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When did the Gauntlet go up?

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  • When did the Gauntlet go up?

    1000BC? 20,000BC? 1 million BC?

    Kindred of the East (page 8) says that in the First Age there was no Gauntlet, but as the Ages turned it went up. So was there a Wall in the Second Age? The Third? The Fourth?
    Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 02-28-2020, 08:01 AM.


    I play...
    Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
    Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

  • #2
    My guess would be third or fourth, given that the Second Age in Exalted doesn't have a Gauntlet.

    Comment


    • #3
      It can’t be 1 million BC or no vampire would remember.

      I would say it started by the time Charon becomes the first Wraith, the gauntlet going up being the reason he was the first. As he used to live near a big river in the Occident before his death, I would put him in the old Mesopotamia.

      If you pick the first Pharaohs list, you have the old gods, treating them as powerful spirits, you can say there was no wall. As the Chinese empire is as old as Egyptian, you can say the origins of the Chinese empire was in the first age, so before the gauntlet goes up (good for KotE)

      Osisris is know for his relationship with death, his wife, Isis, was the most powerful magician of her time. If you pick those and the entire Seth x Horus thing, I would put his death as the rise of the Gauntlet as a way Isis made her husband king even after death. As a side effect, the dead and the spirits were separated too.

      If you pick the list of the pharaohs in Wikipedia, Osiris was pharaoh between 5180BC and 5120 BC.

      Osisirs was not the last god that was Pharaoh, but the Gautlet was not that strong back then, so for the next 100 years or so powerful spirits were capable of materializing. This capacity was lost eventually and the mythic empire become the first dynasty.


      The proper answer to “Hello There” is, obviously, “General Kenobi”.
      Fists of Flux - Inspired and Powered Martial Arts for Talents
      Tomes of Inspiration - Rituals and Dark Magic in Fists of Flux

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by TheCountAlucard View Post
        My guess would be third or fourth, given that the Second Age in Exalted doesn't have a Gauntlet.
        True, but KotE's First Age is formless unity, it's Second Age has the Demon Kings falling, the Third Age has humans ruled by the heroic 10,000 Heroes who cast down the Demon Kings. So I think if you want to 1st ed Exalted's tenuous connection to WoD, you have to roll the ages forward by 1.
        Last edited by The Wizard of Oz; 02-28-2020, 12:05 PM.


        I play...
        Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
        Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
          It can’t be 1 million BC or no vampire would remember.

          I would say it started by the time Charon becomes the first Wraith, the gauntlet going up being the reason he was the first. As he used to live near a big river in the Occident before his death, I would put him in the old Mesopotamia.

          If you pick the first Pharaohs list, you have the old gods, treating them as powerful spirits, you can say there was no wall. As the Chinese empire is as old as Egyptian, you can say the origins of the Chinese empire was in the first age, so before the gauntlet goes up (good for KotE)

          Osisris is know for his relationship with death, his wife, Isis, was the most powerful magician of her time. If you pick those and the entire Seth x Horus thing, I would put his death as the rise of the Gauntlet as a way Isis made her husband king even after death. As a side effect, the dead and the spirits were separated too.

          If you pick the list of the pharaohs in Wikipedia, Osiris was pharaoh between 5180BC and 5120 BC.

          Osisirs was not the last god that was Pharaoh, but the Gautlet was not that strong back then, so for the next 100 years or so powerful spirits were capable of materializing. This capacity was lost eventually and the mythic empire become the first dynasty.
          Hmmm, some interesting ideas there!


          I play...
          Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
          Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

          Comment


          • #6
            Well, KotE core also says to become Wan Xian the soul of a mortal must cross the Wall, which means it has risen during that time. And the formation of Wan Xian means the turning of Age (Second to Third). But in First Age the spirit and material are the one, so...

            So I think it maybe sometime during Second Age, the most conservative estimate

            Fourth Age already has Wall but it’s weaker. see Blood and Silk, which is set in the very last of Fourth Age, and it has some very interesting stuff

            You can also insult Shattered Dreams

            Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
            As the Chinese empire is as old as Egyptian, you can say the origins of the Chinese empire was in the first age, so before the gauntlet goes up (good for KotE)
            Emmm, in KotE the whole Chinese mortal empire was after the fall of Wan Xian, which marks the pull of wheel from Third to Fourth Age

            The first age is in the perfect harmony, iirc it’s veil
            Last edited by Rock113; 02-28-2020, 01:50 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Ok. the additional info don't alter my approach (that don't count the eras, except for the reference you pointed).

              If we mark the Start of the mortal empire, we can point the same way I did for Egypt. The mortal empire starts in the third era, with the raise of the wall that end up forcing the spirits away from the mortal world.

              I may be wrong, but the fall of Wan Xian can be the same time as the end of the Egyptian mythical era (when the gods were the Pharaohs). If that's the case the entire fall of wan xian and end of the mythical egypt can be caused by the same issue (or one caused the other or vice versa). Honestly its been since I pick my KotE books or my Mummy books...


              The proper answer to “Hello There” is, obviously, “General Kenobi”.
              Fists of Flux - Inspired and Powered Martial Arts for Talents
              Tomes of Inspiration - Rituals and Dark Magic in Fists of Flux

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                Ok. the additional info don't alter my approach (that don't count the eras, except for the reference you pointed).
                The whole mortal empire (or, all recorded history) is the Fourth Age thing. Blood and Silk sets the Xia empire (1st Chinese empire) at the beginning of the fourth age iirc.

