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  • Blending in Star Trek

    On another board I'm engaged in blending Star Trek ( mainly OS but whatever I seem fun ) with the WoD classic. Basically, a desperate Hermetic and and equally desperate Wrinkle, with the aide of a dying Deity level being pull a fast one and temporarily save reality ( so called).

    What are your ideas for blending Star Trek and the WoD?

    If you think it a bad/silly idea, please pass in silence.

    Thank-you for your attention.

  • #2
    I've had a discussion like this on more than one occasion: first thing you need to decide is whether vampires burn when exposed to the direct light of any star (up close of course), or just Sol (i.e., our sun); and if it's not limited to our sun/Sol, does it matter whether it's a main sequence star, or the kind of light it gives off? And how far away from the sun does the vampire have to get (in AU) before the light from the sun is so diffuse that it's not burning anymore?

    With regard to sleeping during the "day", what happens when there's no more "day"? Does the vampire just become unable to slumber (no WP point for you, unless you can meditate?), or do they default to whatever the established day/night cycle is on whatever vessel they board? What if they're on a ship of just other vampires, and there's no actual day/night cycle? Naturally I assume that if they land on another planet, they'd default to the day/night cycle for that planet--but then, if that planet's star doesn't have the same crisping effects on vamps that Sol does, would the whole sleeping-during-the-day thing still happen?

    Also, can you embrace/ghoul/dominate extraterrestrials? If so, which? Does anyone get special resistance to any given power (e.g., maybe Vulcans have more resistance to emotional manipulation per the merit "Judge's Wisdom"? Maybe as a species they just have higher average Willpowers, and that's it?)

    There are no wrong answers here, (at least I don't think there are,) but the ST basically has to make a number of metaphysical/cosmological decisions right from the get-go.


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    • #3
      I'd usually pull for outer space being entirely physical with a low gauntlet, but you're using Mage, it seems.

      Depending on the Triatic flavor of antimatter-matter reactions, some starships might get a whole lot less pleasant. Pulling space around you to move faster than light, too.

      Time travel in the WoD is usually really limited compared to in Trek. For the particulars of an adventure in Shattered Dreams, there was no way to get anything better out of it; you could only go back and prevent meddling that would make the timeline worse. Speaking of which, Nightmaster seems to be a shoe-in for the agency that made time collide with anti-time at the end of TNG, since that shares similarities with the time travel adventure in SD where he ventures back in time to perform rites that would unmake history.

      How does the Federation deal with the Delirium? Does it have protocols for dealing with known mind control sources like the Guild does in Exalted? For that matter, do the various human-like aliens suffer from the Delirium, perhaps from changers that were on their planet?

      I'd imagine that Vulcans would react very poorly to both Vortices and Nexus Crawlers. Some of the might also be in danger of falling to OneSong.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
        I'd usually pull for outer space being entirely physical with a low gauntlet, but you're using Mage, it seems.
        I don't think it's necessary for Mage to have the Space be the Umbra.

        It wasn't that way until Infinite Tapestry. A product of late Revised. An answer to the complains about making the Umbra to be "unreachable" (including "101 ways to pierce the Storm" + plots on the Umbra )...but still pretty much a product of Revised wanting to keep Earth and humans as the clear center of the universe

        Book of Worlds leaved the question open. And Mage being infamous for bringing actual physical aliens, explicitly as "not ephemera", in the antagonist section (from nowhere, and with 0 elaboration of how that works...of course!) kinda hinted to the idea that it wasn't the case. For players that use 2nd ed or early Revised (like most spanish talking players do, as late Revised was never traduced) Outer Space doesn't need to be one with the spirit world.
        Point is: Outer Space after the asteroid belt being the Deep Umbra it's a canon concept, but not a very "core" concept. And I don't see what a Mage adventure in OS (that leaves aside Revised canon assumptions about "the right way to play Mage" by literal ligth years) gains by obeying it

        In my opinion, OS it's more fun when aliens don't need to have the Umbrood "label" on them.

