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  • #16
    Originally posted by Lian View Post
    I think you have a very minimalistic view of Umbrood. Umbrood/spirits are a catch all term for beings not native to Earth. That some shaman is just going to call a shapeshifting mass of plasm a "Spirit" prioritizes the mystic reading of the universe? To the Void Engineer just because that energy being is calling itself "thor" doesn't make it a god. Its clearly like in Star Trek when they meet Apollo or Q.
    Call it whatever you want, it's still a being that enters squarely on the Spirit Sphere and can't be affected with Life or Matter (and most likely have Rage/Gnosis/Willpower/Essence as Traits). Nobody it's going to buy that it's made of "plasm" if the Spheres that affect masses of plasm on Earth don't affect it, but the Spheres that affect spirits on earth do (nor if they're the same in everything but name).

    Replace Spirit with DimSci if you want. It has minimal differences, really.

    By the time of the 24th century the Solar system seems to be an lsland of stability.. though really we don't see much past mars who knows when the laws of reality would start to change?
    Well, hopefully they do, because otherwise it seems that you need Spirit/DimSci 5 to be there and that the Spirit/DimSci Sphere affects everything out there the same way...and that sounds a lot like everything following the same "laws of reality"

    See my point?. That's what I find depressing: Mage likes to put everything out there on the same small subset of the "rules basket". If everything it's Spirit (call it whatever you want, I'm defining things by how they actually work rather than just putting fancy, but ultimately meaningless, fluff over them) and you can't find Life out there, then everything follows the same "laws of reality" after a certain point. Heck, the laws become way more rigid than on Earth if you accept that - and that's what I don't like. There's a clear anthropocentrism on making only Earth and its surroundings to be different.

    This was obviously intentional, but doesn't feel right from a non-anthropocentric paradigm (and Star Treck it's constantly defying the idea that humans are the only beings that matter. With it's advanced aliens, sapient androids and holograms)

    I'm much more open to a "Universal Umbra" concept if it really has different laws in different places. Like when the Hollow Earth was said to be fully material (as in, you would find beings made of flesh there, beings that would fall off the scope of Spirit/DimSci to some extent, while entering the scope of Life/Matter) in spite of being technically part of what Hermetics called "the Umbra"...but, of course, that changes a lot of what it's understood as Umbra.

    Currently only the DigiWeb, that runs on Forces rather than Spirit, defies the norm (and you can step sideways from there to the Middle Umbra, so...some could say they're sepparate). And, really, what's the problem if OS allows the same?
    Last edited by Aleph; 01-07-2020, 08:58 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Aleph View Post

      Call it whatever you want, it's still a being that enters squarely on the Spirit Sphere and can't be affected with Life or Matter (and most likely have Rage/Gnosis/Willpower/Essence as Traits). Nobody it's going to buy that it's made of "plasm" if the Spheres that affect masses of plasm on Earth don't affect it, but the Spheres that affect spirits on earth do (nor if they're the same in everything but name).

      Replace Spirit with DimSci if you want. It has minimal differences, really.
      actually dim sci is kind of a weaker sphere? AT least as of VE revised it you would need Life+dimsci to effect an alien. Its much better at "Terraforming" an area than Spirit is.. but has costs. It can't make say fetishes for example.



      Well, hopefully they do, because otherwise it seems that you need Spirit/DimSci 5 to be there and that the Spirit/DimSci Sphere affects everything out there the same way...and that sounds a lot like everything following the same "laws of reality"

      Dimsci is the Terraforming sphere. It is necissary to impose Earth Reality on an area. It Imposes Technocratic rules on an area.





      See my point?. That's what I find depressing: Mage likes to put everything out there on the same small subset of the "rules basket". If everything it's Spirit (call it whatever you want, I'm defining things by how they actually work rather than just putting fancy, but ultimately meaningless, fluff over them) and you can't find Life out there, then everything follows the same "laws of reality" after a certain point. Heck, the laws become way more rigid than on Earth if you accept that - and that's what I don't like. There's a clear anthropocentrism on making only Earth and its surroundings to be different.
      Not really. You're taking game mechanics as physics. By that same logic is all of human skills divided into levels of 5?

      Consider instead that this is a game generally set on Earth meant to be run as such. That its not infact a game mechanically built to handle space as multiple invasive realities one has to bring ones "reality" to to perhaps even survive? Just like as I don't consider the lack of Phasers in Mage as meaning I can't have Phasers in Star Trek:WOD I consider that the game was not built with Phasers in mind and erred on the side of running thing simplistically.

      So That being said the Fluff states that everything SHOULD be different. That Dimsci and Spirit to a lesser extent let you bring your rules with you. If I am doing star Trek then it behooves me to make up "Weird Reality shit" just as much as it behooves me to make a Phaser.


      This was obviously intentional, but doesn't feel right from a non-anthropocentric paradigm (and Star Treck it's constantly defying the idea that humans are the only beings that matter. With it's advanced aliens, sapient androids and holograms)
      I disagree strongly that "humans aren't the center of the universe" in Star Trek. ESPECIALLY if you built it on the back of the WOD. The Culture maybe.

