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The strangest aspect of oWoD

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  • The strangest aspect of oWoD

    Is the uniformity of the Abrahamic outlook in Vampire: The Masquerade and Demon: The Fallen.

    It doesn't make sense for Caine to be cursed to be the first murderer when his conception was based on the Book of Genesis, which was well after the advent of other cultures, the earth itself, and other mythos of different religions. The "god(s)" of WoD since its based on our own world, would've cursed someone else waaay before Caine was even born. Most-likely an African tribesman would get the curse.. The fact that Caine is the first of the Kindred is strange to me in that regard since Adam and Eve definitely weren't the first humans, so how could Caine even be born to be the first Vampire?

    Another one is Demon: The Fallen. How could the Demons all be so Abrahamic centric? It doesn't make sense since Demons have been apart many other religions waaay before the Abrahamic fold of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. How could Demon: The Fallen be so centric on something that was nascent compared to other religions? What about the Greek Gods? What about The Norse Gods? The North African pre-islamic beliefs? The sub-saharan spiritual folklore and pantheons? Asia? Why does The Fallen make it seem like Christianity is the forefront?

    VTM and DTF should've been more like the other splats where it is ambiguous or defined in another way that can satisfy all the questions. The one that does it perfectly is Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Mage: The Ascension, and to a lesser extent Wraith: The Oblivion.

    Werewolf explains the Weaver, Wlyd, and Wyrm perfectly in its Celestine purpose in creation and also Gaia aswell. Mage shares many similarities with Werewolf, with the whole purpose of the game is reality is something shaped by belief of humanity and the people who have awakened who can bend it to their will, and Wraith is simply the spiritual dead trying to adapt or be fed to maws Oblivion. They don't shoehorn the religions merely shaped by the mortals, but things that are cosmic and beyond the understanding of humanity.
    Last edited by Shakanaka; 11-04-2019, 02:55 AM.

    V5 is the Gehenna everyone was raving about

  • #2
    In the lore, it is said that Lucifer brought the Story about Fallen (and their War) to people in the form of the legend of God (this is mentioned somewhere among the Baals and the Fallen).
    I don’t know why he decided to tell them about God and why he became "evil" there. One way or another, his teachings were distorted by centuries of retelling and lying.
    Cain was the first killer, he committed a forbidden act (something that the One did not create), after which the Angels started a completely different war. They began to really kill each other.

    Now a little about Africa and people.
    Cain was the first damned because HE WAS THE FIRST DAMNED BY GOD.
    His Parents were expelled (not cursed) from Paradise.

    There are a few important things to understand.
    1) Death was unknown to them.
    2) They multiplied.
    3) During the expulsion of Cain, the children of his brother scattered across the Earth.
    4) During this time, they fell victim to the New Curse of God, the Curse of Death. They started to die.
    Previously, they were terminated by the Angels of Death.

    After the outbreak of the War (Luciferm against God), many did not have time to take the souls of people. They wandered and disappeared ... but no one knew what happened to them, where did they go?
    Later, the Angels created the Underworld. The storms were a defense system, but as we see ... the underworld has become a new torture for Demons and Ghosts.

    5) Many people just forgot about that war. They forgot about the Angels and their sacrifice. But they began to bow to new gods, powerful spirits or idols (under whose mask many creatures were hiding).
    It can be assumed that there were few people and they settled on different territories. Later, they have changed (by race).

    A bit about African vampires.
    The Lore clearly states that they appeared after wandering in those places of the Antediluvians or their children.

    Many of them simply do not know about their ancestors, some of them turned by pure chance.
    Others were turned by the Children of Antediluvians, but they died and no one could show the way to the Antediluvian. (do they know de way?)

    I remember the story of one bloodline of vampire turned by someone from the underworld.
    They thought it was a spirit, but it was Cappadocia (curses are similar ... and he was summoned from the world of the dead) ... As a result, Witch began to practice magic... They conceived a child. Curse forced them to eat blood only from the descendants of a witch-lover their African ancestor. Centuries later, they used their knowledge of necromancy to break free from these bonds, as the blood stopped saturating them ... and inbreeding damaged them too much.
    ================================================== ===========================================
    Now let's talk about the demons.

