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How do Kue-jin (Kindred of the East) see through Obfuscate and Chimerstry?

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  • How do Kue-jin (Kindred of the East) see through Obfuscate and Chimerstry?

    I thought Kue-jin resisted Obfuscate and Chimer (or illusion and mind trickery in general for that matter) with their Hun, since Hun can act like Auspex 1 -- but now re-reading it, I'm not sure...

    Thoughts?


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  • #2
    It does work that way, yes. It gives them an effective Discipline level equal to their Dharma rating for this purpose.

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    • #3
      Ancient Chinese secret.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
        It does work that way, yes. It gives them an effective Discipline level equal to their Dharma rating for this purpose.
        It’s a flawed system

        A starting vampire can have a 5-dot illusion and mind trickery Discipline at most. But Kuei-Jim may need one hundred or more years to attain Dharma 5...

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
          It’s a flawed system

          A starting vampire can have a 5-dot illusion and mind trickery Discipline at most. But Kuei-Jim may need one hundred or more years to attain Dharma 5...
          Crossover rules according to Vampire have always sucked. Garou and Fera are roughly in the same boat from the V:tM perspective, since it treats Rank like a Discipline level. Every other game has moved away from direct, level to level comparisons, but V:tM stays stubbornly in 1993 when it comes to crossover.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
            It’s a flawed system

            A starting vampire can have a 5-dot illusion and mind trickery Discipline at most. But Kuei-jin may need one hundred or more years to attain Dharma 5...
            I don't think a starting vampire can have any discipline at 5, even if they blow all their freebies on the disciplines, I think there's a cap on the max level of starting disciplines (but I could also be mistaken). Having said that, the flip-side to this is that the only thing in the way of a Kue-jin achieving further levels of enlightenment is time. Every step above 5 that a Cainite wants to take their Obfuscate or Chimer requires that they already be that next lower generation (which, hey, maybe you're playing that kind of game), or that they hunt down and best someone of a lower generation (where being of lower generations is exponentially better in terms of blood and overall power level), and not merely kill them, but subdue them in order to commit the amaranth--which is problematic for reasons that don't require any explanation here.

            Given the incredible power disparity between the Kindred and the Kue-jin (the latter are, one for one, way more powerful, which the metaplot certainly bears out), it's the least they could do for the Kindred that they arguably a slight edge when it comes to being able to hide or befuddle the Kue-jin (and shifters for that matter).
            Last edited by CaptOtter; 04-19-2020, 08:46 PM.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
              I don't think a starting vampire can have any discipline at 5, even if they blow all their freebies on the disciplines, I think there's a cap on the max level of starting disciplines (but I could also be mistaken). Having said that, the flip-side to this is that the only thing in the way of a Kue-jin achieving further levels of enlightenment is time. Every step above 5 that a Cainite wants to take their Obfuscate or Chimer requires that they already be that next lower generation (which, hey, maybe you're playing that kind of game), or that they hunt down and best someone of a lower generation (where being of lower generations is exponentially better in terms of blood and overall power level), and not merely kill them, but subdue them in order to commit the amaranth--which is problematic for reasons that don't require any explanation here.

              Given the incredible power disparity between the Kindred and the Kue-jin (the latter are, one for one, way more powerful, which the metaplot certainly bears out), it's the least they could do for the Kindred that they arguably a slight edge when it comes to being able to hide or befuddle the Kue-jin (and shifters for that matter).
              Hungry Dead will have, by XP, half as many Discipline dots. Discipline dots determine which effects take predominance. There is a bit of a numerical problem with your estimation of power, here.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                Hungry Dead will have, by XP, half as many Discipline dots. Discipline dots determine which effects take predominance. There is a bit of a numerical problem with your estimation of power, here.
                Except in this case, it's not actually a Kindred Discipline vs. Kue-jin Discipline conflict--it's Kindred Discipline vs. Dharma level (which doesn't even cost XP--it just takes time and RP). You yourself pointed out that this basically analogous to making the conflicting/opposed/detecting stat a werewolf's rank.

