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How do Kue-jin (Kindred of the East) see through Obfuscate and Chimerstry?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
    The mechanics of raising your Dharma and maintaining it are a tremendous headache. The higher your Willpower, the more difficult it is to raise, and oddly enough, it becomes easier to flub moments of blindness and take a hit to it.
    Your Dharma's chosen Virtue rolls off against your P'oh -- both rolls are the difficulty of your Willpower; so the knife cuts both ways. Yeah, could fail or botch your virtue roll--but your P'oh could also fail or botch its roll. If it super duper worries you, you could always prioritize keeping your Dharma's virtue higher than your P'oh. If you're a Devil Tiger, I mean, it is what it is lol. Regardless, I'd rather be making these rolls to get from Dharma 5 to 6, than to be an 8th gen (or higher) playing the insanely dangerous game of hunting and diablerizing a 7th gen (or lower), and then have to deal with the fact that that vampire probably had allies; what I've done is super illegal; it's gonna be hard to hide it for the next year.

    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
    If you have Willpower 10 for whatever reason, in fact, it will become highly unlikely that you'll ever increase it, and it's equally likely that you'll be suffering Shadow Soul when auspicious occasions happen (and if you're at a low Dharma level, they will be, according to the text, happening quite frequently).
    Your positing a pretty bizarre situation--how did this Kue-jin come to have this insanely high Willpower with such a low Dharma? Who is this person who bought their WP to 10 (and the ST that allowed it), despite having this low-ass Dharma and (presumably) dismally low virtues? Having said that, again, Willpower 10 (dumb as it would be to have under the circumstances you've described) equally acts as a barrier to the P'oh.

    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
    All that, and your Disciplines cost twice as much[.]
    If we're going to bemoan the math, then let's not be loosee in our use of math terms--under no circumstance do the Disciplines cost twice as much. At most, compared to a Kindred's in-clan disciplines, they cost 60% more. It's not even fair to say "almost twice," if you consider that 60% is far closer to being "half again as much" than it is to being "twice as much". On top of that, the difference between out-of-clans and Kue-jin Disciplines is just 14%. Sure, it's more. But in neither instance is it twice as much--and given the fact that any given Kindred only has 3 Disciplines they're buying at x5, the overwhelming majority of the Kindred v. Kue-jin cost comparisons you're making are going to be that 14% number. Nowhere near your "twice".

    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
    with no in-Clan breaks ever.
    That also means there's little or no territorial gate keeping about disciplines. Any given Kue-jin having any given assortment of Disciplines is never going to be necessarily weird--as opposed to Kindred, where if you tell the average the V:tM player that your character in your home game has Temporis, Setite Sorcery, and Quietus... uncharitable assumptions will be made, to say the least.

    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
    A lot of them also require a roll to subdue your Po, including the most up-front equivalent of Celerity, which relies on a pool that auto-fills very slowly night by night. So as far as your assessment of overall power goes... well, the math is not with you.
    As I've already said, you're playing real fast and loose with the math here.

    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
    You can either progress quickly in a Dharma but be Dominate-bait, or accept a frustratingly slow pace of advancement that would make Philodox and Theurge Garou wince and not end up mentally controlled all the time (relying on the Po to pull your fat out of the frier is a fool's game; three to six dice at difficulty 9 means it helps you less than half of the time, at best, and botches will be frequent).
    There are other Kue-jin Disciplines that can help to mitigate Dominate. There are no Kindred disciplines (unless there's some elder level discipline, or a combo) that have anything for Dominate; you just need to be lower gen than the person (okay, so I guess you can be a Thaumaturge with a very particular level of the Path of Blood--super common). Needless to say, Kindred don't have anything for Obligation (and the third level works on everyone present without eye contact). Say what you will about the P'oh resistance to Dominate; every Kue-jin gets it right out of the box (which is important because it means that every Kue-jin has it), and it's a hell of a lot more than what Kindred get. I mean, if you're facing down a social stat monster who just gave you the ol' "sleep!"/"cease!"/"surrender!" (or whatever your preferred one-word command), would you rather just not have shit for that, or to make a roll at diff 9 using literally any one of your stats so you have even the off-chance of flummoxing your opponent. I'll take the long-shot over certain defeat any day of the week.