      I'm much more open to a "Universal Umbra" concept if it really has different laws in different places. Like when the Hollow Earth was said to be fully material (as in, you would find beings made of flesh there, beings that would fall off the scope of Spirit/DimSci to some extent, while entering the scope of Life/Matter) in spite of being technically part of what Hermetics called "the Umbra"...but, of course, that changes a lot of what it's understood as Umbra.

      Currently only the DigiWeb, that runs on Forces rather than Spirit, defies the norm (and you can step sideways from there to the Middle Umbra, so...some could say they're sepparate). And, really, what's the problem if OS allows the same?

      Because the Digital Web is the only one with itsown damned book! That's why. the Dreaming "works differently". The Underworld "works differently" Hell the high and Middle Umbra have slight rules differences. That there's no Rules for The Unique properties of Alpha Centari is well because that was never built for the game.

      Do not be beholden to mechanics that are just simplifications. Go with the Fluff. Build from the Fluff.

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      • #18
        I'm still building up my take on the Classic World of Darkness Blended with Star Trek. I added the Imbued Hunters. The Mercy creeds I placed in the Federation, the Vision Creeds were outside of the Federation and the Zeal creeds were widely scattered. I also decided that the Imbued Hunters, the Changelings, and the Mages, were the only ones with full memories of both the blended and pre-blended worlds. Thus an Innocent (a type of Imbued Hunter) would remember her life in lets say East LA as a paraplegic Latina girl in a gang ridden neighborhood, and her new life as a healthy strong young ensign on a Federation Science ship, the captain of which is a Hermetic Mage, and the Counselor is a Native American Changeling linked to the Cherokee people! Life is both good and extra involved!

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        • #19
          Star Trek and the WoD don't really mesh together; unless Star Trek is based around a Mage's journey with Quiet. I see a Star Trek based in M:tA with all the players being figments of a mad-mage's insanity.

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          • #20
            My take on the Umbra thing is that the inner system (everywhere out to the orbit of Neptune) is an island of stability in the Deep Umbra. Two things here: first, the boundary has been pushed out further than it was in the 21st century (asteroid belt to Kuiper cloud). Second, it's an island of stability. The Vulcan system is another island of stability; the Andorian and Tellarite systems are, too, as are the Klingon and Romulan homeworlds.

            More generally, every M-Class world exists in an island of stability. And the denizens of an island of stability aren't subject to Spirit anymore than the denizens of our island of stability are. There are things out there that qualify as Umbrood; but they're more along the lines of the Space Amoeba and its ilk, or beings that have “evolved beyond their physical forms” like the Organians. Nearly all of the “humans in rubber masks” aliens aren't Umbrood, and thus aren't subject to being summoned, commanded, banished, or warded against.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
              My take on the Umbra thing is that the inner system (everywhere out to the orbit of Neptune) is an island of stability in the Deep Umbra. Two things here: first, the boundary has been pushed out further than it was in the 21st century (asteroid belt to Kuiper cloud). Second, it's an island of stability. The Vulcan system is another island of stability; the Andorian and Tellarite systems are, too, as are the Klingon and Romulan homeworlds.

              More generally, every M-Class world exists in an island of stability. And the denizens of an island of stability aren't subject to Spirit anymore than the denizens of our island of stability are. There are things out there that qualify as Umbrood; but they're more along the lines of the Space Amoeba and its ilk, or beings that have “evolved beyond their physical forms” like the Organians. Nearly all of the “humans in rubber masks” aliens aren't Umbrood, and thus aren't subject to being summoned, commanded, banished, or warded against.
              Solid viewpoint. A very useable set of ideas.

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              • #22
                Here's another. Star Trek: the Motion Picture depicts the Computer attempting to “return home” to Earth from Autochthon by way of a Voyager probe. You need to shuffle around Autochthon's location for this to work (relocate it from “counter-Earth” to the Deep Umbra); but otherwise, everything lines up.


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                  Here's another. Star Trek: the Motion Picture depicts the Computer attempting to “return home” to Earth from Autochthon by way of a Voyager probe. You need to shuffle around Autochthon's location for this to work (relocate it from “counter-Earth” to the Deep Umbra); but otherwise, everything lines up.

                  I reposted both ideas to another board (GURPS) because I think the ideas are sound.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Astromancer View Post
                    On another board I'm engaged in blending Star Trek ( mainly OS but whatever I seem fun ) with the WoD classic. Basically, a desperate Hermetic and and equally desperate Wrinkle, with the aide of a dying Deity level being pull a fast one and temporarily save reality ( so called).

                    What are your ideas for blending Star Trek and the WoD?

                    If you think it a bad/silly idea, please pass in silence.

                    Thank-you for your attention.
                    I could see it and I think it would be a lot of fun. I'd go with a far future game. As the mortals spread into the solar system the supes followed them, some in their own ships and others stowing away in mortal run vessels. The various supernaturals found colonies along side the mortals, and eventually mortal technology became advanced enough that the supernaturals could no longer hide from the mortals. At this point you start mixing in the Star Trek stuff and first contact.

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                    • #25
                      I'm still developing the setting on the GURPS boards at SJgames. When I draw up a list of who keeps their original memories, who gets new memories, and in what combination, I'll post here.

                      Right now assume the Cainite Vampires keep their old memories but get no new ones, thus they are seriously lost in the setting. Meanwhile, Changelings, and similar beings, Mages, Kinaine, and Imbued Hunters, all keep the original memories and get new ones.

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