        Only thing I would like to keep from late Revised era for a story in space it's Threat Null (the canon Borg). That has to be pondered. They shouldn't be very hard to port, more a product of the Avatar Storm preventing people from getting out of Horizon Realms to the phisical side than the Deep Umbra being Outer Space.
        Last edited by Aleph; 12-30-2019, 08:45 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Aleph View Post

          I don't think it's necessary for Mage to have the Space be the Umbra.

          It wasn't that way until Infinite Tapestry. A product of late Revised. An answer to the complains about making the Umbra to be "unreachable" (including "101 ways to pierce the Storm" + plots on the Umbra )...but still pretty much a product of Revised wanting to keep Earth and humans as the clear center of the universe

          Book of Worlds leaved the question open. And Mage being infamous for bringing actual physical aliens, explicitly as "not ephemera", in the antagonist section (from nowhere, and with 0 elaboration of how that works...of course!) kinda hinted to the idea that it wasn't the case. For players that use 2nd ed or early Revised (like most spanish talking players do, as late Revised was never traduced) Outer Space doesn't need to be one with the spirit world.
          Point is: Outer Space after the asteroid belt being the Deep Umbra it's a canon concept, but not a very "core" concept. And I don't see what a Mage adventure in OS (that leaves aside Revised canon assumptions about "the right way to play Mage" by literal ligth years) gains by obeying it
          I mean. sure, but you did just say it was canon to Mage, so it's a thing that needs to be mentioned, even if only to bring up the toggle switch to set it to "off".

          In my opinion, OS it's more fun when aliens don't need to have the Umbrood "label" on them.

          Only thing I would like to keep from late Revised era for a story in space it's Threat Null (the canon Borg). That has to be pondered. They shouldn't be very hard to port, more a product of the Avatar Storm preventing people from getting out of Horizon Realms to the phisical side than the Deep Umbra being Outer Space.
          But outer space's Umbral reflection in W:tA is the Aetherial Realm, not the Deep Umbra. The Deep Umbra is way further out in W:tA, requiring that one goes through another Gauntlet of sorts in the form of the Membrane.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
            But outer space's Umbral reflection in W:tA is the Aetherial Realm, not the Deep Umbra. The Deep Umbra is way further out in W:tA, requiring that one goes through another Gauntlet of sorts in the form of the Membrane.
            I thought the Aetherial Realm was just a Middle Umbral Realm (albeit a huge one with spiritual correspondents to the planets/what Mages call the Shade/Shard realms). I'm basing this mostly on a box in some book that explains that there's like four or five major umbral reflections of the moon, one of which is in the Aetherial Realm (i.e., Sohkta).


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            • #7
              Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
              I thought the Aetherial Realm was just a Middle Umbral Realm (albeit a huge one with spiritual correspondents to the planets/what Mages call the Shade/Shard realms). I'm basing this mostly on a box in some book that explains that there's like four or five major umbral reflections of the moon, one of which is in the Aetherial Realm (i.e., Sohkta).
              Because it's further away from Earth, the Penumbra of outer space is a Near Realm. When you step sideways in space, however, you're now in the Aetherial Realm (much as with stepping sideways at sufficiently high altitude); if you enter one of the Planetary sub-Realms and then step sideways, you're now on that stellar object or planet, physically speaking. You'd better make sure that you picked up Adaptation before you step sideways in such a Realm, and Kiss of Helios before you ever try that around Katanka-Sonnak's stomping grounds.
              Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 12-31-2019, 12:57 PM.

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              • #8
                All of this helps. I've already set up Threat Null as both the Borg (Autopolitans) and the Gamma Quadrant Shifters (Transhumanity). The Agents and the Residents cover the role of the Vorta.

                I'm figuring out the role of the Fera.