    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
    If you only have Hun 1, you have a maximum Willpower of 6 and Empathy of 1, and at chargen, you had to spend 4 bonus points just to get to the minimum Willpower threshold for Hungry Dead (5)
    Just buy some Hun, my dude. The point of my saying that even the Kue-jin with Hun 1 may pierce Obf or Chimer with their Dharma is that every single Kue-jin has this stat, and therefore every single Kue-jin comes equipped with the basic ability to pierce Kindred illusions; some Kindred got nothing; not even Auspex 1.

    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
    ...Damn, this math is shitty. Why the hell did I ever think that there were interesting mechanics in this book?
    Maybe because there's something to be said for the fact that the operation of the game's mechanics is such that the player has to be more strategic about when, whether, and by how much, to raise certain stats (as opposed to other games where it's like 'buy it if you can!') doesn't make this all nonsensical. The fact that some stats work on a seesaw means that there's more strategy to buy-ups than inconsiderately buying literally everything as high as possible as soon as possible.
    Last edited by CaptOtter; 04-20-2020, 01:05 AM.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
      Regardless, I'd rather be making these rolls to get from Dharma 5 to 6, than to be an 8th gen (or higher) playing the insanely dangerous game of hunting and diablerizing a 7th gen (or lower), and then have to deal with the fact that that vampire probably had allies; what I've done is super illegal; it's gonna be hard to hide it for the next year.
      Increasing Dharma and lowing Gens are all plot device, can’t be purchased by exp, but former is less plot than latter

      Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
      Any given Kue-jin having any given assortment of Disciplines is never going to be necessarily weird--as opposed to Kindred, where if you tell the average the V:tM player that your character in your home game has Temporis, Setite Sorcery, and Quietus... uncharitable assumptions will be made, to say the least.
      1. Wan gui disciplines are not that diverse compared to Kindred

      2. If you read dharma books you will find every dharma has a bit favor and hatred to certain Disciplines, but it doesn’t rise to “in-dharma” disciplines level

      For example, Bone Flowers favor Yin Praha, Thousand Whispers favor basic level Flesh Shintai because of their Mask culture, Resplendent Crane treat Cultivation 5 as heresy. But maybe they’re not that serious compared to Kindred, sorry I didn’t read much about VtM, maybe it is more illegal for a non-Tremere to have Thaumaturgy

      Of course infernal powers like Hellwaving and Bile Shintais are exception

      Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post

      There are other Kue-jin Disciplines that can help to mitigate Dominate. There are no Kindred disciplines (unless there's some elder level discipline, or a combo) that have anything for Dominate; you just need to be lower gen than the person (okay, so I guess you can be a Thaumaturge with a very particular level of the Path of Blood--super common). Needless to say, Kindred don't have anything for Obligation (and the third level works on everyone present without eye contact). Say what you will about the P'oh resistance to Dominate; every Kue-jin gets it right out of the box (which is important because it means that every Kue-jin has it), and it's a hell of a lot more than what Kindred get. I mean, if you're facing down a social stat monster who just gave you the ol' "sleep!"/"cease!"/"surrender!" (or whatever your preferred one-word command), would you rather just not have shit for that, or to make a roll at diff 9 using literally any one of your stats so you have even the off-chance of flummoxing your opponent. I'll take the long-shot over certain defeat any day of the week.
      Obligation is not that common among wan gui, and it’s not that convenient as you think, that’s why wan gui keep their Masquerade (Scarlett Screen) more carefully

      Kindred tends to have greater mental disciplines

      Even if you go to their bigger advantage, much more ways to deal add damage. It is still not that great today. Vampire has more supplements, more combo and alternative disciplines, and many of them can do this. It’s another thing if they’re common enough

      You do ignore some negative aspects. Kindred can reproduce much faster, which is a big advantage to all other splats. They can embrace or ghoul easily and fast, but wan gui can’t embrace, and only Obligation 5 can “ghoul” mortals and it’s very rare, they do can reproduce dhampry, but it’s too costly
      Last edited by Rock113; 04-20-2020, 05:01 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
        Your Dharma's chosen Virtue rolls off against your P'oh -- both rolls are the difficulty of your Willpower; so the knife cuts both ways. Yeah, could fail or botch your virtue roll--but your P'oh could also fail or botch its roll. If it super duper worries you, you could always prioritize keeping your Dharma's virtue higher than your P'oh. If you're a Devil Tiger, I mean, it is what it is lol. Regardless, I'd rather be making these rolls to get from Dharma 5 to 6, than to be an 8th gen (or higher) playing the insanely dangerous game of hunting and diablerizing a 7th gen (or lower), and then have to deal with the fact that that vampire probably had allies; what I've done is super illegal; it's gonna be hard to hide it for the next year.
        Even if you keep your Dharma's Virtue higher, well, you know about how the freakish probabilities of botching work, right? It might actually hurt you. The best you can do is a coin flip.

