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Alternative(maybe?) canon origins of the Imbued?

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  • #16
    Well, I forgot to tell another clues, in W:tA Stargazer Revised book, they talked about the hunters:
    One young Theurge, who must've been mistaken, said that in the spirit world, one of their bodies was noncorporal, with two bright eyes staring ahead. One black like ebony, the other red like rubies.
    Red, Ebony, nother easter egg.

    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    Well the Demon Storytellers Companion points out that while they normally can't be possessed if drained of their conviction they are vulnerable, or if they volunteer possession. And in becoming Imbued they make perfect vessels for Celestial Faith, as in they count as Faith Ten, which means when the Greater Lords of Hell start breaking out Imbued would make perfect hosts.
    Well guys sorry, but I want to answer another quesion, I heard of that there is a canon HtR plot that a group of hunters met a kuei-jin, and they found him a little similar.Do you know the source of this? Sorry, but The plot of HtR is mostly shattered, and to me it's difficlut to find details...



    *I heard of that it comes from ghosts-related plots, the Walking Dead, stuff about the Orphic Circle and so on...

    EDIT: Well, found this, chapter 6 of the Walking Dead, azrael256 encountered a female gui ren in chinatown and felt a little kinship on her at moment. He even discuss this kind of kinship later...

    So, did anyone know about the canon crossover between HtR and KotE?

    I just know this and Asia section of Survival Guide, and Xian Quan in creed book. The 1000 Hells also implies the imbueds, well.
    Last edited by Rock113; 12-27-2019, 01:13 PM.

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    • #17
      My opinion is that the Imbued are another test run of the Wan Xian, what the Kuei-Jin was before their corruption and shirk of duty in the Celestial Chorus. I also think the euphemism for "Angel" is Umbric spirits from the Astral Reaches/High Umbra, so the Messengers Scarlet Phoenix and Ebon Dragon could be highly powerful Incarnae with the ability to grant power like how all Spirits can grant gifts to material beings of their choosing. Also we know for a fact that the August Personage of Jade is wholly a different being from the Abrahamic one.

      The forum mate heinrich in my previous thread about the weird inconsistencies in WoD mentioned that different Gods were given jurisdiction in different parts of Earth/Gaia, so that will solve the reasoning why the "Demons" (dark Umbric Spirits) never encountered the Wan Xian during their war against "God" (the Abrahamic one). This also explains the reason for no Vampires in Asia, while their are Vampires in Western Eurasia (and somehow Africa); with Vampires also making bounds to the new world later on too. (Stuff with Mummy: The Resurrection allows all of this to make sense aswell)

      Now the Wan Xian before their corruption by the Yama Kings (who are different Demons from the ones in D:TF entirely since they can own whole realms, armies, and were never sent to the 'Abyss' that somehow implied in the center of or underneath Oblivion) were taught to extract Chi from living lifeforms, which sparked their tyranny and fall from grace to being cursed. Before that the Wan Xian fought against the servants of the Yama Kings (which the succeeding Kuei-Jin do now for the most part.. Emphasis on most) and also against other corrupted maligned Shen (Supernatural) to protect humanity.

      It is also noted that the Fera (Shapechangers) were long standing splat, as they knew of the Wan Xian and they read as Weaver when sensed, so they were met with little to no suspicion and also praised to their dedication to protecting Gaia.

      The Imbued fit the MO of the Wan Xian before their corruption, either hunting down other Supernaturals mercilessly, trying to reformat/rehabilitate, or gain more insight into the condition of these "Monsters". Even though the Imbued astoutly deny or don't even acknowledge it, the Imbued are Supernautral aswell and they can perceive others with that condition too with the ability granted to them by the Messengers. Also according to KoTE lore as noted at the very beginning of my post- the Scarlet Phoenix and Ebon Dragon were responsible for appointing new Wan Xian directly after old veteran Wan Xian gained enough insight to ascend to Heaven.

