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  • #16
    *
    Originally posted by Alphari View Post
    She is called the mother of monsters, she gave birth to one of the antediluvian. She is one of the first Verbena.
    I think you ignore the connection between her and the demons (as well as the mages)?

    Or maybe you are not able to understand the fact that I wrote that she is called the mother of monsters and somehow she is connected with MONSTERS? I just wrote that there is a connection with monsters.

    And ALL of that it's pure Vampire Mytology. Outside Vampire (and, to some extent, Mage) Lilith has 0 relevance.

    Unless you think "vampire lore about the WoD it's right" to begin with, you can't possibly think Garou come from Lilith because that's only suggested in Vampire, the only splat that treats her as really important or even real (other than some of those, as you say, "self-deluded" mages) - and that shows bias for Vampire lore over the rest of the WoD Lore.

    Now, to have bias it's understandable. WoD was never consistent between gamelines, so to create a crossover cosmology one does need to cut some parts and ignore others.

    Like you do when you deny the Triad/Gaia the creation of the universe in favor of The One. Or when you call the Lore of Mage to be "self delusion", which doesn't only imply that the books were written from the perspective of mages, which it's already wrong because a lot of what's written it's the "voice of the authors"/"word of god" (as prof: Most mages don't believe in the Purple Paradigm, yet it's the core of Mage cosmology). It also implies that the perspective of mages it's wrong

    But the thing is, when you do that you're just making a headcanon. Just like you say mages live "self deluded", I can disregard the Lore of the others too:

    *Demons are deluded about the nature of the universe and the history of WoD: They themselves say that they barely recognize creation, the very Core says that their memory WAS affected by Hell (that's why you need a background to remember stuff). Eartbound book declares that the worship they need to survive twisted their minds, they're mad.

    *The Book of Nod was (IOC) written by Elder Vampires, and Elders are renown liars ¿why should we suddenly treat their word as the revealed truth?.

    ¿Why shouldn't I favor the recount of spirits (or any other cosmology) over that of those deluded and unreliable sources you mention?.

    Contradictions may seem to go away if you say that "they're unreliable narrators", but all that really does it's to cut a piece of WoD in favor of another in a way that's purely optional. Hence, headcanon. And I can like a good headcanon or game theory, but I do feel compelled to criticize those that present themselves as the one truth of the World of Darkness and if others don't like it or it contradicts what X book says, bad for them.
    Shakanaka :

    WoD isn't a religion, it's a Game. You're not expected to believe that what transpires in WoD it's plausible, you're expected to believe that the "in game reality" works like that.

    If I go somewhere to play a new game I don't know about, and the game it's called Demon, I would expect Cristianity. Demons are very much christian folklore. If I go to play a game, and the game it's called "Akuma", I would expect a game about oriental stuff and wouldn't feel offended if it ignroes that the Christian God created the universe.
    Vampire and Demon do assume Abrahamic myths because they're games strongly based on Christian stories.

    More so oWoD wasn't written in a consistent way as to create a consistent universe across the gamelines. Between most of the story being related by unreliable narrators and "word of god" contradicting itself, you have to pick what you want to use. Make a headcanon, like Alphari does but in a way you like it.

    ​​There's no hidden truth, no secret code to unravel the "real canon WoD that X Splat doesn't tell you about". There's only the Lore, and what you make of it

    So, yeah, in Demon God created the universe and only the Book Religions got it mostly right (by influence of Lucifer), the rest of religions are Earthbound cults or just wrong. That's the vanilla interpretation. If you want to use the fact that Demon memories are a bit unreliable to validate other religions or to play nice with other WoD cosmologies...by all means do so. It's not the "default" assumption of Demon, but if you care about that then I would advise to avoid crossover altogether.
    Last edited by Aleph; 11-05-2019, 09:34 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
      D:TF still doesn't explain anything coherent with the other Celestine forces at play in WoD. How come the Demons never encountered the Weaver as both wanted to help humanity? How come the two aspects of the triat going insane are never addressed at all by the Elohim? How come they didn't react to it??
      And that's where the headcanon I mentioned comes in. Here's a possibility:

      The Universe is built in such a manner that everything, from concepts to natural processes to objects, tend to create a spiritual reflection of themselves. After the Fallen were imprisoned in Hell, the three biggest concepts in existence, Creation, Stasis and Destruction eventually gave rise to their spiritual halves, the Triat. Since this happened while they were trapped, they don't recognize it.
      Gaia is the spiritual reflection of the planet Earth and, in order to protect Herself, she created the Changing Breeds.

