Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Does the Technocracy know about the Kindred?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Does the Technocracy know about the Kindred?

    The New World Order Convention knows about everything, too much from what I understand. Have they penetrated the Masquerade?

  • #2
    The technocracy is of two minds on vampires, on one end the NWO is happy to let them exist as long as they maintain the masquerade. While on the other the Progenitors want them wiped from the face of the earth because they prey on humans.


    You've been playing around the magic that is black
    But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

    Comment


    • #3
      As you might have guessed from their opinions on Kindred, the Technocracy is well aware they exist; as far as they're concerned it's hard to miss the bloodsuckers crawling all over the place.

      By and large, however, the NWO's opinion on them is the Technocratic party line when it comes to dealing with them.


      Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Dwight View Post
        The technocracy is of two minds on vampires, on one end the NWO is happy to let them exist as long as they maintain the masquerade. While on the other the Progenitors want them wiped from the face of the earth because they prey on humans.
        How confident are they of being able to wipe them out? I mean, wouldn't it be kinda hard?

        Comment


        • #5
          Read the revised convention books, answers abound.


          You've been playing around the magic that is black
          But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Dwight View Post
            Read the revised convention books, answers abound.
            I only have the wiki.

            Comment


            • #7
              The Union has always known that "reality devients" - a term that includes vampires, werebeasts, fey, bygones, various spirits, and other things - exist, but there tends to be a scale of priority, with vampires usually being mid to low level unless they are actively conflicting with (usually local) Union interests or are doing something that makes them stand out (terrorism, cult activities). They generally understand vampires' weakness to fire and sunlight, their need for blood, and that there are variations amongst the species. But they don't know much if anything about Caine, the Clans, the various political factions and the like. They also don't know about the 3rd generation and how powerful they would be if they were active.

              That is the default. If you are using the Week of Nightmares scenario that was part of the lead up to Gehenna and Time of Judgement, then after that event the Union becomes aware of the potential danger of ancient blood gods - one of which required the use of multiple nuclear weapons and solar laser satellites to destroy, and killed thousands of people in its wake - and vampires move up a bit in the priority cue. One could consider this part of the catalyst for the Second Inquisition in V5 if you wanted to go that route. In Mage Revised, the Technocracy created, IIRC, Project Sunburst, which involved training certain cabals/units to hunt vampires and thin out their numbers and influence where possible. (If you've ever seen the old BBC miniseries Ultraviolet, it can give you a general idea of it.)


              What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
              Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
                The Union has always known that "reality devients" - a term that includes vampires, werebeasts, fey, bygones, various spirits, and other things - exist, but there tends to be a scale of priority, with vampires usually being mid to low level unless they are actively conflicting with (usually local) Union interests or are doing something that makes them stand out (terrorism, cult activities). They generally understand vampires' weakness to fire and sunlight, their need for blood, and that there are variations amongst the species. But they don't know much if anything about Caine, the Clans, the various political factions and the like. They also don't know about the 3rd generation and how powerful they would be if they were active.

                That is the default. If you are using the Week of Nightmares scenario that was part of the lead up to Gehenna and Time of Judgement, then after that event the Union becomes aware of the potential danger of ancient blood gods - one of which required the use of multiple nuclear weapons and solar laser satellites to destroy, and killed thousands of people in its wake - and vampires move up a bit in the priority cue. One could consider this part of the catalyst for the Second Inquisition in V5 if you wanted to go that route. In Mage Revised, the Technocracy created, IIRC, Project Sunburst, which involved training certain cabals/units to hunt vampires and thin out their numbers and influence where possible. (If you've ever seen the old BBC miniseries Ultraviolet, it can give you a general idea of it.)
                Ah. Well they should perhaps read about the paradoxical nature of war. Like breeds like in war. War is not like an industry, in which improvements are linear. The very effectiveness, and use of a weapon can be the cause of what renders it ineffective. Towards the end of World War 2, for example, bomber planes without radar, were more useful then bomber planes with radar, because German fighters developed a machine to track planes with radar. So the planes with less technology ended up being more effective.