      So what actually could be the case is the Imbued ARE the Wan Xian brought back at the Days of Reckoning. It makes perfect sense, because remember it is said that when the Wan Xian were punished by the August Personage of Jade their ability to breath was taken away and had to rely on tainted Chi to live (aka making them Hungry Ghosts/Undead). The modern "Imbued" are a return of the Wan Xian and a "Reckoning" for the Supernatural on Earth.
      Last edited by Shakanaka; 12-28-2019, 12:03 AM.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
        My opinion is that the Imbued are another test run of the Wan Xian, what the Kuei-Jin was before their corruption and shirk of duty in the Celestial Chorus. I also think the euphemism for "Angel" is Umbric spirits from the Astral Reaches/High Umbra, so the Messengers Scarlet Phoenix and Ebon Dragon could be highly powerful Incarnae with the ability to grant power like how all Spirits can grant gifts to material beings of their choosing. Also we know for a fact that the August Personage of Jade is wholly a different being from the Abrahamic one.

        The forum mate heinrich in my previous thread about the weird inconsistencies in WoD mentioned that different Gods were given jurisdiction in different parts of Earth/Gaia, so that will solve the reasoning why the "Demons" (dark Umbric Spirits) never encountered the Wan Xian during their war against "God" (the Abrahamic one). This also explains the reason for no Vampires in Asia, while their are Vampires in Western Eurasia (and somehow Africa); with Vampires also making bounds to the new world later on too. (Stuff with Mummy: The Resurrection allows all of this to make sense aswell)
        That detail about gods having different jurisdictions is actually a story that Kitsune tell their kits and presumably others who listen. As in, that was written in the book as to how they explain so many different similar spirits.

        Now the Wan Xian before their corruption by the Yama Kings (who are different Demons from the ones in D:TF entirely since they can own whole realms, armies, and were never sent to the 'Abyss' that somehow implied in the center of or underneath Oblivion) were taught to extract Chi from living lifeforms, which sparked their tyranny and fall from grace to being cursed. Before that the Wan Xian fought against the servants of the Yama Kings (which the succeeding Kuei-Jin do now for the most part.. Emphasis on most) and also against other corrupted maligned Shen (Supernatural) to protect humanity.

        It is also noted that the Fera (Shapechangers) were long standing splat, as they knew of the Wan Xian and they read as Weaver when sensed, so they were met with little to no suspicion and also praised to their dedication to protecting Gaia.

        The Imbued fit the MO of the Wan Xian before their corruption, either hunting down other Supernaturals mercilessly, trying to reformat/rehabilitate, or gain more insight into the condition of these "Monsters". Even though the Imbued astoutly deny or don't even acknowledge it, the Imbued are Supernautral aswell and they can perceive others with that condition too with the ability granted to them by the Messengers. Also according to KoTE lore as noted at the very beginning of my post- the Scarlet Phoenix and Ebon Dragon were responsible for appointing new Wan Xian directly after old veteran Wan Xian gained enough insight to ascend to Heaven.

        So what actually could be the case is the Imbued ARE the Wan Xian brought back at the Days of Reckoning. It makes perfect sense, because remember it is said that when the Wan Xian were punished by the August Personage of Jade their ability to breath was taken away and had to rely on tainted Chi to live (aka making them Hungry Ghosts/Undead). The modern "Imbued" are a return of the Wan Xian and a "Reckoning" for the Supernatural on Earth.
        Wan Xian and Imbued differ on one very significant point as to their MO, and that's because the Wan Xian were described as cultivators of some variety who sought out power and awareness of the world around them. The hunters? Not even a smidge. Wan Xian got to learn how to swim slowly, over many years; Imbued get thrown in the deep end with barely a life jacket, in comparison.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
          Wan Xian and Imbued differ on one very significant point as to their MO, and that's because the Wan Xian were described as cultivators of some variety who sought out power and awareness of the world around them. The hunters? Not even a smidge. Wan Xian got to learn how to swim slowly, over many years; Imbued get thrown in the deep end with barely a life jacket, in comparison.
          Speaking of this, in my opinion I want to frame a KotE's ToJ plot, the imbueds were turned into the original Wan Xian to fight against Yama Kings, meaning the return of Ten Thousand Immortals. I wonder what will happen when ren gui realize these previous lesser, tiny rivals are actually the recreation of their ancestors... interesting, really. When ren gui faces their uncorrupted successors using the original and greater form of their Disciplines...haha