    You are mistaken in your thoughts.
    There were no “demons" in other beliefs. There were completely different names for "dark" spirits.
    But here is the problem, the "evil spirit" is not the Fallen Angel ...

    Each belief had its own terminology of "demons."
    Oni (鬼) in Japanese mythology / religion. they are also "demons." But the problem is that this is not Jin, this is not Lucifer ... this is Oni.

    Demon, this is a very inaccurate term because of the politics of the Church, and also because people call almost everything a "demon."
    It is simply a modern religious term for evil spirits.
    Demons in the lore never called themselves demons.
    They are Elohim.

    A demon is what they were called in Abrahamic beliefs. But they were called by someone.
    You should now be able to understand that the demon is an inaccurate term that is now more commonly used as the name for "evil" spirits.

    You did the right thing by mentioning the beliefs of the Greeks and Norse mythology.
    There are no "demons" in them, except for the Greeks (but there are no demons in the pantheon).
    Caelum was a prolific god, he generated many creatures ... and often they were monsters ... but they were not called demons.
    Even the Titans were not "demons."

    Now about the deities.
    In many places, people worshiped spirits.
    In the World of Darkness, after God and the Angels left the world, they were forgotten. People began to bow to other entities. Spirits, powerful beasts from Umbra ... basically.
    Some worshiped magicians or Cainites.

    Particular attention should be paid to the Aztecs and Chinese mythology.
    The first were founded by the Cainites, at least they came to the very beginning of the origin of that religion.

    The second is a lot of divine beings, I do not understand much in Chinese myths.
    I can only assume that this is a combination of many spirits and Yin-Yang's Gods... in the world of darkness.

    ================================================== ================================================== ==

    I am still not sure how the belief in the Three Super-Spirits can be related to the self-deception of the Mages.
    The triad can quite easily fit into the picture of the world.
    Moreover, the Lizardmen had their civilization before humans ... and something destroyed them.
    Maybe it was their fault, maybe God removed them to expel Adam and Eve to the desert land. (What did you expect? Love and care from God?)

    White spots in the plot can adversely affect the plot, especially if there is a lot of it.
    It is good that there is clarity in the origin of various creatures. Otherwise, why do we need a game where the "demon" "maybe ... from this mythology ... or maybe not ..."
    It looks pathetic. It is as if a whole game line has been created and none of the creators knows what they create.
    We already have a book about infernalism, which clearly shows that the demons are different ... and it is not clear who is who.
    But the book of the Fallen makes it clear to us that they are not "demons", they are FALLENS. This entire game line was created about the Fallen.
    ================================================== ================================================== ====

    Interesting fact: werewolf books explicitly say that they were NOT all born / created from Geia.
    There is even an opinion that the First Werewolves were born from Lilith's daughter - Ennoia.
    Some of them were born from the Triad or the Triad Spirits.

    ================================================== ================================================== =====
    You lack some important knowledge about Ghosts.

    There were hints of the existence of Eve in the Underworld.
    Moreover, the book of the Fallen says that they (Fallen) created that (underworld) world as a gift and refuge.
    And the fact that they are Souls of dead people does not make them outside the understanding of people. (Or are you talking about magicians / triad?)
    ================================================== ================================================== ======
    I had the opinion that you are from that group of people who do not worship the Abrahamic god, but at the same time, the existence of the Triad or something like Celestial Bureaucracy is not similar to your religion (or you are offended by the fact that your religion in the World of Darkness has less power. Maybe you just want that your God take the place of the One.).
    But I think this is not true.

    One way or another, I personally have not seen insults or derogations of other beliefs.