        As a side note, if you're going to put an h into the po to romanize it, then per Simplified Wade, it goes in place of the aspirant mark, as pho.

        Your positing a pretty bizarre situation--how did this Kue-jin come to have this insanely high Willpower with such a low Dharma? Who is this person who bought their WP to 10 (and the ST that allowed it), despite having this low-ass Dharma and (presumably) dismally low virtues? Having said that, again, Willpower 10 (dumb as it would be to have under the circumstances you've described) equally acts as a barrier to the P'oh.
        Because they were the kind of cantankerous, never say die devil born to humanity who battered their way out of hell? It takes a minimum of Willpower 5 to be Gui Ren (another chargen issue that really needed to be addressed, since it requires freebie points to play this character type), and a lot of antagonists from The 1000 Hells are really nasty, so it really shouldn't take any kind of convoluted story to have starting Gui Ren character with Willpower 10. And, even in being a barrier to the Demon, it still hampers enlightenment.

        But you can still get up only slightly close to Willpower 10 and still have difficult results. If the game didn't love its Rule of 1 so much, it might not be so bad, but it just had to be like Shadowrun with D10s and also more brutal punishment mechanics.

        If we're going to bemoan the math, then let's not be loosee in our use of math terms--under no circumstance do the Disciplines cost twice as much. At most, compared to a Kindred's in-clan disciplines, they cost 60% more. It's not even fair to say "almost twice," if you consider that 60% is far closer to being "half again as much" than it is to being "twice as much". On top of that, the difference between out-of-clans and Kue-jin Disciplines is just 14%. Sure, it's more. But in neither instance is it twice as much--and given the fact that any given Kindred only has 3 Disciplines they're buying at x5, the overwhelming majority of the Kindred v. Kue-jin cost comparisons you're making are going to be that 14% number. Nowhere near your "twice".
        The math still sucks on toast, no matter which way you slice it. And Demon Arts pull from a pool that's sharply limited unless you let your Demon have free rein.

        That also means there's little or no territorial gate keeping about disciplines. Any given Kue-jin having any given assortment of Disciplines is never going to be necessarily weird--as opposed to Kindred, where if you tell the average the V:tM player that your character in your home game has Temporis, Setite Sorcery, and Quietus... uncharitable assumptions will be made, to say the least.

        As I've already said, you're playing real fast and loose with the math here.
        I'm confident that the botching mechanics more than make up for it. Also, having to pay from the limited pool of Demon Art fuel to soak aggravated damage until you get way, way higher into other Disciplines.

        There are other Kue-jin Disciplines that can help to mitigate Dominate. There are no Kindred disciplines (unless there's some elder level discipline, or a combo) that have anything for Dominate; you just need to be lower gen than the person (okay, so I guess you can be a Thaumaturge with a very particular level of the Path of Blood--super common). Needless to say, Kindred don't have anything for Obligation (and the third level works on everyone present without eye contact). Say what you will about the P'oh resistance to Dominate; every Kue-jin gets it right out of the box (which is important because it means that every Kue-jin has it), and it's a hell of a lot more than what Kindred get. I mean, if you're facing down a social stat monster who just gave you the ol' "sleep!"/"cease!"/"surrender!" (or whatever your preferred one-word command), would you rather just not have shit for that, or to make a roll at diff 9 using literally any one of your stats so you have even the off-chance of flummoxing your opponent. I'll take the long-shot over certain defeat any day of the week.
        I already covered how ineffective the Po is for this. At difficulty 9, it's going to botch rather frequently. Your expected success rate is 0.1 successes per dot. So, one in ten times per dot of Po, it might work!

        Just buy some Hun, my dude. The point of my saying that even the Kue-jin with Hun 1 may pierce Obf or Chimer with their Dharma is that every single Kue-jin has this stat, and therefore every single Kue-jin comes equipped with the basic ability to pierce Kindred illusions; some Kindred got nothing; not even Auspex 1.
        If a character started with Hun 1, they're probably not the type to exercise it all that often. Just re-read the Stagger Li sample character from Devil-Tigers again.