                Using a weapon in war, motivates a once unwary adversary to spend resources countering it. Likewise, war always has a political aspect. As Clausewitz notes, based on his experience during the Napoleonic Wars, the more dire the threat, the more enemies will put their differences aside and unite against you. The more serious the level of threat, the more resources they will spend doing so. And Mages are, after all, at the end of the day - only human - and they have human weaknesses which Kindred are especially made to exploit, seeing as humans are their prey.

                While Vampires may lack, in general, the raw magic of the Union, they do have Social Disciplines that the Mages may be wholly unready for. Dominate, Presence, Dementation. They have Obfuscate, which means they can infiltrate mage circles. They have physical powers, especially the Brujah - trust me, a group of super-fast, super-strong Brujah, with the right weapons, can stand up to a pack of Garou- which makes them akin to nuclear weapons. Shadow magic - any place with any shadows at all becomes dangerous. Flesh-crafting - which means they will be facing more monsters as they lose more men, and if the other vampires let the Fleshcrafters run wild, that could be apocalyptic (there was one scenario where if you failed, one Tzimisce devoured half the world by himself using Fleshcrafting) . The ability to turn into Mist, Animals, and such (meaning even a roach they have to kill to be safe) . And magic of their own mages do not - blood magic, and Mages do have blood. Overall, I think the social Disciplines would be most effective, as mages are social animals, being Kind after all, and just like Kind they can be controlled and manipulated. It wouldn't take control of too many for the Kindred to infiltrate their organizations completely. They may be hardy prey - but in the end they are still prey. And Kindred are adapted to hunt them like sharks are adapted to hunt seals. So while they remain like ships passing through each other in the night - not much will happen. But an organized, and continuous assault on Kindred, would likely cause a response, including unification, and that would be like the sheep going to war with the wolves. Even the strongest mage cannot resist Dominate, and if the strongest mages are dominated - it doesn't matter how powerful their magic is, because such magic then belongs to the Kindred.
                Last edited by Verra; 10-31-2019, 07:46 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Verra View Post

                  Ah. Well they should perhaps read about the paradoxical nature of war. Like breeds like in war. War is not like an industry, in which improvements are linear. The very effectiveness, and use of a weapon can be the cause of what renders it ineffective. Towards the end of World War 2, for example, bomber planes without radar, were more useful then bomber planes with radar, because German fighters developed a machine to track planes with radar. So the planes with less technology ended up being more effective.

                  While Vampires may lack, in general, the raw magic of the Union, they do have Social Disciplines that the Mages may be wholly unready for. Dominate, Presence, Dementation. They have Obfuscate, which means they can infiltrate mage circles. They have physical powers, especially the Brujah. Shadow magic. Flesh-crafting. The ability to turn into Mist, Animals, and such. And magic of their own mages do not - blood magic, and Mages do have blood. Overall, I think the social Disciplines would be most effective, as mages are social animals, being Kind after all, and just like Kind they can be controlled and manipulated. It wouldn't take control of too many for the Kindred to infiltrate their organizations completely. They may be hardy prey - but in the end they are still prey. And Kindred are adapted to hunt them like sharks are adapted to hunt seals. So while they remain like ships passing through each other in the night - not much will happen. But an organized, and continuous assault on Kindred, would likely cause a response, including unification, and that would be like the sheep going to war with the wolves. Even the strongest mage cannot resist Dominate, and if the strongest mages are dominated - it doesn't matter how powerful their magic is, because such magic then belongs to the Kindred.
                  Not exactly, remember that these abilities aren't unheard of, whether used by a vampire with dominate or just a mage using mind magic to do the same, so a full scale war initiative by the Technocracy to wipe out the kindred wouldn't be going in completely blind. They might get caught off guard by the realities of Celerity or Vicissitude its not like those can't be countered. Recall Mages get freeform spell casting, meaning if Dominate were as big a problem as you're suggesting, Mages still get saving rolls, you'd just end up with mages countering by things like anti-memtic visors on operatives to filter out the effects or kindred hidey holes being met by drones with flamethrowers or incidiery ammo, or any number of horrible things that have ever been conceived of by a military that the "technology" hasn't advanced far enough to be practical or make work properly yet. Also recall Vampires aren't part of the paradigm meaning situations of just kindred v convention troops would be able to freely use higher order weapons than they could if sleepers were in the area and there is a limit to how much control a kindred can exert over a sleeper before they stop counting.