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                • #9
                  Sylvia and Korob!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
                    Sylvia and Korob!
                    Powerful Umbroods clearly. Sylvia makes it clear that Magic is real in the Star Trek universe. The transmuter only amplifies, it doesn't create.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist
                      But outer space's Umbral reflection in W:tA is the Aetherial Realm, not the Deep Umbra. The Deep Umbra is way further out in W:tA, requiring that one goes through another Gauntlet of sorts in the form of the Membrane.
                      In Mage material outer space's "default" Umbral reflection is the Horizon (Shamans can enter the Aetherial Realm instead), and the Deep Umbra it's also further away past the Membrane.

                      What they changed in Mage Revised it's that Horizon coincides "spatially" with the Asteroid Belt, and outside the belt there's only (well, mostly) the Deep Umbra.

                      My point was to think if this matters for Threat Null: I don't think it matters a lot.

                      Mages were living on the spirit side of things anyway (Horizon Realms), and thus they would have been trapped by the Storm and disembody anyway. Only thing, Threat Null EDE need to have the Materialize charm (otherwise it would be too easy for a void ship avoid them by stepping sideways)

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                      • #12
                        I didn't think stepping sideways was supposed to be an option out past the Horizon (unless one was on a planet/Shard Realm). Different groups conceptualize the Deep Umbra in different ways, but it's all one thing out that far, whether you think of it as outer space, Etherspace, or what have you.

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                        • #13
                          Space is clearly the Umbra in Star Trek that's why its filled with Literal Gods. The Q. The Prophets. The Founders....

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan
                            I didn't think stepping sideways was supposed to be an option out past the Horizon (unless one was on a planet/Shard Realm). Different groups conceptualize the Deep Umbra in different ways, but it's all one thing out that far, whether you think of it as outer space, Etherspace, or what have you.
                            Back in 2e, the planets of the solar system *weren't* on the Deep Umbra (nor was the space surrounding them).

                            A case can be made that space far outside the whole solar system was always the Deep Umbra (at least in Mage) because the Membrane was shown to be somewhere beyond the Solar System in the map. Infinite Tappestry and VE:Revised take that to heart, explicitly saying that before the Storm conventional space was bigger (up to Pluto at least)... However BoW explicitly left that into question, as ST discretion

                            On the other hand, you were able to get into the Deep Umbra trough the Marianas Trench too...spatial distance from earth was not what "made" someplace to be adjacent with the Deep. It was moreof a conceptual distance with humanity

                            And Werewolves CAN still step sideways past the Asteroid Belt. It's a contradiction between gamelines that can't be solved without extremely convoluted headcanon

                            Originally posted by Lian
                            Space is clearly the Umbra in Star Trek that's why its filled with Literal Gods. The Q. The Prophets. The Founders....
                            That in WoD there can't be God-like beings that aren't also Spirits, I find almost as disappointing as that there can't be aliens that aren't also another color of spirit...at least from the scope of a space faring adventure that's supposed to go where "no man has gone before"
                            Last edited by Aleph; 01-06-2020, 08:48 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                              That in WoD there can't be God-like beings that aren't also Spirits, I find almost as disappointing as that there can't be aliens that aren't also another color of spirit...at least from the scope of a space faring adventure that's supposed to go where "no man has gone before"

                              I think you have a very minimalistic view of Umbrood. Umbrood/spirits are a catch all term for beings not native to Earth. That some shaman is just going to call a shapeshifting mass of plasm a "Spirit" prioritizes the mystic reading of the universe? To the Void Engineer just because that energy being is calling itself "thor" doesn't make it a god. Its clearly like in Star Trek when they meet Apollo or Q.

                              That being said I feel like in both the WOD and Star Trek that there are islands of stability in a Sea of Madness. That's why you go far enough away from "Civilization' in Star Trek and you start finding wierd energy gods who want to test you and shit. Its why the rules break down and technobable solutions work one week and fail the next.

                              By the time of the 24th century the Solar system seems to be an lsland of stability.. though really we don't see much past mars who knows when the laws of reality would start to change?

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