        Maybe because there's something to be said for the fact that the operation of the game's mechanics is such that the player has to be more strategic about when, whether, and by how much, to raise certain stats (as opposed to other games where it's like 'buy it if you can!') doesn't make this all nonsensical. The fact that some stats work on a seesaw means that there's more strategy to buy-ups than inconsiderately buying literally everything as high as possible as soon as possible.
        Which is all nice, but WW games also look down on you for not doing things "in character" as much as possible, or at least did in the 90s. There's no strategic scheme for maximizing benefit and minimizing risk under this scheme; it would have been derided as "roll playing".

        Oh, sorry. Even putting that in quotes made my eyes roll out of my head. Gotta go find where they went off to.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

          Boddhisattvas, per the real world concept, delay become Buddhas and entering Nirvana so that they can guide others toward it. So, while the ideal goal is to get everyone to ascend, a fair number should be sticking around a bit longer (a millennium or two more is nothing on the astronomical counts of years between ages) and not just leaving.
          I seem to remember that there were more older Wan Kuei around in the past, a but a lot of them decided to start ascending once the 5th Age arrived and their bodies and powers started twisting more, many of their old rituals and rites stopped working, etc, so there aren't as many around as there used to be. I also recall that in the Final Nights, a lot of higher dharma Wan Kuei are trying everything they can to complete their Dharma so they can ascend before the 6th Age arrives, because nobody wants to be around when that happens, other than a few suicidal Devil Tigers.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

            Boddhisattvas, per the real world concept, delay become Buddhas and entering Nirvana so that they can guide others toward it. So, while the ideal goal is to get everyone to ascend, a fair number should be sticking around a bit longer (a millennium or two more is nothing on the astronomical counts of years between ages) and not just leaving.

            Yes, Dharma 9 is that. Dharma 10 is ascension. That there are not many who spend signficant periods of time as guides because of temperment and that having hundreds of them might not actually offer much of anything?

            That kindred have these monsters trapped on the Earth for Eternity is... more a statement on how horrific it is?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Lian View Post


              Yes, Dharma 9 is that. Dharma 10 is ascension. That there are not many who spend signficant periods of time as guides because of temperment and that having hundreds of them might not actually offer much of anything?

              That kindred have these monsters trapped on the Earth for Eternity is... more a statement on how horrific it is?
              While the game settled into using boddhisattva as a term for 9 and arhat for 10, the chart in KotE technically says boddhisattva/arhat for 10.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                Even if you keep your Dharma's Virtue higher, well, you know about how the freakish probabilities of botching work, right? It might actually hurt you. The best you can do is a coin flip.
                Yeah, but it's a coin flip the parameters to which I control--and I still like it better than hunting down a lower gen vampire to eat, and then dodging claws and assassins for who knows how long.

                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                As a side note, if you're going to put an h into the po to romanize it, then per Simplified Wade, it goes in place of the aspirant mark, as pho.
                I just didn't realize there isn't an 'h' it. I was just spelling "d'oh!" with a "P", I guess. Whoopsie doodle!

                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                Because they were the kind of cantankerous, never say die devil born to humanity who battered their way out of hell? It takes a minimum of Willpower 5 to be Gui Ren (another chargen issue that really needed to be addressed, since it requires freebie points to play this character type), and a lot of antagonists from The 1000 Hells are really nasty, so it really shouldn't take any kind of convoluted story to have starting Gui Ren character with Willpower 10. And, even in being a barrier to the Demon, it still hampers enlightenment.
                I think that's a great argument to make to your ST for constantly buying up WP, but as we've established, it's probably not a good idea for reasons; and also, if it were really that easy, wouldn't it be more common? Off the top of my head, I don't know that've I've seen more than one (if that) Kue-jin stat block with WP 10.

                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                The math still sucks on toast, no matter which way you slice it. And Demon Arts pull from a pool that's sharply limited unless you let your Demon have free rein.
                Okay, let's say that I were to agree that the math is sucky compared to Kindred--it's still nowhere near as sucky as you were saying. I'd way rather have a 14% (or even 60%) interest rate on a loan than a 100% interest rate, you know?

                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                I'm confident that the botching mechanics more than make up for it. Also, having to pay from the limited pool of Demon Art fuel to soak aggravated damage until you get way, way higher into other Disciplines.
                The P'o can botch too, homie. You gotta keep that in mind; you go to make that roll, and you could botch, sure, but that asshole demon might botch too, or instead.