                  Not saying either side wouldn't get beaten up heavily in the conflict, but it wouldn't be as your proposed "Well eventually the vampires would understand all the tricks a mage can have and mages couldn't possibly come up with counters to vampire magics ergo the entire Technocratic Union easily becomes cattle for the Kindred."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by nalak42 View Post

                    Not exactly, remember that these abilities aren't unheard of, whether used by a vampire with dominate or just a mage using mind magic to do the same, so a full scale war initiative by the Technocracy to wipe out the kindred wouldn't be going in completely blind. They might get caught off guard by the realities of Celerity or Vicissitude its not like those can't be countered. Recall Mages get freeform spell casting, meaning if Dominate were as big a problem as you're suggesting, Mages still get saving rolls, you'd just end up with mages countering by things like anti-memtic visors on operatives to filter out the effects or kindred hidey holes being met by drones with flamethrowers or incidiery ammo, or any number of horrible things that have ever been conceived of by a military that the "technology" hasn't advanced far enough to be practical or make work properly yet. Also recall Vampires aren't part of the paradigm meaning situations of just kindred v convention troops would be able to freely use higher order weapons than they could if sleepers were in the area and there is a limit to how much control a kindred can exert over a sleeper before they stop counting.

                    Not saying either side wouldn't get beaten up heavily in the conflict, but it wouldn't be as your proposed "Well eventually the vampires would understand all the tricks a mage can have and mages couldn't possibly come up with counters to vampire magics ergo the entire Technocratic Union easily becomes cattle for the Kindred."
                    A Mage can be ghouled. And ghouling a few mages is all it would take. Yes, they have weapons - but the mages would tell Kindred about, and give them such weapons if ghouled. And Kindred are stronger and older. Right now, Kindred by and large don't know about the mages. Just like wolves who don't know about extra-strong or smart sheep. But if they learn, things will change very fast. You are acting like a Mage can automatically spot a Kindred on sight. They may not, and in that case, they will be infiltrated quick, subverted and eaten. The war of course, will be bloody, as mages will create counter-measures too, but Kindred are made to eat and dominate Kind. In the end, I am sure the Kindred will win. Even if it came to a peace treaty, because once the Kindred know of the Mage's existence, they will use their Social Disciplines to infiltrate, and how does a Mage know about domination, and what mage can truly resist, the lure, of immortality?

                    Remember some things: 1 - Any weapon a human can use, a vampire can use and use better. Staking a vampire in the heart will kill them in movies, well, staking a human in the heart will kill them too. A Brujah with a gun is better then a human with a gun. A Brujah with a tank is better then a human with a tank, or fighter jet.

                    2 - If the war gets desperate, restrictions on how many Kindred or Ghouls can be made will be lifted. That means nigh infinite. Remember, any Vampire can Embrace or Ghoul a Mage at any time. Meaning the very enemy becomes their resource.

                    I think at first, Mages would have a surprise advantage if they strike first and hard (though Elder Vampires seem aware of them) but after a first series of attacks, they will realize they made a very, very, big miscalculation.
                    Last edited by Verra; 10-31-2019, 08:07 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Verra View Post

                      A Mage can be ghouled. And ghouling a few mages is all it would take. Yes, they have weapons - but the mages would tell Kindred about, and give them such weapons if ghouled. And Kindred are stronger and older. Right now, Kindred by and large don't know about the mages. Just like wolves who don't know about extra-strong or smart sheep. But if they learn, things will change very fast. You are acting like a Mage can automatically spot a Kindred on sight. They may not, and in that case, they will be infiltrated quick, subverted and eaten. The war of course, will be bloody, as mages will create counter-measures too, but Kindred are made to eat and dominate Kind. In the end, I am sure the Kindred will win. Even if it came to a peace treaty, because once the Kindred know of the Mage's existence, they will use their Social Disciplines to infiltrate, and how does a Mage know about domination, and what mage can truly resist, the lure, of immortality?