                The other crazy broken thing is that even though not every Kindred has Auspex (let alone Auspex high enough to pierce anyone's given Obf or Chim,) every single Kue-jin has a Hun, even if it's only 1--so literally every Kue-jin has the "power" to see through the Kindred's illusion/deception Disciplines, and what's more, it's based on the one stat that literally all Kue-jin are going to work to raise no matter what, without exception: Dharma.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
                  Except in this case, it's not actually a Kindred Discipline vs. Kue-jin Discipline conflict--it's Kindred Discipline vs. Dharma level (which doesn't even cost XP--it just takes time and RP). You yourself pointed out that this basically analogous to making the conflicting/opposed/detecting stat a werewolf's rank.

                  The other crazy broken thing is that even though not every Kindred has Auspex (let alone Auspex high enough to pierce anyone's given Obf or Chim,) every single Kue-jin has a Hun, even if it's only 1--so literally every Kue-jin has the "power" to see through the Kindred's illusion/deception Disciplines, and what's more, it's based on the one stat that literally all Kue-jin are going to work to raise no matter what, without exception: Dharma.

                  Why is it broken? a dharma 5 character has... an equal chance against horrid reality and and doesn't just "lose out right" honestly the whole rank vs rank this is what's broken. Obfuscate/chimestry should be something you can potentially defend against with lower levels its not like Fortitude stops working vs higher ranking powers.. or Luna's armor.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lian View Post
                    Why is it broken? a dharma 5 character has... an equal chance against horrid reality and and doesn't just "lose out right" honestly the whole rank vs rank this is what's broken. Obfuscate/chimestry should be something you can potentially defend against with lower levels its not like Fortitude stops working vs higher ranking powers.. or Luna's armor.
                    I also think it's not that broken, but this system is... broken

                    Just as he say, all wan gui still needs time to improve dharma, and it's not that easy. The years in Core are just the MINIMUM, most spend much longer to attain it, especially 5 to 6

                    Yeah in theory improve dharma is just a thing of time, but a kindred can be embraced as much lower gens and study more quickly, while all wan gui must begin at 1 (aka. 13th gens). when a lower gens kindred having higher-level mental disciplines is thrown at you, everything is meaningless

                    I always think dharma = gens is a bad idea, it should work like... I don't know, Arete of Mage? No matter what, I oppose treat it as gens

                    And the sytem should be repaired, greatly
                    Last edited by Rock113; 04-19-2020, 10:58 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
                      Except in this case, it's not actually a Kindred Discipline vs. Kue-jin Discipline conflict--it's Kindred Discipline vs. Dharma level (which doesn't even cost XP--it just takes time and RP). You yourself pointed out that this basically analogous to making the conflicting/opposed/detecting stat a werewolf's rank.
                      The mechanics of raising your Dharma and maintaining it are a tremendous headache. The higher your Willpower, the more difficult it is to raise, and oddly enough, it becomes easier to flub moments of blindness and take a hit to it. If you have Willpower 10 for whatever reason, in fact, it will become highly unlikely that you'll ever increase it, and it's equally likely that you'll be suffering Shadow Soul when auspicious occasions happen (and if you're at a low Dharma level, they will be, according to the text, happening quite frequently). Basically, you have to climb up on a bucking yo-yo onto a greased ledge several times without falling off.

                      All that, and your Disciplines cost twice as much, with no in-Clan breaks ever. A lot of them also require a roll to subdue your Po, including the most up-front equivalent of Celerity, which relies on a pool that auto-fills very slowly night by night. So as far as your assessment of overall power goes... well, the math is not with you. You can either progress quickly in a Dharma but be Dominate-bait, or accept a frustratingly slow pace of advancement that would make Philodox and Theurge Garou wince and not end up mentally controlled all the time (relying on the Po to pull your fat out of the frier is a fool's game; three to six dice at difficulty 9 means it helps you less than half of the time, at best, and botches will be frequent).