                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                I already covered how ineffective the Po is for this. At difficulty 9, it's going to botch rather frequently. Your expected success rate is 0.1 successes per dot. So, one in ten times per dot of Po, it might work!
                Something is still better than nothing. I'll take an anything percent change to resist over a 0% chance.

                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                If a character started with Hun 1, they're probably not the type to exercise it all that often. Just re-read the Stagger Li sample character from Devil-Tigers again.
                I already explained that I don't think it would be wise to start with a Hun 1 of one, and that I only said that to point out that even the worst Hun still gives you this other power. Having said that--and as if you don't know this already--Hun is pretty fantastic; it keeps your P'o in check, lets you talk to spirits, reduces the difficulty of your perception rolls. It's pulling A LOT of duty.

                Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                Which is all nice, but WW games also look down on you for not doing things "in character" as much as possible, or at least did in the 90s. There's no strategic scheme for maximizing benefit and minimizing risk under this scheme; it would have been derided as "roll playing".
                I think you're saying it's a tougher WW game than most to mix-max twink out. I kind of appreciate it!



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                • #23
                  Personally I hated the whole you have to be above this level of power to beat my Inviso or Illusion. I feel it should be with any type of super sense you have a variable chance of piercing the deception. Like Garou use Heightened Senses gift plus Wolf form make their senses similar to Auspex Heightened sense with 3 dots of Auspex.

                  Like High levels Obfuscate seem to be either you bump into someone that is immune to Obfuscate because of Faith or a MacGuffin of Innocence, but nobody but Archmages have ranks of whatever perception piercing powers they need.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                    Personally I hated the whole you have to be above this level of power to beat my Inviso or Illusion. I feel it should be with any type of super sense you have a variable chance of piercing the deception. Like Garou use Heightened Senses gift plus Wolf form make their senses similar to Auspex Heightened sense with 3 dots of Auspex.

                    Like High levels Obfuscate seem to be either you bump into someone that is immune to Obfuscate because of Faith or a MacGuffin of Innocence, but nobody but Archmages have ranks of whatever perception piercing powers they need.
                    I had to houserule Mage Mind Shields a lot to make them work in some (to me) intellectually honest way with things like Obfuscate, when you consider how impressive and powerful someone with Mind 5 is supposed to be.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post

                      I had to houserule Mage Mind Shields a lot to make them work in some (to me) intellectually honest way with things like Obfuscate, when you consider how impressive and powerful someone with Mind 5 is supposed to be.
                      Exactly, I would prefer powers work more with how good you are at something rather then a flat oh your a Garou Rank five so you have rank five senses, or oh Obfuscate 6 so only archmages can pierce it... naaaah! I have it animal form senses temporarily boost your Auspex when piercing illusions/Obf because Auspex lowers difficulty by your rating in perception and I take that is the power that pierces illusions. and Wolves can say have a -2 for scent rolls or a bats -3 for hearing.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
                        Yeah, but it's a coin flip the parameters to which I control--and I still like it better than hunting down a lower gen vampire to eat, and then dodging claws and assassins for who knows how long.
                        If you increase your dice pool, though, you might be screwing yourself over - that's the freakish mechanics of botching at work. So if you go in thinking that you should play a Dharmic concept to the hilt, you might end up as a Flesh Eater. This seems to be a kind of perverse incentive that the design didn't actually intend.

                        I just didn't realize there isn't an 'h' it. I was just spelling "d'oh!" with a "P", I guess. Whoopsie doodle!
                        It's actually read so that it rhymes with law, though, not Homer Simpson's catch phrase. That would be pou.

                        I think that's a great argument to make to your ST for constantly buying up WP, but as we've established, it's probably not a good idea for reasons; and also, if it were really that easy, wouldn't it be more common? Off the top of my head, I don't know that've I've seen more than one (if that) Kue-jin stat block with WP 10.
                        It still stands that increasing a stat that the game considers absolutely vital to operation hampers a central experience to the game.

                        Okay, let's say that I were to agree that the math is sucky compared to Kindred--it's still nowhere near as sucky as you were saying. I'd way rather have a 14% (or even 60%) interest rate on a loan than a 100% interest rate, you know?
                        The cost isn't touching on how limited the resources for Demon Arts are. Or how some Disciplines require some pretty disadvantageous Imbalances to use effectively, since fuel is divided between two different gauges, and trying to tank up beyond capacity on one runs the risk of having all of the excess explode.