      Or, another possibility:
      Since there are different layers of reality, in one layer the Angels created the Universe. In another, this task fell to the Triat. But now that we are reaching the End Times, all realities have scrunched up together in preparation for a spiritual Big Crunch leading to demons coexisting with werewolves when they were never supposed to.


      Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
      How can Lilith be the progenitor of Ennoia supposedly when all Kindred are apparently descended from Caine?
      bore Ennoia from the sexual assault that took place due to Adam.
      You just said it yourself. If you want to stand by the theory that Lilith is the progenitor of Ennoia, then it's entirely possible that Lilith gave birth to Ennoia who would be Embraced later.

      Personally, I prefer to think that Ennoia was a Kinfolk to the Garou. Hence this whole legend about how Ennoia was the mother of the werewolf race. Because, well, she was. Just not the only one or the mother of all Garou.

      Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
      That would mean Ennoia would've been the first Vampire, not Caine,
      Why would Ennoia being the daughter of Lilith make her the first vampire?

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      • #18
        Because of the chronological order in which Lilith was supposedly "banished" from Eden. If we take the (again most Abrahamic stance of V:TM) Lilith was the first /human/ to be sent to Earth. Even before Adam got to Eve according to the mythos of V:tM, he had second one. Ennoia must've been implied to have been born a Kindred since it must've taken centuries before Adam and Eve were finally banished to Earth. Lilith has some excuse since she is "implied" to be Mage so she couldn't used the Life Sphere to stay alive for so long, but Ennoia wouldn't live long by the time of banishment of Eve and Adam to earth.

        Ennoia being the offspring of Lilith is mostly hearsay and a mythos anyway.


        V5 is the Gehenna everyone was raving about

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        • #19
          Reread Demon. Adam and Eve, even after their immortality was revoked lived for centuries if not longer. The first humans were extremely long lived.
          Besides, I don't remember any indication that Adam was Ennoia's father. it could have been anyone.

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          • #20
            On mobile so I can't properly quote anything, it's simply beyond my kenning, but I'll try to offer responses to these questions to the best of my understanding and ability.

            •The perspective of others:
            -Well, the practical reason for this is that Demons are frankly very new on the block as far as the modern factions are concerned and the Elohim have been out of reach for millennia, though we can make some assumptions. High-Torment demons would likely ring out as Wyrm tainted to Changing Breeds, much like low humanity & path vampires. The baali have always served the Earthbound and various capacities and they'd probably view the rise of demons either as a great victory or great failure, depending on philosophy and circumstance. In general though, I think it's poorly covered because a major factor of DtF as it was released is that the fallen are new and you'll have to see for yourselves what the interactions with others look like.

            •Relationship with Caine
            -This is actually covered. Most Elohim were busy fighting the War in Heaven when Cain committed the First Murder and couldn't have shown up if they wanted to, but God did handpick four of his highest loyal Elohim and sent them to Caine. Michael, Raphael, & Uriel (iirc) offered Cain forgiveness if he bowed before God and asked for it over three days, but thrice Caine refused, and so was cursed with Sunlight, Fire, and to Eat only Ash and drink only Blood. This atop the Mark of Cain which was God's own curse which rent Caine from humanity and society and made him nigh-impossible to harm, so he would walk Creation alone forever, in eternal torment. The fourth Elohim was Gabriel so appeared to offer salvation to those who sought it in the form of Golconda and God's Forgiveness. So ultimately, the loyalists had their orders and the fallen couldn't revenge themselves on Caine, even if they wanted to.

            Also, as an aside, in one of the DtF novels there is a quick scene where a modern fallen crosses paths with a vampire on the street and genuinely mistakes them for Caine for a moment.