    • #3
      Originally posted by Alphari View Post

      Interesting fact: werewolf books explicitly say that they were NOT all born / created from Geia.
      There is even an opinion that the First Werewolves were born from Lilith's daughter - Ennoia.
      Some of them were born from the Triad or the Triad Spirits.
      None of the Changers are born directly from the Triat; the Ananasi come courtesy of Ananasa, who was in the Weaver's court but is not actually the Weaver. Everyone else is pretty much on board with mainline Werewolf lore, and not one W:tA book drags Vampire lore into it, much less name Ennoia or Lilith. In fact, the Revised Storyteller's Handbook casts some serious shade on equating Gaia to Lilith, with the reply of "Not everything needs to be shackled to Vampire mythology, you know".


      • #4
        Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
        Everyone else is pretty much on board with mainline Werewolf lore, and not one W:tA book drags Vampire lore into it, much less name Ennoia or Lilith. In fact, the Revised Storyteller's Handbook casts some serious shade on equating Gaia to Lilith, with the reply of "Not everything needs to be shackled to Vampire mythology, you know".
        For a werewolf to acknowledge kinship with a vampire = become a servant of a wyrm.
        PS: The triad did not directly give birth to werewolves, although the wyrm often allows them to be reborn into his servants.

        Anyway, I'm not saying that everything comes from the Vampire Lore.
        However, Lilith was indeed somehow connected with the creation of monsters. And her child gave birth to a clan closely associated with the Beast and the change of being.


        • #5
          D:TF still doesn't make sense. How come it has no connection to the Triat at all, when practically almost everything in the WoD is all a semblance of the Weaver, the Wlyd, and Wyrm? D:TF smashes the lore of Mage and Werewolf if you think about it. In each of the books (Weaver, Wyrm, and Wlyd) Elohim aren't mentioned at all. Before the creation of the DTF splat, Demons were High Umbric spirits. D:TF also glosses over the Demons native to the Thousand Hells in service of the Yama Kings too. How come the Elohim in WoD never mention the Wyld since their beings of creation? DTF doesn't specify who was even first- The Triat or this sudden "God" figure? Its not that I'm offended by the Abrahamicism since I'm agnostic, I just find it so linear. oWoD should've went the Scion route in some way.

          Overall my biggest gripe with D:TF is that it was attempted to be shown off as the great "explainer" of the WoD universe, but I felt it failed miserably as I kept reading on the Core book of it. Not only does it take (even though loosely) the Book of Genesis as the framework for the conflicts that took place among the Fallen, Humans, and Angels, but it tried to shoehorn off the already established lore of the WoD universe itself like a strange self-insert.

          Vampire: The Masquerade gets leeway from this since I believe it was the first gameline of oWoD and Caine is more a myth than anything else, or something else entirely by who you ask. Also the Lady of Fate is only suggested to be "Eve".
          Last edited by Shakanaka; 11-04-2019, 02:12 PM.

          V5 is the Gehenna everyone was raving about


          • #6
            Caine is not myth. Embrace gives birth to a descendant, but this descendant is weaker. There is also Gehenna.

            The fact that mages have 3 types of resonance and 4 Essences does not make them (Mage and Shifters) close.
            The fact that your mini-world is destroyed by the fact that the Fallens exist and their Lore does not consist in worshiping of 3 pillars does not make it bad, mistaken or stupid.
            There are no Elohim in the books of your triad because they were not created by them.
            The Triad may be a great power, but it is not the Creator. It was the One who created people, the Earth, the Sun and other things... this is in the book of the Fallen.
            Powers of the Fallen is Lores, Knowledge of HOW this world works. They Know. Mages dont know. Shifters dont know.

            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
            How come the Elohim in WoD never mention the Wyld since their beings of creation?
            The triad existed with them or a little after them.

            If my memory serves me, in the books of the Fallen there is Lore of Chaos. So, it was said there that the Demons DO NOT REMEMBER some worlds/dimensions, after their release they saw other worlds that they did not create. They were created after them. The book of the Fallen says directly that THEY (THE FALLENS) do not understand where the werewolves came from.
            They only assume that a certain divine essence give them power (which is close to the werewolf's lore)