                      Remember some things: 1 - Any weapon a human can use, a vampire can use and use better. Staking a vampire in the heart will kill them in movies, well, staking a human in the heart will kill them too. A Brujah with a gun is better then a human with a gun. A Brujah with a tank is better then a human with a tank, or fighter jet.

                      2 - If the war gets desperate, restrictions on how many Kindred or Ghouls can be made will be lifted. That means nigh infinite. Remember, any Vampire can Embrace or Ghoul a Mage at any time. Meaning the very enemy becomes their resource.

                      I think at first, Mages would have a surprise advantage if they strike first and hard (though Elder Vampires seem aware of them) but after a first series of attacks, they will realize they made a very, very, big miscalculation.
                      Not really sparky. First, mages also have the means of immortality, and its not like everyone would jump on the chance of losing the ability to freely warp reality or better guide humanity to make the species cattle, so while some might be tempted the ghouling process is known to taint an avatar. So ghouled mages quickly become less useful in a total war scenario as they would be detectable and since the information can just be forcefully extracted from the ghoul's brain ,with memory mods getting them to return to sender for confirmation tracking in case memory modification was used to obsfucate the vampire's identity.

                      The failure you seem to be going with is that Word of Darkness Mages aren't Dnd-I-cast-magic-missile they're reality warpers using a method to bypass existential resistance. Something Kindred don't pose, and the kindred lack the same method to detect mages you say mages don't have on them. Hell depending on the point in rules you're looking kindred actually lacked any defense against certain spheres. A friend mentioned a period in time where technically because kindred are non-living and not part of the paradigm there was literally nothing stopping a mage using Matter to just turn a Methesualah into a chair.

                      Also I'll point out that this infinite ghouling and embracing thing would very quickly run into the issue of things like Mummies, Demons, and Werewolves who might take offense to the kindred's action and recall canonically vampires do not fare well against the Garou in a fight and do tend to detect the overwhelming smell of Wyrm on kindred.

                      Hell the Technocracy is fond of having their bases off reality which can also screw with the kindred.

                      Regardless you're initial question is answered generally speaking the Technocracy already knows about Vampires. This isn't a question on who wins the war, though you seem heavily biased towards the idea that vampires are an alpha species, so this thread is done.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by nalak42 View Post

                        Not really sparky. First, mages also have the means of immortality, and its not like everyone would jump on the chance of losing the ability to freely warp reality or better guide humanity to make the species cattle, so while some might be tempted the ghouling process is known to taint an avatar. So ghouled mages quickly become less useful in a total war scenario as they would be detectable and since the information can just be forcefully extracted from the ghoul's brain ,with memory mods getting them to return to sender for confirmation tracking in case memory modification was used to obsfucate the vampire's identity.

                        The failure you seem to be going with is that Word of Darkness Mages aren't Dnd-I-cast-magic-missile they're reality warpers using a method to bypass existential resistance. Something Kindred don't pose, and the kindred lack the same method to detect mages you say mages don't have on them. Hell depending on the point in rules you're looking kindred actually lacked any defense against certain spheres. A friend mentioned a period in time where technically because kindred are non-living and not part of the paradigm there was literally nothing stopping a mage using Matter to just turn a Methesualah into a chair.

                        Also I'll point out that this infinite ghouling and embracing thing would very quickly run into the issue of things like Mummies, Demons, and Werewolves who might take offense to the kindred's action and recall canonically vampires do not fare well against the Garou in a fight and do tend to detect the overwhelming smell of Wyrm on kindred.

                        Hell the Technocracy is fond of having their bases off reality which can also screw with the kindred.