            •Lilith
            -Lore about Lilith is vague, but popular consensus says a few things: she was created in the same manner of Adam but refused to submit to him as God had decreed, Adam may or may not have raped her and she may or may not have birthed Ennoia from this rape. It's unclear and apocryphal, but certainly possible on one layer or another. God's curse declared her to never truly know love and that she would be the Mother of Monsters. She supposedly had an affair with Lucifer which may have led to the Nephilim or lesser demons, it's hard to say. She may have been a founder of the Verbena and practioner of the Old Wyck and was almost certainly an Awakened Mage. She also took in Caine for a time and taught him how to harness his dark arts and abilities, but when she truly loved him, he rejected her and departed her realm to wander amongst the land of Nod again. Given her magical capacities, she could easily have sustained her and her offspring's life to functional immortality and Ennoia may have become an antediluvian as well as Lilith's daughter. Perhaps this was by Lilith's request or perhaps (as is my headcanon) she is a Childe of The Crown from the Book of Nod, who I read as a Lilith worshipper. Lilith's role as the Mother of Monsters is shown in the way where she is the feminine caretaker that allowed Caine to realize his full potential and pass on his curse, even if the process was not one of traditional birthing, as well as Lilith's actual children by Jehovah, Lucifer, Adam, and/or Caine can be explained in many ways and it's implied that on certain levels of reality, Lilith may have been the first vampire but this was not the case after The Fall, though we see the potential in the belief of the changelings that vampires are lilin in nature.

            •Abrahamic Lore vs. The Triat
            -Again, I would argue that Demon's view of multi-layered reality is actually beneficial to the unification of the systems as presented in other gamelines such as Werewolf & Mage and are also seen reflected throughout every gameline including VtM & DtF. Again, I do not believe that the Abrahamic Lore of either is not consensual with Triat-esqe three cosmic forces lore, as paradoxically as it may seem.

            •Ennoia
            -Ennoia could hypothetically have been any wild women that interested a member of the second generation, was embraced, survived the deluge, and is now considered the antediluvian founder of the Gangrel clan. There's nothing wrong with preferring that account.

            However, we do have lore alternatives presented. Ennoia is rumored to be the child of Lilith's rape by Adam. Before The Fall and Original Sin, humanity was effectively immortal and as such Lilith & Ennoia could have survived plenty long enough for Cain & Abel to show up and things to get wild as hell (literally).

            Ennoia's connection to Lilith could provide several explanations for her eventual embrace, but ultimately if you agree that she is Lilith's child by Adam, there is no reason that Ennoia would not be human originally and later embraced by a member of the Second Generation. This may be where Lilith's epithet as 'The Mother of Monsters' arises from in the World of Darkness or perhaps it's simply an old piece of Jewish folklore that got stuck on later. Regardless, there is absolutely no reason why Ennoia could not have been born mortal and been embraced later on by a member of the second generation (who I am inclined to think of as The Crone, but that's pure speculation on my part). Honestly, better evidence that Lilith, at least in some version of reality was the progenitor Dark Mother of vampires is in the fables of the Fae, who refer to vampires as the Children of Lilith as a whole. (Although they also speculate that Redcaps and/or Slaugh may be related to vampires so, Changelings aren't always the best sources).
            Last edited by Gryffon15; 11-05-2019, 05:03 PM. Reason: *Ennoia specifically

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            • #21


              Originally posted by Alphari View Post
              .... is an inability to collect the whole plot, as well as the idea that if it is said somewhere that the World does not consist of their Triad, this is the end.
              No, it is a curiosity. Only the beginning.

              Interestingly, how does your Chorus exist in a world where there is no One?
              Also, using the Triad, you cancel the first game's lore where GOD cursed Cain.
              The triad says that it is Wyrm.
              Not quite. The creation of vampires recounted in The Silver Record notes a Bloody Man that had the Weaver spin webs about him to keep him from being destroyed. The Wyrm saw this, tried to devour the result in order to right the universe, but couldn't because of the Weaver's webs. The Webbed Man drinks some of the Wyrm's blood and get spit out as the Bloody Man, whose existence prompts Helios to smite him and drive him into the darkness. This is how Garou recount the creation of vampires - a danger ultimately from the Weaver that willingly drank of corruption. Mokole, incidentally, would probably be way less generous and sympathetic in their account.