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          • #20
            Well I'm a little hazy on Hunter: The Reckoning, but I remember and mentioned in my post that one faction/outlook of the Imbued were one that wanted to in-depthly understand the "Monster"/Supernatural- gathering up all knowledge and detail before striking at their query. That could be one aspect of the Wan Xian manifesting them. Wan Xian also didn't explicitly seek out power until the age of tyranny when they were taught by the Yama Kings on purpose to harvest living Chi instead of using ambient means. Imbued could be granting their powers abruptly due to the urgency of the coming Age and with the "Fallen" (who in my head-canon are Spirits native to the Low Umbra who are pure manifestations of Oblivion after a portion of its "blood" erupted from the spirit nukes) possessing humans like Banes do.

            To my knowledge, both Imbued and the Wan Xia when they were active are appointed abruptly- with the only difference that the Age the Wan Xia was in being more calm and less on the path of Judgment.


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            • #21
              Again the Wan Xian (or whatever their hunter analogue was) and Imbued are similar but not the same thing. In alot of ways the Imbued are normal people 'touched' by the supernatural - they're invested with their powers but are not - as far as we know - innately magical for the most part. A connection of sorts may exist (the 'blood royal' as Fyodor speaks of in Apocrypha, albeit greatly thinned. The storyteller supplements - sa do others - reinforce that the Imbued represent a 'quantity over quality' approach compared to their predecessors.) In alot of ways they're like DtF's thralls or VtM's ghouls. They can have those powers invested in them but its not really innate. They're more fragile vessels. If they lack conviction they aren't a whole lot different from normal people (although some differences DO exist.) If they gain real power from their 'patrons' or are otherwise corrupted (Divine or infernal imbued) they can be broken. But even if they achieve that power through thir own merits they can still go crazy (and the 'independent' level 5 imbued ar perhaps the closest to the Wan Xian.. either that or the 'lost' creeds which also represent 'extreme power breaking fragile humans.')

              But even in all those cases, there remain certain fundamental differences. Fyodor in apocrphya speaks of humanity having a divided soul (its light and dark halves - which play into yin/yang concepts incidentally) - which is part of that weakness of humanity. We know that the 'ancient' heroes (or Wan Xian, or whatever you want to call them) could siphon energy (chi, quintessence, whatever) from their surroundings or other people. They HAD innate abilities gifted to them somehow that was independent of or in addition to whatever investments they were 'imbued' with. The Hunters don't have that and its a big part of what makes them weaker and more limited I suspect. Indeed the Imbued are closer to many kinds of numina (especially True Faith, which can be seen in Dark Ages inquisitor - the medievel hunter-analogue and a further sign of 'normal people invested by otherworldly powers.)

              In the terms of Fyodor's thinking, and the other stuff we know a 'modern' Wan Xian is probably going to be something like a super-powered Shi (like from Time of Judgement) or a Shi/Imbued crossover (internal power - the ability to harness chi, plus the hunter's edges.) Some other supernatural hybrid, like the Dhampir-Imbued might also resemble that (a bit of the internal power PLUS imbueing) - and be interesting becase a Dhampir (supernatural being with a 'normal' upbringing) is perhaps the closest to a return to what Fyodor talked about in Apocrypha (the vampiric 'darkness' in a dhampir merging with the 'light' of the imbued.) We might surmise some kinfolk, Kinain, and perhaps the numina-imbued (psychics and the like, which would be the closest for mage) would be similar 'hybrid' candidates, but that's just speculation.


              Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
              EDIT: Well, found this, chapter 6 of the Walking Dead, azrael256 encountered a female gui ren in chinatown and felt a little kinship on her at moment. He even discuss this kind of kinship later...

              So, did anyone know about the canon crossover between HtR and KotE?