                        Regardless you're initial question is answered generally speaking the Technocracy already knows about Vampires. This isn't a question on who wins the war, though you seem heavily biased towards the idea that vampires are an alpha species, so this thread is done.
                        Well Ghouled Mages will serve their Kindred masters, and at the very least, could create a civil war scenario. You are acting like they will have no impact at all, which in a "Total War" as you put it, may become unlikely.

                        Also certain things Mages will have trouble countering - along with Social Disciplines (you are assuming Disciplines work like magic and can be countered like magic, which may not be the case) such as Shadow-Magic and Obfuscate. If the Mages, for example, cannot detect the Nosferatu, because Obfuscate is not the same as magic, they are in a lot of trouble in a war of Intelligence Gathering. And Lasambra, able to infiltrate them at will, can eat them alive. Brujah can physically annihilate them and tear them apart - which you don't seem to appreciate.

                        A lot of this would be like Kindred vs. Garou. Except Kindred can manipulate entire cities to protect them - that is what keeps them safe, and Garou cannot.

                        You mentioned Nuclear Weapons before. Okay. Kindred can use Nukes too. Like I said - any weapon a human can use, a Kindred can use. Thus far they hold back, because they don't want to engage in a bloody war for emotional reasons. They still, by and large, dominate most major human organizations. The Church, the Corporations, the Military. These can be used in a war. And as the Mages use more weapons - such as "Alter-Reality Bases" the Kindred can use them too. That is how wars work in the long-term - any weapon you use, the enemy learns of, and can use back. They can take over Alter-Reality Bases too. You have no idea what Kindred can do once they start eating, and converting mages, and neither do the Conventions. All they have are ASSUMPTIONS.

                        I know for a fact that Mages cannot just turn Methuselah into a chair, because there was a case where a very Ancient Vampire went feral in India, and it took several vampires to first, kill te vamps protecting it to destroy an artificial storm/cloud cover, after which the Technocratic Union used Solar Beams to kill it. So killing it, would have been impossible without kindred help, and they could not just transform it.

                        So Infinite ghouling and embracing running into issues - maybe, maybe, after hundreds or thousands of years. Remember, Kindred tend to live that long. That actually doesn't make sense. Okay Werewolves will not like it, so much, if a major war breaks out, they won't like it either way. Doesn't change the fact the Kindred can Embrace, in theory an infinite amount of mortals. Period.

                        As for Kindred being an "Alpha" Species, I am not sure what that means. I would say Garou, or Wraiths are more that. But Kindred are worse - they are predatory, they are parasitic, they are like a virus, they can infiltrate, and disguise, and spread, and spread. Even 1 Kindred can infect an entire species, and that is all it takes. Like that creature from Alien or The Thing, where even 1 landing can spell the end of an entire world. Just one Kindred getting into the Mages organization - that is it, and the Mages cannot do the same, because Kindred have supernatural senses which will spot them instantly and make them lunch.

                        Also you say Mages have Immortality spells, so why did the Tremere founders kidnap a vampire and lose their magic, to gain immortality? You know the Tremere were originally Mages right, who sacrificed their magic for immortality?
                        Last edited by Verra; 10-31-2019, 09:04 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Also, I want to say the Burjah are always underestimated, and I think if fully unleashed they are THE single most powerful element of the World of Darkness. Remember, the Garou are physically stronger and faster, but when they change, mental and social traits turn near zero, and they cannot create more. The Brujah are super-fast, super-strong, and unlike Garou can use weapons, technology, tactics and strategy. Mental and social traits remain. And Brujah can create more Brujah, If need be, they can spread like Locusts, throughout the world, making more Brujah, with more weapons, more armor, more numbers, more tacticians and strategists. And if they really want to - I say, there is no stopping them from any force in the World of Darkness. Not if they are willing to Embrace or Ghoul an Infinite Amount. They are like Army Ants in the Bazillion Jungle - once fully unleashed, even an Act of God can't stop them.

                          Literally, if need be, MILLIONS or BILLIONS of Brujah, super-fast, super-strong, social and intelligent, could spread across the globe. And there is no stopping that by any means. Even the Garou united could not stop that cause the Brujah would be smarter and have weapons.

