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Does the Technocracy know about the Kindred?

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  • #31
    One reason I wish all of the games had had their own antagonist books (let's call them Nightstalkers, Wolfsbane, Witchhunters, The Quick & The Dead, and Grim Fears, just for example) is so that the last chapter of each could cover "the supernatural" - all the stuff that doesn't fall under the line's usual umbrella. If Nightstalkers' other chapters cover the natural world (fire, sunlight, animals, etc.), the living (everything from meddling kids to the Inquisition), and the undead (vampires), the the last chapter would cover lupines, demons, ghosts, Men in Black, walking dead, and other weird stuff that vampires share as friend of a friend stories. "The MiBs aren't cops or even feds ... I'm not even sure they're human ... Carol said the one she tried to feed on, his blood tasted like dish soap ... But his gun, the bullets tore Frankie to pieces."


    What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
    Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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    • #32
      I could see the Technocracy being a covert ally of the SI the same way I could see the Celestial Chorus (and possibly the Order of Hermes at least where the Tremere are involved) and giving it some indirect aid, but I don't think I ever considered them the same thing. I always saw the SI as a fusion of various government agencies aware of vampires (the project Twilight stuff), the imbued, and the Society (who are an extension of the original inquisition, who as per Dark Ages stuff were a sort of 'imbued'...)

      But you can see lots of supernatural factions 'helping' the SI in various ways for their own interests, including other Vampires IMHO.

      Anyhow, knowledge would be part of that assistance, and I suspect the Technocracy (or other mages) would know quite a bit, but probably NOT most of it. I expect their knowledge would be broad but not necessarily deep (they capture alot of ancilla, some elders and interrogate them, decipher their records, etc. They could know something about the structure/nature of the sects and clans, something about major locales, something about Kindred History or possibly even copies of the Book of Nod. But they might not know anything in depth about what Methuselah or Antediluvians are capable of. Ravnos for example during the Week of Nightmares caused them to shit a brick and I expect encountering even more would have caused an even bigger freakout.)

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Mister_Dunpeal View Post
        Anyhow, knowledge would be part of that assistance, and I suspect the Technocracy (or other mages) would know quite a bit, but probably NOT most of it. I expect their knowledge would be broad but not necessarily deep (they capture alot of ancilla, some elders and interrogate them, decipher their records, etc.
        Speaking of this, I always find one splat totally has a bit limited interpretation of other splats’ powers. For example, many splats know powerful, centuries-old vampires(elders) do exist, but DON’T KNOW thousands-old, much more powerful ones(methuselahs). I suspect the Week of Nightmares is the FIRST time that most splats realized “WTF? Vampires can be THAT grrreat?!” or even didn’t think that’s a vampire but a true god or anything alike.

        *Maybe, just as many methuselahs and antediluvians has been trying to do, other splats may mistake them for true gods. Their age and power also make this accessible. For example, we fans all know Odin is a 4th gens gangrel, but Get of Fenrir or local Verbena may think he is a god.

        Well, I don’t know if they are counterfeiting these gods or counterfeiting themselves as gods, and in crossover this is always a standing dish(Gilgamesh, well... Is that gangrel or the one worshipped by Celestial Chrous the same?) If they are all powerful cainites, well, I also expect what will happen when other splats find the gods they worship all the time are...
        Last edited by Rock113; 11-18-2019, 12:41 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Rock113 View Post

          *Maybe, just as many methuselahs and antediluvians has been trying to do, other splats may mistake them for true gods. Their age and power also make this accessible. For example, we fans all know Odin is a 4th gens gangrel, but Get of Fenrir or local Verbena may think he is a god.
          No. There is a 4th Gen vampire who is the All Father. He is the enemy of the Get of Fenris. There is also an High Umbra odin. There's also an Odin who appears exactly he does in Thor movies in the Middle Umbra and a whole House of Fairies who played at being the Norse Gods. There's no "ONE SOURCE" for these things.


          Well, I don’t know if they are counterfeiting these gods or counterfeiting themselves as gods, and in crossover this is always a standing dish(Gilgamesh, well... Is that gangrel or the one worshipped by Celestial Chrous the same?) If they are all powerful cainites, well, I also expect what will happen when other splats find the gods they worship all the time are...
          Gilgamesh is the king of Heroes. the Last of the Solar Exalts in our world. Owner of all Treasures.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Lian View Post
            No. There is a 4th Gen vampire who is the All Father. He is the enemy of the Get of Fenris. There is also an High Umbra odin. There's also an Odin who appears exactly he does in Thor movies in the Middle Umbra and a whole House of Fairies who played at being the Norse Gods. There's no "ONE SOURCE" for these things.
            A reason why they gave up big crossover later.

            Baron Samedi is also this kind of guys.