              I just know this and Asia section of Survival Guide, and Xian Quan in creed book. The 1000 Hells also implies the imbueds, well.
              That was only just part of it, and quite possibly part of the larger revelations bout who Ichmail (in his arguments with Carpenter) and why two supernatural entities had been allowed on Hunter-Net by the Messengers. It hints at alot but as is typical doesn't really touch on alot because, I suspect they wanted to leave those connections open ended. Consider that they covered all the major enemies in separate books (vampires, Mages, Werewolves, Zombies, Demons, and had another that covered minor enemies like Mummies. Fuck IIRC in Survival Guide there's a scene where an imbued meets one of the Shih. But they didn't touch on the Kuei-Jin much AT ALL.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal
                - which is part of that weakness of humanity. We know that the 'ancient' heroes (or Wan Xian, or whatever you want to call them) could siphon energy (chi, quintessence, whatever) from their surroundings or other people. They HAD innate abilities gifted to them somehow that was independent of or in addition to whatever investments they were 'imbued' with. The Hunters don't have that and its a big part of what makes them weaker and more limited I suspect.
                And thats the exact point I made. Why would the Scarlet Phoenix and Ebon Dragon remake the Wan Xian with the exact capabilities, only for them to abuse their power and siphon it off living beings if manipulated by an appropriate maligned force? The point of the Imbued is that they are a 2.0 "nerfed" variation of the Wan Xian. Their Edges for all intents and purposes, despite being interpreted differently by each Hunter, IS supernatural someway no matter how you splice it. We already have direct evidence from the lore that it was those two Spirits that appointed the Wan Xian and we know they are the ones now in the modern era giving Messages to spark Imbued- essentially new appointments. They aren't mere "Ghouls" or "Thralls".. Not mere "Numina" or a fragile vessel (Hunters are far from that).They are much more important in the grand schemes of things. If they weren't a case they would've been another Hunter supplement book made by the myriads by White Wolf before Hunter: The Reckoning. Hunters aren't mere pawns like Ghouls or Thralls at all. They are given a calling- a question and they take from it by their means and rationalize it. The Messengers don't really give orders- only suggestions. At any time in the beginning, a potential Imbued can ignore the heed and go about his life. They are the second Reckoning for almost all the Splats in WoD.

                They aren't meant to be the same exact thing- less they are manipulated by the Yama Kings. The Imbued, despite being significantly weaker than their earlier counterparts- are special because their innate power comes from within themselves, their "Conviction" immensed by their Creed/Calling. The Wan Xian failed in their task in the Celestial Chorus because they were corrupted and weren't tied down by the whims of their own self-thought of how their abilities or power came from- they merely gained it from the ambient source from the environment or drained it from living beings as all life has a "Chi" force. They become the monsters they were created to slay.

                Imbued like the Awakened regardless of them being "human" (to put it loosely) aren't natural. They are explicitly Supernatural due to their capabilities to even briefly give mortality to the worst of the Monsters in WoD and much more. Edges aren't simple "Numina", they are concrete descendant disciplines of the Wan Xian and how they dealt with the "Shen" before their corruption. This isn't even loose headcanon since we know the Scarlet Phoenix and Ebon Dragon (aka the only "Angels" still operating on earth) ARE the ones responsible for the Imbued. The fact that they lose conviction to fight on if they lose all their "Conviction" represents a safe-guard to ensure the Imbued don't stay off track (for the most part as we see with Waywards) and the only way to gain Conviction is to stay true to their Creed- similar how their Undead degenerated Kuei-Jin cousins must stick to a Dharma path to raise their Dharma.

                If Kuei-Jin do acts of Blindness staying from their path, they lose Dharma and are at risk of becoming weaker, with the chance of becoming Chei-Mein again. If they stay on their path- their Dharma continues to raise as they concentuate why they've been brought back. The Imbued- the actual returned Wan Xian with the adequate adjustments share the similar fate as mentioned before- no their is no real chance of a Hunter to go outright corrupt, as even the most collateral intuned Imbued would rationalize the casualties in the grand scheme of destroying the Monster. Loss of conviction for a Hunter is just like a Kuei-Jin, rendered to the base state. For a Kuei-Jin, its the primeval Hungry Ghost that only wants the flesh of the living to gain Chi. For Hunters its losing their stalwart against the horrors of the Dark and retreating like a normal human would do.