            Why are they not familiar with the kings of Yama?
            Yama King is a generic term employed by the Kuei-jin referring to various malignant spirit beings predating the coming of the Jade Emperor.
            As far as I remember, they divide the world into ages. Ages in the Cycle.
            In the first era, CHI was not divided. There are some references to Gaia, but also to the One.
            The Magical Trinity was created in the second age. A little later, in the second era, the first Katayans appeared, the Kings of Yama, and Weaver began to weave everything and everyone.
            In the third era, some creatures (Shen) helped the Emperor (who appears to be One) in the battle again Yama kings.
            Age #4. The shifters began to kill each other (presumably Gaaru's fault). The first (in China) demon hunters appeared.
            5 Age. We are here. Hail Technocratic Union, Hail Pentex.
            6 Age. Red Stars, God come to kill US. Ghost must die, Fairy will DIE... and etc.

            As we see, there are no contradictions in the existence of the Triad and the One.
            One can be a step higher than them. But this does not cancel the existing power of the Triad.
            For many, the story (life, existence ...) began with the Triad, not the One (which created the foundation of the existence).

            Overall my biggest gripe with D:TF
            .... is an inability to collect the whole plot, as well as the idea that if it is said somewhere that the World does not consist of their Triad, this is the end. Interestingly, how does your Chorus exist in a world where there is no One?
            Also, using the Triad, you cancel the first game's lore where GOD cursed Cain.
            The triad says that it is Wyrm.
            for some reason magicians try to prove that this is a paradox.
            But mages try to bring everything under their system from which it turns out that they are blind, like dogs screaming on every stone "WYYYYRMMMm!!!!"

            You just need to understand that the Triad could exist and begin work after God leaves the world. This does not negate the fact that 2/3 of them are crazy.

            Moreover, in the world of darkness no one has seen the Triad.
            Almost, only a few Hindu vampires, dogs, and the highest Heads of Wyrm's hydra.
            Last edited by Alphari; 11-04-2019, 06:12 PM.


            • #7
              It seems to me that you favor fiction which portrays the Cosmos as something beyond human comprehension with "Gods" to whom Humanity is entirely irrelevant.
              Which is fine. Hey, some of the best writers of all time have written about exactly that type of cosmic horror. But if that is the fiction that you enjoy, obviously Demon won't appeal to you.

              If you try to fit different splats together, you'll always need to headcanon a way for them to all work simultaneously because, ultimately, each supernatural race can only perceive its fellow supernaturals through the prism of their own beliefs. If you ask a werewolf what vampires are, he'll tell you they're some creation of the Wyrm. If you ask a Changeling the same question, he'll tell you that they are some form of Redcap.

              I could give you a way for vampires to be the childer of Caine who was cursed by God while still keeping the Garou as the soldiers of Gaia but that would still just be headcanon and as valid or as worthless as any other.


              • #8
                D:TF still doesn't explain anything coherent with the other Celestine forces at play in WoD. How come the Demons never encountered the Weaver as both wanted to help humanity? How come the two aspects of the triat going insane are never addressed at all by the Elohim? How come they didn't react to it? Also why do you assume that the Triat wasn't first? The D:TF still don't know who the Yama Kings are when the August Personage of Jade (The "asian" side of "God" in WoD) specifically had them as Wardens of the Underworld? How come Elohim were cast into the Abyss, but the Yama Kings were left unscathed? Also if the August Personage of Jade (Asian portion of god) and "God" (The White/Middle-Eastern portion of god) made the Elohim and Ten Thousand Heroes (Kuei-Jin) at roughly the same point- how come they don't ever interact pre-sundering? In all of this, where is even the so-called "African" portion of god?

                Also the Triat is very much seeable and you can actually meet them in W:TA. Hell if you play as an Umbric spirit yourself in a chronicle you can directly meet them too. D:TF also barely mentions the other splats when the entire thing it looks to be somesort of "shape'em up" to the lore of creation in oWoD. Where are the Fera (Shape-Changers of Gaia), Mages, and even Fae? Most of the D:TF conflict takes place pre-Sundering, so those supernaturals should've been the most potent right? How come those three didn't become embroiled in the rebellion of the rebel Elohim versus God?