                Third Age may be much earlier than this. Shattered Dream of W20 (I don’t know if it’s canon) thinks the War of Shame (a War of Rage in Middle Kingdom, which was raised by corrupted Wan Xian) can date back to 12000 BC at least iirc

                You can look at the Blood and Silk, which is useful when finding out these question

                *But to be honest, it is not uncommon that two game lines contradict each other...
                Last edited by Rock113; 02-28-2020, 01:59 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                  *But to be honest, it is not uncommon that two game lines contradict each other...
                  True in so many levels...

                  Thats one thing they did on CoD that would be useful on WoD, they made the past a giant question mark, until they mage the book that unify all the past into a single line, including how the world was before the entire Gauntlet.

                  Thats plan ahead, and it didn't happen over the 15+ years of writing to the WoD (but come on, it was not supposed to be that big when they first start it).


                  The proper answer to “Hello There” is, obviously, “General Kenobi”.
                  Fists of Flux - Inspired and Powered Martial Arts for Talents
                  Tomes of Inspiration - Rituals and Dark Magic in Fists of Flux

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                    True in so many levels...

                    Thats one thing they did on CoD that would be useful on WoD, they made the past a giant question mark, until they mage the book that unify all the past into a single line, including how the world was before the entire Gauntlet.

                    Thats plan ahead, and it didn't happen over the 15+ years of writing to the WoD (but come on, it was not supposed to be that big when they first start it).
                    This is how oWoD works, bro. A fluff big as hell. I know your feeling.
                    Last edited by Rock113; 02-28-2020, 02:15 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                      Well, KotE core also says to become Wan Xian the soul of a mortal must cross the Wall, which means it has risen during that time. And the formation of Wan Xian means the turning of Age (Second to Third). But in First Age the spirit and material are the one, so...

                      So I think it maybe sometime during Second Age, the most conservative estimate
                      Hmmm... Good points, thanks.


                      Fourth Age already has Wall but it’s weaker. see Blood and Silk, which is set in the very last of Fourth Age, and it has some very interesting stuff
                      That's a Kindred of the East book? What's it about? It's not one I have.

                      You can also insult Shattered Dreams
                      Because it contradicts so much other stuff?
                      I own Shattered Dreams, and I kind of liked it, but man is it confusing when you try and mesh it with other WoD stuff.





                      I play...
                      Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                      Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        This is one of those questions that, accursed idiom that it is, every ST needs to decide for the needs of their own table, chronicle, and cosmology.

                        For me personally though, I usually use ~10,000 BCE as being around the period where history 'solidifies' and The Gauntlet rises to slowly wean pure power from the world until we can get something resembling the modern nights and our own reality.

                        I use that era to be around the time where after millennia of a legendary pseudo-spiritual existence as kami-like (as in WtA lore, not Shinto belief) beings, the changing breeds solidified into something resembling their current form as they entered the period of internal strife and conflict with humanity caused by their newly material existence and The Gauntlet which would be the foundational reason of the Wars of Rage & Impergium to follow.

                        I also use this as around the period where Enoch was destroyed by the Deluge and The Fallen were sealed into The Pit and all the various biblical antediluvian (lower case 'A') beings were either destroyed or buried as a more 'mundane' phase of existence was born.

                        I also use this to represent the period where the Age of Myths & Legends described by Mages and The Fae end. The earliest mages fade into pre-history as the laws of magick shift towards what we recognize today and The Firstborn (Tuatha de Danaan, Fomorians, etc) begin the process of migrating into The Deep Dreaming & Beyond.

                        Again this is just all my theories and a bit of metaplot stitchery, but ~12,000-10,000 BCE is the point I use where the Multi-Resonance Layered Reality solidifies with the Material ("Real World") and Umbra/Astral (Everything Else) is created beyond The Gauntlet to allow for non-mythic existence to truly begin.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Seems like everyone is going for a bit before recorded history then, rather than 100,000 years ago.


                          I play...
                          Kovan, actor, librarian, sorcerer, great bear, Lunar Elder from the First Age
                          Thutmose-Osiris, seventh son of a seventh son, descendant of the Supreme Deity Sukhmet, renegade demigod and bearer of the Ghoul-Banishing Bow. Also bright green.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                            That's a Kindred of the East book? What's it about? It's not one I have.
                            You can treat it as a KotE book, talking about all shen (mainly Wan Gui of course) and Middle Kingdom of Dark Age (more accurately, 1197AD, when is the very last of Fourth Age). A great book if you want to play games set in that time or the whole Fourth Age.

                            Originally posted by The Wizard of Oz View Post
                            Because it contradicts so much other stuff?
                            Emmm no I think it talks about Prehistoric a lot and may give you some points

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Additionally I find that
                              Gauntlet did go up in Second Age, at least in KotE.

                              Blood and Silk, Page 104

                              During the Second Age, the August Personage spread great Celestial Nets between the Middle Kingdom and the realms of the spirit. These nets ordered universe by separating Earth from Heaven, the real from the notional and the living from the dead.

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