              This is more or less irrelevant to Vampire and any given game of Vampire that anyone will play. It does it, and generally stays in its own lane, at least as far as the books go. Hence, there's nothing at all wrong in contradicting Vampire about any point in any later WoD game; it's part of that game's themes, and the game is stronger for having its own lane than trying to share the same bit of road with Vampire and flit about its margins.

              for some reason magicians try to prove that this is a paradox.
              But mages try to bring everything under their system from which it turns out that they are blind, like dogs screaming on every stone "WYYYYRMMMm!!!!"

              You just need to understand that the Triad could exist and begin work after God leaves the world. This does not negate the fact that 2/3 of them are crazy.
              The universe doesn't need a creator, to Garou or Fera figuring. It existed, and then got split and folded into its present, effectively mutilated, form. One becoming three becoming multitudes does kind of play well with Daoism, though.

              Moreover, in the world of darkness no one has seen the Triad.
              Almost, only a few Hindu vampires, dogs, and the highest Heads of Wyrm's hydra.
              You don't need to see the Triat; they're like different orders of the Force from Star Wars, a cosmic presence that permeates the universe and makes existence possible, however twisted it's become compared to what it used to be. The ones who get too close to the source and end up burned by it demonstrate the Three's palpable nature quite handedly.

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              • #22
                Thing is, there is no "universal" mythology for the World of Darkness. Each game has their own mythology and background. Sometimes there is overlap but a lot of the time there isn't. Making one the "true" history means trying to fit a bunch of square pegs into round holes. And trying to Frankenstein them all together is kind of like trying to attach Legos to Lincoln Logs - if you whittle enough away you might be able to get something functional, but it's going to take a lot of work and you're going to lose some stuff in the process.

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                • #23
                  Out of Universe: OWoD was started in a pre-internet time by predominantly 80s-90s era westerners, so having concepts they are more familiar with and fall in their comfort zone is not exactly shocking. The same way that despite the fact the Imperium of Mankind (from Warhammer 40K) has a religion that supposedly embraces all kinds of faiths (including non Judeo-Christian belief systems) the dominant imagery and such are... Judeo-Christian imagery.

                  Edit: Also remember that Demon came at the tail end of the oWoD run and like certain other systems did not have the longevity that Vampire, Werewolf, or Mage had to develop the plotline (or make revisions of it). That sort of thing is bound to be limiting (it was also quite true of Hunter I think, even though it had more time to develop than Demon did. I don't think we ever got a really good in-depth glimpse at how Imbued in non-American, non-Western areas would differ.)

                  In-Universe: Preconception, mythology (nobody has the whole picture), lost knowledge, etc. Sort of a Rashomon-like POV thing, and we're just getting one view of the larger picture (something that became more relevant over time, especially with later editions like V20 thrown in.) Is this a specific answer? Heck no, but it's going to be hard to provide one given how prone to debate some topics can be and differing levels of suspension of disbelief a player might have. For non crossover games the Demon narrative takes precedence (at least however the storyteller wants to run it, which does not necessarily mean using the Judeo-Christian themes present), whereas if you're doing crossover you get more into 'unreliable narrator' stuff cuz of myth and legend and all that, so whose view of what is right is always going to be muddied (not to mention that most systems views on crossover make it clear that at least some level of contradiction may be inevitable because of the differences between systems.)

                  In alot of ways the Fallen are unreliable narrators (they don't know where Vampires, etc. come from after all) because they've been gone a long time, may be insane/traumatized to boot, and the ones who are likely to know (like Lucifer) are still in hiding most of the time. To that I often add the fact that embodying themselves in a human being may cause their perceptions to be distorted/skewed by the thoughts/beliefs/prejudices of those they inhabit (and may also limit them in other ways because they're adopting a more 'mortal' guise) which can only further serve to muddy the waters (remember these were beings whose perceptions and ways of doing things transcended mortal understanding, nevermind things like 'time was mutable' - alot of stuff is likely to be lost in translation if you're having to filter down to a 'merely human' perspective.)
                  Last edited by Mister_Dunpeal; 11-09-2019, 02:44 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Supposedly Lilith just gave birth to Ennoia and then Caine turned her, if you believe the more noddist version of the myth

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                    • #25
                      There could be made an argument, that Gaia was already 'tired' when the shifters (except the Ananasi) were created by Luna and Helios, respectively.