                So in a sense, yes Imbued and Wan Xian aren't similar- but to brush off they aren't the same isn't wise since we have alot of tidbits that say otherwise. Despite being weaker than their predecessor, Imbued ARE a more perfect hero than Wan Xian since they have been molded to rationalize their whole existence around killing Monsters solely, even to the point of going completely insane as they gain more insight and experience with obsession. Imbued are like monks- eschewing most personal possessions, while only utilizing what they primely need in The Most Dangerous Game. The Wan Xian on the other hand got distracted by the need of securing personal power and gaining Chi easily from the ones they were supposed to protect, getting into intrigues against eachother and ignoring the evil Shen disrupting the balance of the land.
                Last edited by Shakanaka; 12-29-2019, 12:16 AM.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post
                  It hints at alot but as is typical doesn't really touch on alot because, I suspect they wanted to leave those connections open ended. Consider that they covered all the major enemies in separate books (vampires, Mages, Werewolves, Zombies, Demons, and had another that covered minor enemies like Mummies.
                  Original HtR material about Ren Gui is very few, and the only available one is vague. Maybe they wanted to thicken the relation between two splats which may have the most connection.

                  Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post
                  Fuck IIRC in Survival Guide there's a scene where an imbued meets one of the Shih. But they didn't touch on the Kuei-Jin much AT ALL.
                  As I said above they did this properly. But that shin told the imbueds they resemble the ancient “Celestial Army” (Well, we all know what does he mean.)

                  IIRC descriptions about ren gui in Survival Guide and Xian Quan’s are simple, zombies with rotted skin and black vein, nothing more.

                  *Sorry, but I always wonder what will both of them react when they know the truth...It will be very interesting and impressive.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post
                    (and the 'independent' level 5 imbued ar perhaps the closest to the Wan Xian..
                    Well, I think the divine level 5 edges which are directly empowered by ministers may be the closet. I picked up the Fall from Grace, in the page 100 it recited the origin of imbueds from the ST Comapnion, of course it modified the last pieces to adopt the theme. It says to win the battles with supernaturals and corrupted imbueds, the ministers began to gift hunters more original powers they once wielded after realizing hunters are too weak (Similiarly, isn't it?, and it's obviously divine ones.)

                    Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post
                    In the terms of Fyodor's thinking, and the other stuff we know a 'modern' Wan Xian is probably going to be something like a super-powered Shi (like from Time of Judgement) or a Shi/Imbued crossover (internal power - the ability to harness chi, plus the hunter's edges.) Some other supernatural hybrid, like the Dhampir-Imbued might also resemble that (a bit of the internal power PLUS imbueing) - and be interesting becase a Dhampir (supernatural being with a 'normal' upbringing) is perhaps the closest to a return to what Fyodor talked about in Apocrypha (the vampiric 'darkness' in a dhampir merging with the 'light' of the imbued.) We might surmise some kinfolk, Kinain, and perhaps the numina-imbued (psychics and the like, which would be the closest for mage) would be similar 'hybrid' candidates, but that's just speculation.

                    I do have a plan to recover their original powers using the KotE rules to paly a superhero ToJ games, the imbueds or Shihs or mortals are chosen to become the new Wan Xian. Thank for your everyone helps. I think I can consult KotE, HtR and even DtF. I have some simple thoughts:

                    1. They don't have something like Dharma, meaning they don't have traits limits (aka. Attributes, Abilities and Disciplines and so on are up to 10 dots...).

                    2.They don't have P'o, so they may not need to have soul states and Demon Chi and P'o Natures, etc.

                    3.They have massive Chi similiar to Shih of ToJ, which have 50 Yin Chi and 50 Yang Chi at most (Willpower*normal mortal Chi). I think an imbued can use the similiar rules.

                    4. To Disciplines, Chi Arts may be the same as Ren Gui, Shintai can use the form of Blood and Silk, but Storm, Beast and Smoke Shintai may inaccessible because of their newly. Soul Arts may not have Cultivation, which is used for P'o. To Demon Arts, they may have the"uncorrupted" version of them. The Demon Shihtai form may resemble Dhampir/Jin Hai have, which is rather a greater and more terrible warrior than simple demon...