                      The other crazy broken thing is that even though not every Kindred has Auspex (let alone Auspex high enough to pierce anyone's given Obf or Chim,) every single Kue-jin has a Hun, even if it's only 1--so literally every Kue-jin has the "power" to see through the Kindred's illusion/deception Disciplines, and what's more, it's based on the one stat that literally all Kue-jin are going to work to raise no matter what, without exception: Dharma.
                      If you only have Hun 1, you have a maximum Willpower of 6 and Empathy of 1, and at chargen, you had to spend 4 bonus points just to get to the minimum Willpower threshold for Hungry Dead (5). You will also have steep difficulty in activating sharpened senses, which you will botch 10% of the time (it's a straight Hun roll at diff 6, so you'll fail or worse about half the time), to say nothing of spending most of your time in Shadow Soul. Some characters will shake out that way because of concept, but the odds that they're going to stick around like that - especially if you buy up Po - are rather low. Depending on what Dharma you are, this may also consign you to an early death or a lapse back into being a flesh-eater.

                      Meanwhile, if you try to go the other way to make sure that you can use heightened senses on demand with as little risk as possible, you can't spend Willpower points to get successes on rolls. Also, taking advantage of your higher Willpower cap stalls Dharmic development.

                      ...Damn, this math is shitty. Why the hell did I ever think that there were interesting mechanics in this book?

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                      • #12
                        Another tip

                        In theory wan gui can live as long as any kindred, including 3rd gens

                        But in fact we rarely see truly old wan gui, strangely

                        The oldest wan gui in Middle Age, as Blood & Silk says, "just" hail from Zhou Dynasty, and they're "only" 2000+ years old (I don't say they're not old, but when you compare Baba Yaga, Nergal, Lazarus and so on, they're not THAT old)

                        About truly old ones, it says
                        "It is rumored that some wan gui still remember the Third Age , but if that kind of beings does exist, they may have ascended into Heaven or fallen into Yomi"

                        In modern age most oldest wan gui just hail from Qin and Han dynasty, only 2000+ years old. Of course some guys, like Thousand Crane Mother the founder of thrashing dragons may be a thing of Third Age, but it's rare

                        What happened to those oldest beings?
                        Last edited by Rock113; 04-20-2020, 10:47 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                          The mechanics of raising your Dharma and maintaining it are a tremendous headache.
                          When you look at it from a distance, it's beautiful, power inreased with Enlightment, self-enlighted and so on, everything is just a matter of time

                          When you looks at it face to face, hey... what is this s**t?

                          WW things always like this, good in general and design, bad in details and system

                          Mage is another living example, older editions especially

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                            Another tip

                            In theory wan gui can live as long as any kindred, including 3rd gens

                            But in fact we rarely see truly old wan gui, strangely

                            The oldest wan gui in Middle Age, as Blood & Silk says, "just" hail from Zhou Dynasty, and they're "only" 3000+ years old (I don't say they're not old, but when you compare Baba Yaga, Nergal, Lazarus and so on, they're not THAT old)

                            About truly old ones, it says
                            "It is rumored that some wan gui still remember the Third Age , but if that kind of beings does exist, they may have ascended into Heaven or fallen into Yomi"

                            In modern age most oldest wan gui just hail from Qin and Han dynasty, only 2000+ years old. Of course some guys, like Thousand Crane Mother the founder of thrashing dragons may be a thing of Third Age, but it's rare

                            What happened to those oldest beings?
                            They Ascended, the whole point of Dharma is to leave this world not.. stay around forever.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lian View Post

                              They Ascended, the whole point of Dharma is to leave this world not.. stay around forever.
                              Boddhisattvas, per the real world concept, delay become Buddhas and entering Nirvana so that they can guide others toward it. So, while the ideal goal is to get everyone to ascend, a fair number should be sticking around a bit longer (a millennium or two more is nothing on the astronomical counts of years between ages) and not just leaving.

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