                The most glaring thing about D:TF is that they never got in conflict with the Weaver due to conflict of interests? Also since the Elohim want to create things, how come they never had to fight the Wyrm that wants to continously destroy everything? Out of the entire universe, it seems the only canon instance of Demons having a palpable impact on the other supernaturals on come in the form of Kupala the Earthbound to aid the Tzimisce from unsealing it from the Lupine control. D:TF was the second to last game to "close" up oWoD I suppose due to the ol' 1999 is the end of the beginning of the end of the world trope (In our world and much more real in the WoD) so they went full stop with the whole Biblical Apocalypse thing just by making it. (which has honestly been a trope with the majority of oWoD)

                When I initially began reading D:TF, I thought it was supposed to explain all the supernaturals with their line in creation. If Elohim are suppose to be the creators in "God's" (The Abrahamic variant) stead, how come they don't remember making the Triat if they were supposedly first? They also say the Elohim operated in multiple planes of existence at once, but how come they don't know any of the Umbras beside the Low Umbra? How come they don't remember making the Supernaturals like Mages or the Fae?
                Last edited by Shakanaka; 11-05-2019, 08:45 AM.

                V5 is the Gehenna everyone was raving about


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Alphari View Post

                  For a werewolf to acknowledge kinship with a vampire = become a servant of a wyrm.
                  PS: The triad did not directly give birth to werewolves, although the wyrm often allows them to be reborn into his servants.

                  Anyway, I'm not saying that everything comes from the Vampire Lore.
                  You might say that, but this next part?

                  However, Lilith was indeed somehow connected with the creation of monsters. And her child gave birth to a clan closely associated with the Beast and the change of being.

                  It means that you totally are saying that everything came from Vampire's mythology.


                  • #10
                    The games all have their own cosmologies that are each primary in their own game line. One of the better descriptions of Vampire's cosmology I remember from back in the day was "Dark Christian"; Which is to say that G-d exists and He tends to be a rather grim and judgmental G-d, but that the possibility for mercy and redemption, while slim, do exist. As Milton said, "Long is the way and hard, that out of Hell leads up to light." Werewolf, in contrast, is more "Dark Animism", a world were all things have a spiritual reflection, and they are not necessarily friendly or kind. Mage is essentially Dark Gnosticism, Changleling Dark Fantastic, and Wraith somewhere between Dark Christian and Cosmic Horror, depending on how you approach things.

                    What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                    Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)


                    • #11
                      Well the forum has eaten my long post twice so I'm gonna try again later tomorrow, but in the mean time I'm gonna give the extremely truncated version:

                      The concepts of the triat are found within every gameline of WoD under a variety of names and aliases and the cosmology of DtF adds in layers of reality which creates a paradoxically complimetary rather then antagonistic view of contrasting accounts of the universe's creation.

                      The universe is built ultimately as Creation which is the barrier between Everything & Nothing. Everything is God, The One, The Singularity. Nothing is Grand Maw, Oblivion, and Darkness. The two of them cannot touch each other without being corrupted and so something of both parts needed to be built for both of them to express themselves. This was Creation.

                      The First House of the Elohim was given God's Divine Plan as inspiration to construct Creation. Houses 2-6 designed and set into place the patterns that formed Creation. The Seventh House were the Angels of Death who removed things from Creation so as to make room for new things and to support the existence of what is there already.

                      The Wyld of the Triat, the mage principle of Dynamism, and the First House of Elohim all expressed pure energy to manifest Creation. The Weaver of the Triat, the mage principle of Stasis, and the Second through Sixth Houses of Elohim all solidified that energy and gave it constant form, shape, and name. The Wyrm of the Triat, the mage principle of Entropy, the Seventh House of Elohim deconstructed all things within Creation to make room for more and repurpose their energy to continue other things and create more new things.

                      The forces that define the World of Darkness metaplot and cosmology are all the same, simply seen from alternative perspectives, each of which offers greater insight into the whole picture which is nominally larger then fallen human comprehension.