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                      Well, I think the divine level 5 edges which are directly empowered by ministers may be the closet. I picked up the Fall from Grace, in the page 100 it recited the origin of imbueds from the ST Comapnion, of course it modified the last pieces to adopt the theme. It says to win the battles with supernaturals and corrupted imbueds, the ministers began to gift hunters more original powers they once wielded after realizing hunters are too weak (Similiarly, isn't it?, and it's obviously divine ones.)
                      The Divine edges are the flip side of the infernal edges... they both presume an imbued who has basically been made more of a puppet and has less free will. Arguably the Divine are less free-willed than even the infernals (second sight can fight back against infernal influence, whereas the Divine are simply vessels serving unresistingly.) Independents are the ones who have choice and draw upon their inner strength (reserves) to power those edges (they break through the blocks the Messengers imposed which imposes its own brand of insanity compared to divine/infernal level 5 edges.) A Divine-aligned Imbued is not going to have any leeway to 'fall' or be cursed - they're puppets. But if they did, they'd be infernal by default soo.. still puppets. No real choice to abuse that power. Independents DO have that choice (Fall from Grace even has an 'independent' Avenger who sees the Messengers as the true enemy and the cause of her problems.)

                      The independent is likely to be the only one drawing on their 'internal' power in a way that might resemble tapping 'chi'. They can't suck it from other beings but they presumably can draw on their own (and hence why the level 5 edges risk 'burning out' an independent... again as described in Fall from Grace.)

                      The distinction is explained in a side bar on page 115, but also a larger analogy in 115-116. The divine and infernal are both offering powers that make the imbued little more than a vessel for their chosen patron. The independent rejects both and forges their own path on their own strength. The side bar further amplifies this by stating that the 'divine' gets its power directly from the messengers - their personality is overtaken by that higher power and uses them as a tool. Whereas even though an independent is still 'empowered' by the Messengers, their power is provided through the mechanisms that the Messengers put in place for all imbued with no further meddling from outside forces. Or, as the analogy goes - the Divine are office employees micromanaged directly by the boss, whilst independents rise through the ranks on their own merits to achieve that same power without the micro-management. The Messengers can control the divine character and keep them from acting against their interests far more easily than they can do so with the 'independent' who can decide to go divine, be corrupted, or forge their own path by rejecting both.

                      In Demon terms, a 'corrupted' Imbued is going to be the Thrall of a fallen. Divine would likely be the angelic equivalent to a thrall. Independents are neither.

                      Edit: And then there's the Dragons of the East and their version of the Triat/metaphysical trinity: The tiger, the Dragon, and the Phoenix. The latter two are described as the ebon dragon and the Scarlet Phoenix, and further describes that the Wan Xian were deprived of the Tiger's energies forcing them to subsist on the 'tainted' Yang Chi of the Phoenix. That implies the Wan Xian were empowered by THREE entities, rather than just the two of the Imbued (just the Dragon and Phoenix) - yet another reason for the difference in power (as well as the lack of ability to channel/absorb chi into themselves from other sources, even without the Tiger's energy.) And this still ignores Apocrypha, where Fyodor attributes the decline to a thinning of the 'blood royal' (itself a bit analogous to the Pure ones and Avatars diluting into more and more individuals in MtA I believe.)
                      Last edited by Mister_Dunpeal; 01-02-2020, 06:14 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post

                        Edit: And then there's the Dragons of the East and their version of the Triat/metaphysical trinity: The tiger, the Dragon, and the Phoenix. The latter two are described as the ebon dragon and the Scarlet Phoenix, and further describes that the Wan Xian were deprived of the Tiger's energies forcing them to subsist on the 'tainted' Yang Chi of the Phoenix. That implies the Wan Xian were empowered by THREE entities, rather than just the two of the Imbued (just the Dragon and Phoenix) - yet another reason for the difference in power (as well as the lack of ability to channel/absorb chi into themselves from other sources, even without the Tiger's energy.) And this still ignores Apocrypha, where Fyodor attributes the decline to a thinning of the 'blood royal' (itself a bit analogous to the Pure ones and Avatars diluting into more and more individuals in MtA I believe.)
                        The Metaphysic Trinity from Dragons of the East has some major issues with its grounding, especially in trying to process KotE's undead and upside down issues. One of the most notable problems is associated tigers with yang, when they typically get shuffled into an association with yin (especially when talking about the White Tiger of the West). The Red Bird and Blue/Green Dragon, meanwhile, are both yang, but the latter is used as a symbol of yin yet also somehow being balance because the authors tried to cram in an association with the Primordial Wyrm that doesn't really work.

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