                          Say the Brujah go crazy and just increase exponentially, like Zombies, but faster, stronger and smarter. If there are even 1 million or 10 million, which they can in theory make - what can anyone else do? Even the Garou, Mages, other Kindred, Wraiths. Mummies, Demons, etc, COMBINED would fall to stop them. Because they would have all their Kindred powers, PLUS superior numbers, PLUS Kind weapons and tech. Even the Zombie plague would fail - cause Brujah are that PLUS weapons, and tech, and organization, and superior-speed, strength and intelligence. This is assuming no beneficial mutations occurred, which likely would with such numbers. There would be no stopping that. And I do not play Brujah, I just recognize that the main thing holding them back is themselves.

                          In Absolute Theory, Brujah, could become BILLIONS in MONTHS, with guns, and swords and military vehicles along with numbers. And then what?
                          Last edited by Verra; 10-31-2019, 09:47 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Verra View Post
                            Also certain things Mages will have trouble countering - along with Social Disciplines (you are assuming Disciplines work like magic and can be countered like magic, which may not be the case) such as Shadow-Magic and Obfuscate.
                            Depends on the crossover-rules used. And then we get into the madness that is trying to make different OWoD gamelines work together. But yes, they can counter those. Just like Vampires with Thaumathurgy can counter kinds of True Magick - again, depending on rules used. Thematically, True Magick could counter anything, because True Magick can do anything. It just depends on the Mage(s) in question.

                            Originally posted by Verra View Post
                            And Lasambra, able to infiltrate them at will
                            Citation needed.
                            ....can eat them alive. Brujah can physically annihilate them and tear them apart - which you don't seem to appreciate.
                            You really need to start reading more Mage source material. Seriously. Because you are coming into this from a very, very, very one-sided perspective that makes it glaringly obvious you haven't. Well, as the main question of this thread shows.

                            Originally posted by Verra View Post
                            Kindred can use Nukes too. <...> They still, by and large, dominate most major human organizations. The Church, the Corporations, the Military. These can be used in a war.
                            In a Vampire game, yes. in a Mage game, no. the Corporations (And military) are *heavily* dominated by the Syndicate, while the NWO has its fingers deep in the mortal Intelligence Agency spiel. They literally invented both, Corporations and three-letter-agencies. Again, this is why OWoD Crossovers are highly subjective and highly depend on what gameline you run. Discussions like this always boil down to that.

                            Just one Kindred getting into the Mages organization - that is it, and the Mages cannot do the same, because Kindred have supernatural senses which will spot them instantly and make them lunch.
                            The very first abilities pretty much every Mage literally learns are supernatural senses. Every single one. Several Magick Spheres, on their most base level, can detect a vampire. In combination with Correspondence, in a radius. If you want to infiltrate Mages, you use Ghouls, not Kindred. Much harder to detect. Also you saying that Mages cannot infiltrate Vampire groups is - again - pure assumption.

                            Also you say Mages have Immortality spells, so why did the Tremere founders kidnap a vampire and lose their magic, to gain immortality? You know the Tremere were originally Mages right, who sacrificed their magic for immortality?
                            That wasn't even their plan. The whole 'Let's become vampires' was a complete accident on their part. And House Tremere overreacted on the whole spiel in the first place, because the Scourge was becoming a thing, and their old ways of immortality started to malfunction. They dun' goofed. The rest is history.


                            Originally posted by Verra View Post
                            Also, I want to say the Burjah are always underestimated, and I think if fully unleashed they are THE single most powerful element of the World of Darkness. <more stuff about Brujahs taking over the world just like that.>
                            This is the most tunnel-vision, single-perspective white-room scenario I have ever read on this forum. And that's saying something given the white-room wars we've had in some threads here.
                            Last edited by Ambrosia; 11-01-2019, 12:55 AM.