                      • #12
                        Even with all the D:TF is still very cool though with amazing roleplay mechanics to draw from. It's just that that the lore of the Elohim while detailed, still left me wanting more. Unlike the other Corebooks in D:TF where they give a brief synopsis of what they think of the other supernaturals, D:TF never had that for the Elohim. I wanted to know whether of not the Fera considered the Elohim as Wrym taint, how the Mages would want to know a much of creation lore from the Elohim, how the Baali would react to actual re-manifeststion of Demons in particular mortals, and how even Fae would react. I know many books were made with crossovers at the back of mind, but D:TF reading on doesn't even give us a thing to draw upon except for fighting the influence of other Demons, training your Lores while shirking "mortal" duties of the Elohim's new life, or seeking an enchanted item from the time of the great war.

                        Also how come the Elohim barely make any contact with Caine beside being effected by his first murder to finally be able to kill members of the Host? I would assume they would've had some part in the formation of Enoch. What about the time when the Baali antediluvian used the Elohim or "Demons" to assault Enoch? How come they never mention that brief war?
                        Last edited by Shakanaka; 11-05-2019, 08:43 AM.

                        V5 is the Gehenna everyone was raving about


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                          It means that you totally are saying that everything came from Vampire's mythology.
                          She is called the mother of monsters, she gave birth to one of the antediluvian. She is one of the first Verbena.
                          I think you ignore the connection between her and the demons (as well as the mages)?

                          Or maybe you are not able to understand the fact that I wrote that she is called the mother of monsters and somehow she is connected with MONSTERS? I just wrote that there is a connection with monsters.


                          • #14
                            Someone who’s been playing a lot longer than I have told me that in her game, demons were created by a Hebrew god named El (the Hebrew word for god) who was one of many gods. The people in the Garden of Eden weren’t really the first people in the world, and Caine wasn’t really the first murderer. He just killed a guy (his brother) who was El’s favorite and that’s why he was cursed.

                            “The Bonnie Prince is a clever, slippery snake with enough charm to convince good men (and women) that he’s God’s Chosen One. If we don’t stop him from raising this rebellion, we’re all going to be staring down into the abyss at Culloden Moor.”


                            • #15
                              How can Lilith be the progenitor of Ennoia supposedly when all Kindred are apparently descended from Caine? (Which definitely isn't the case for all Vampires in WoD, but Ennoia is an Antediluvian, which means she's 3rd Generation)

                              Also that couldn't possibly be the case since chronologically Lilith was the first wife of Adam supposedly, but she was cast out for defying him and also supposedly bore Ennoia from the sexual assault that took place due to Adam. That would mean Ennoia would've been the first Vampire, not Caine, but somehow that isn't the case- which would render Lilith giving birth to Ennoia not true at all.

                              Another funny thing about D:TF and V:TM is supposedly Lilith had a relationship with Lucifer and bore sons from the brief union, but none of that is never touched upon in D:TF at all. Also D:TF retcons Liliths supposed role that took form of a serpent that deceived Eve too. Lilith effectively has little to no connection with "Demons" (Elohim) as D:TF doesn't even mention her at all. Actually now that I think about it, how come the Elohim aren't even aware of who Lilith is? How come Lucifer never speaks of her?

                              Besides the stretch of Ennoia being borne from Lilith (which most likely isn't the case), Lilith had other offspring with "Jehovah" (apparently) and Lucifer (apparently). They aren't even abstracted on at all or looked into after that. The only moniker Lilith has is the "Dark Mother", but nowhere is she known as the "Mother of Monsters".. This is the main problem with V:TM and D:TF compared to the other splats- it tries to shoehorn Abrahamic notions that largely conflict with the other aspects of WoD making it not make sense. Ironically the Metaphysic Trinity/Triat make more sense. D:TF should've expanded upon Triat portion of WoD, not coming up with its own new fluff.

                              Like I said before, V:TM could be forgiven since many Vampires have different theories on who Caine actually is and is mostly slaunched toward the views of Western Elders and what they think, which is disseminated upon the lower pyramids of Vampiric society. Vampires in different regions have their own lore though. D:TF though drives in the mythos of only V:TM while completely ignoring Mage: The Ascension, Werewolf: The Apocalypse.

                              V5 is the Gehenna everyone was raving about