflect rising in rank through the existing structure. In the case of the former you're more directly controlled, whereas in the latter you have relatively more autonomy. Same goal, different route.

                            I suppose there's Dark Ages: Inquisitor as well which seems to be 'Dark Ages: Hunter' and their powers (also by conviction as I recall) were drawn directly from God which would add another parallel (Imbued are given external/divine power - a more structured sort of 'True Faith' I guess?)

                            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                            To simplify just consider Imbued a weaker form of the Wan Xian, they are weaker to I believe curb the danger of them being compromised,and they are disposable yet useful.
                            Again I believe that's precisely how the Storyteller books describe it as working, which works in broad strokes with the Kindred of the East depiction.

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                            • #15
                              Well the Demon Storytellers Companion points out that while they normally can't be possessed if drained of their conviction they are vulnerable, or if they volunteer possession. And in becoming Imbued they make perfect vessels for Celestial Faith, as in they count as Faith Ten, which means when the Greater Lords of Hell start breaking out Imbued would make perfect hosts.


                              It is a time for great deeds!

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