                      Also, Mummy 2nd Edition has an eyewitness account if Isis, iirc, and she states that men in egypt were created by Ra. Men of other lands, were created by other gods.

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                      • #26
                        That God is not the God you know in reality, not even the God known to the church in the game universe. I remember in Days of Fire, the One Giver is refered to as "she, her, hers", also in some demon book (not sure which) a fallen says God is female and even ages with time, which makes the mortal it talks to unhappy. There is also something like "a mortal would call Lucifer the most beautiful of us", which implies that in thier true visions they will not use such language. The Book religions don't get back the ancient universal language, and therefore cannot describe what really were there in the fallen's memory. Even if they get the old language back, that's just the fallen's view.
                        I am not saying they are lying or some others are lying. An old story in my country: a blind man touched a leg of an elephant, said "an elephant is like a pillar"; another blind man touched an ear of the elephant, said"an elephant is like a fan".
                        Human languages are limited (you can't describe "colors" of ultraviolet rays), and so are many other functions of ours. When a fallen uses a human body it cannot even keep all of its own history clear, let alone the nature of the creation.
                        If you would like to make every line of WoD matching, maybe you can try to imagine like this: The ultimate answer exists in many dimensions, and a given creature just express its projection from one direction. God may be the triat manifested in the angels' eyes( or anyway they feel the world). She treasures order as the Weaver, but also ages and changes as the other two, so she makes all kinds of strange (to the angels) decisions, and her leaving the world is just the balance of the triat has become so different from before that the fallen can no longer recognize the old pattern of forces.

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                        • #27
                          If you take a broad perspctive of KotE and Hunter (which have strong connections with each other and Exalted as well as some with DtF) you can see elements that would connect together. In KotE and Hunter we're told some creator entity abandons the world (and forces his minions to do so) because the champions were corrupted. KotE IIRC links it to the Yama Kings and we know Fyodor talks about the 'Dark Ones' locked away and who corrupted the 'shining ones'. It doesn't take much to link the Fallen to the Yama Kings or 'Dark Ones' (hell the Fallen WERE locked away until recently and they appeared only a bit later than Hunters did) and you can draw certain parallels between the Fallen corrupting mankind as well (and when the Fallen come back they haven't seen much sign of the Elohim or God, either.) We know in Hunter that the Scarlet Phoenix and Ebon Dragon share links in Hunter (Apocrypha again, but the description of the Messengers also reinforces this) and in DtF (Days of fire I believe hints at that, but some of the other books do too I believe.) And there are obvious parallels that can be made between Chi and Faith (and the harvesting thereof by the Fallen.)

                          It's very rough and there are bound to be contradictions, but the authors have always noted that crossovers between diffrent game systems invariably risk creating problems like that because they weren't meant to mesh too closely so I think it can be forgiven with some fudging to suit whatever setting is chosen to dominate. At that point it just becomes again 'unreliable narrator' and 'myth and legend and not having all the information' to skew the accuracy of certain details (Human bias creeping into Fallen perceptions, the mental trauma of being locked away so long, their absence from the world leaving gaps in their memories, etc.)

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                            How can Lilith be the progenitor of Ennoia supposedly when all Kindred are apparently descended from Caine? (Which definitely isn't the case for all Vampires in WoD, but Ennoia is an Antediluvian, which means she's 3rd Generation)

                            Also that couldn't possibly be the case since chronologically Lilith was the first wife of Adam supposedly, but she was cast out for defying him and also supposedly bore Ennoia from the sexual assault that took place due to Adam. That would mean Ennoia would've been the first Vampire, not Caine, but somehow that isn't the case- which would render Lilith giving birth to Ennoia not true at all.
                            The first people mentioned in the bible all lived centuries. Ennoia could have been born by Lilith not long after the creation and still been around a few hundred years later when Caine and the 2nd generation were around.

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                            • #29
                              Presumably Lilith and any offspring of hers wouldn't necessarily have been rendered mortal at all as Adam, Eve, and their children were if we're taking Biblical origin stories as literal truth.

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