            Originally posted by Lian View Post
            Gilgamesh is the king of Heroes. the Last of the Solar Exalts in our world. Owner of all Treasures.
            In CWoD, he is a redeemed vampire(WtA), a 4th gangrel(VtM), a perfect one(MtA).

            Exalted is CWoD’s prehistory, only at the very very beginning of development. I wonder why many people mention it.
            Last edited by Rock113; 11-19-2019, 10:11 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
              A reason why they gave up big crossover later.

              Baron Samedi is also this kind of guys.
              No, Baron Samedi actually SAYS he's not a Loa. And the idea that there is going to be "One source" for everything comes off as extremely simplistic.


              In CWoD, he is a redeemed vampire(WtA), a 4th gangrel(VtM), a perfect one(MtA).

              Exalted is CWoD’s prehistory, only at the very very beginning of development. I wonder why many people mention it.
              Gilgamesh is never claimed as a Vampire. You're confusing him with Enkidu.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Lian View Post
                Gilgamesh is never claimed as a Vampire. You're confusing him with Enkidu.
                https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Gilgamesh_(VTM)

                And, well, king of Heroes, owner of all treasures... Fate Stay Night? The first time I heard these things is in this game, at least to me.

                *To be serious, TYPE-MOON drew a lot from MtA(They took in essence rather than skin, I mean, if you take a look at their settings you’ll find many conceptions are very similar), not VtM. This is a common sense.
                Last edited by Rock113; 11-19-2019, 10:27 AM.

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                • #38
                  Keep in mind that the distinction between someone worshipped as a god, and a god, is largely splitting hairs. I would consider the claim to divinity by a vampire who calls himself Odin and is worshipped for controlling the weather to be at least as valid as any other.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                    Keep in mind that the distinction between someone worshipped as a god, and a god, is largely splitting hairs. I would consider the claim to divinity by a vampire who calls himself Odin and is worshipped for controlling the weather to be at least as valid as any other.

                    No, because that's not the argument being made? The question isn't whether a 4th generation Vampire classifies as a "god" or not. The argument is that every person in the WOD who worships odin worships a vampire. Which is patently not the case? If for example Verbena Odin worshiper's avatar manifests as Odin he clearly does not in any fashion worship the Vampire.

                    Who is the first/real/etc Odin doesn't really matter here so much as there are multiple things that are coming up wearing a perfectly valid Odin hat.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Lian View Post
                      No, because that's not the argument being made?
                      Did I say it was? No.

                      Originally posted by Lian View Post
                      The argument is that every person in the WOD who worships odin worships a vampire.
                      I didn't say anything for or against said argument.

                      Please refrain from jumping down my throat about it.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
                        Keep in mind that the distinction between someone worshipped as a god, and a god, is largely splitting hairs. I would consider the claim to divinity by a vampire who calls himself Odin and is worshipped for controlling the weather to be at least as valid as any other.
                        My original post:
                        Well, I don’t know if they are counterfeiting these gods or counterfeiting themselves as gods.

                        Maybe I didn't say very well, I mean, two variations:

                        1. Vampire is worshipped as a god. For example, Mictlantecuhtli, Mithras.
                        2. Vampire counterfeited himself as a god. Maybe this confused you. I mean, he disguised himself as THAT god, under THAT god's name, but in fact he had NOTHING to do with the god. For example, some resource said Shaitan just disguise that Aztec god called Huitzilopochtli.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                          Maybe I didn't say very well, I mean, two variations:

                          1. Vampire is worshipped as a god. For example, Mictlantecuhtli, Mithras.
                          2. Vampire counterfeited himself as a god. Maybe this confused you. I mean, he disguised himself as THAT god, under THAT god's name, but in fact he had NOTHING to do with the god. For example, some resource said Shaitan just disguise that Aztec god called Huitzilopochtli.
                          I don’t know why you think I’m confused.

                          A vampire who steals the name of a god still meets all the necessary criteria for godhood himself - he’s a being or spirit, and is worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes. Divinity is not the high bar some make it out to be.

                          (Also, is it ever made explicit that this vampire who calls himself Odin is not Grímnir? Because in the absence of an omniscient narrator telling us who the “real” Bölverkr is, his claim is equally valid as the other supernaturals saying they’re the Allfather.)
                          Last edited by TheCountAlucard; 11-20-2019, 08:38 PM.

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                          • #43
                            The 4th generation Gangrel called The All-High doesn’t claim to be the god Odin, but rather a high priest of Odin.

                            Verra As for the OP, I’ve no idea what you were really going for with your question and responses.
                            Last edited by Archasimos; 12-09-2019, 09:08 PM.


                            I’m a writer. A storyteller. They’re my passions. They’re what I do. The stories I tell, they are my mythologies. Like the Norse tales of Odin, Thor, and Loki, or the Celtic fables of Lugh or Cú Chulainn, I want them to be the kind that people retell. They are the legacies I wish to leave behind.

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