                            cWoD Dice Probability Chart ||| cWoD Dice Statistics Calculator ||| cWoD Alternative Armor System
                            cWoD Alternative Damage Roll System ||| My explanation of cWoD Damage Levels ||| 'Interesting' Strength Attribute Stuff
                            EXPLOSIVE cWoD STUFF! ||| How Technocrats don't think they are Mages

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Verra View Post
                              Also, I want to say the Burjah are always underestimated, and I think if fully unleashed they are THE single most powerful element of the World of Darkness. Remember, the Garou are physically stronger and faster, but when they change, mental and social traits turn near zero, and they cannot create more. The Brujah are super-fast, super-strong, and unlike Garou can use weapons, technology, tactics and strategy. Mental and social traits remain. And Brujah can create more Brujah, If need be, they can spread like Locusts, throughout the world, making more Brujah, with more weapons, more armor, more numbers, more tacticians and strategists. And if they really want to - I say, there is no stopping them from any force in the World of Darkness. Not if they are willing to Embrace or Ghoul an Infinite Amount. They are like Army Ants in the Bazillion Jungle - once fully unleashed, even an Act of God can't stop them.

                              Literally, if need be, MILLIONS or BILLIONS of Brujah, super-fast, super-strong, social and intelligent, could spread across the globe. And there is no stopping that by any means. Even the Garou united could not stop that cause the Brujah would be smarter and have weapons.

                              Say the Brujah go crazy and just increase exponentially, like Zombies, but faster, stronger and smarter. If there are even 1 million or 10 million, which they can in theory make - what can anyone else do? Even the Garou, Mages, other Kindred, Wraiths. Mummies, Demons, etc, COMBINED would fall to stop them. Because they would have all their Kindred powers, PLUS superior numbers, PLUS Kind weapons and tech. Even the Zombie plague would fail - cause Brujah are that PLUS weapons, and tech, and organization, and superior-speed, strength and intelligence. This is assuming no beneficial mutations occurred, which likely would with such numbers. There would be no stopping that. And I do not play Brujah, I just recognize that the main thing holding them back is themselves.

                              In Absolute Theory, Brujah, could become BILLIONS in MONTHS, with guns, and swords and military vehicles along with numbers. And then what?
                              Let's start with the obvious, you haven't read the books you stated that in the opening so this is conjecture I'm guessing based on wiki reading and potential Pun-Pun builds. Garou lose social stats not intelligence in their other states. Why don't they use weapons in Chrinos? Most of the time no point, when they think there is they do.

                              To use my ST's thoughts on the subject:
                              Originally posted by Malroth
                              Maybe True Bruja with their lost unique clan discipline above rank 7 or so could be concidered a threat, but the rank and file cannon fodder? Throw one Salurbi into their city, doesn't even have to actively do anything, and all the Bruja are up in the pearly gates before they have time to complain.
                              And yes, Any vampire clan could become a "zombie" apocolapse if they allowed themselves to breed out of control like a bunch of Idiotic Sabbat, at least till they let the gen 12+s start embracing. Those numbers wouldn't mean jack diddily and squat vs any mid lv mage gaoru quei-jin or mummy. and I hope your world domination plan takes less than 24 hours before you need to feed all those fledglings

                              Hell a mass embracing that Vamps 90% of a city would probably be a power up for any entropy mage who no longer has to worry about Consentual Reality keeping his powers in check. Guess who doesn't count as sleepers anymore.
                              And even if his supposition was correct, The very advantage he cites would cause the collapse of his own argument. You've vamped 1,000,000 angry citizens and armed them, you have no control of their actions because they've still got most of their old personality intact, they're all hungry because vampires, their compassion and discipline aren't working correctly because vampires, and they know it's your fault they're doomed to an eternity of pain. now what

                              Either mundane weapons work on powerful things, in which case there's 1,000,000 heavily armed things that can kill you with reason to hate your guts forever. Or they do not work on powerful things in which case you've blown a medium countries budget on useless toys while making 1,000,000 things that want to steal your food.
                              Ambrosia I like you, you speak reasonably.
                              Last edited by nalak42; 11-01-2019, 12:33 AM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X