                        The P'o can botch too, homie. You gotta keep that in mind; you go to make that roll, and you could botch, sure, but that asshole demon might botch too, or instead.
                        The consequences of the Po botching are trivial for the Demon - it just doesn't get control then and there. The consequences of botching for the Hun are potentially disastrous. Game theory suggests that the Hun is the loser here.

                        Something is still better than nothing. I'll take an anything percent change to resist over a 0% chance.
                        Except that you'll likely end up botching at such high difficulty. The consequences are not detailed, but one presumes that it isn't good.

                        I already explained that I don't think it would be wise to start with a Hun 1 of one, and that I only said that to point out that even the worst Hun still gives you this other power. Having said that--and as if you don't know this already--Hun is pretty fantastic; it keeps your P'o in check, lets you talk to spirits, reduces the difficulty of your perception rolls. It's pulling A LOT of duty.
                        That brings up the other problem about how it's impossible to create a character without spending huge chunks of freebie points. Every other game manages to have self-contained chargen where the freebie points come into play afterward, but for some reason, not this one.

                        I think you're saying it's a tougher WW game than most to mix-max twink out. I kind of appreciate it!
                        It's not really a compliment in this case, because it ends up bringing the entire thing crashing down. Characters are left unable to fulfill concepts, the game can't play core ideas straight, and you'll have to patch the rules on your own.
                        Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 04-21-2020, 02:56 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

                          If you increase your dice pool, though, you might be screwing yourself over - that's the freakish mechanics of botching at work. So if you go in thinking that you should play a Dharmic concept to the hilt, you might end up as a Flesh Eater. This seems to be a kind of perverse incentive that the design didn't actually intend.
                          If you start the game with WP10, yes, this is very likely; if you start the game with WP6 or 7, and have Dharma of 1, the odds favor a fail more than a botch, and are way against a botch.This based on the tables at the link. If you wait until you have Dharma 3 or 4 before buying up to WP8, again, there's always the risk--but I'll still take it over going on an elder hunt.

                          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                          It still stands that increasing a stat that the game considers absolutely vital to operation hampers a central experience to the game.
                          I think this is offset by the fact that it doesn't cost anything to raise, and doesn't have a set pre-determined amount of time you have toat any given level before going up. In exchange for not spending XP, you literally and figuratively roll the dice--but a dice roll you basically control all parts of; your pool, the opposed pool, and the difficulty. As designed, I think you're clearly supposed to fail from time to time--and if you go into Shadow Soul, that's just part of the narrative tension of the game.

                          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                          The cost isn't touching on how limited the resources for Demon Arts are. Or how some Disciplines require some pretty disadvantageous Imbalances to use effectively, since fuel is divided between two different gauges, and trying to tank up beyond capacity on one runs the risk of having all of the excess explode.
                          There are also Disciplines to help you manage it all, convert points from one to another, etc. There's a lot of book keeping in this game, and you're constantly looking at your gauged, granted. It's a very advanced game from a mechanical control standpoint--but it's also such an obvious feature of the game that it's not the sort of thing that would sneak up on you. If you start playing a KoE game, it's hard to believe you wouldn't be properly apprised of the labor involved. Obviously this kind of thing doesn't sound fun to you.

                          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                          The consequences of the Po botching are trivial for the Demon - it just doesn't get control then and there. The consequences of botching for the Hun are potentially disastrous. Game theory suggests that the Hun is the loser here.
                          That's just the game--the game favors the P'o on a long enough timeline, just like regular V:tM favors the Beast, and Wraith favors oblivion. The setting implies that there's a wayyyyyyyyy higher percentage of vampires (east and west) that lose themselves to their darker selves, compared to the number who make it out (i.e., reach enlightenment, or Golconda). The Beast/P'o have forever to corrupt the vampire, and just have to get lucky a handful of times; the vampire is stuck fighting this thing forever, and the law averages says that on a long enough timeline, they're gonna lose.

                          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                          Except that you'll likely end up botching at such high difficulty. The consequences are not detailed, but one presumes that it isn't good.
                          Worse than being put to sleep by my enemy in the middle of combat, and being utterly at their mercy? What's worse than final death?

                          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                          That brings up the other problem about how it's impossible to create a character without spending huge chunks of freebie points. Every other game manages to have self-contained chargen where the freebie points come into play afterward, but for some reason, not this one.
                          It is what it is. You could always start with a high ass Hun--of course then it'll be harder to access Demon Chi... give and take, my man! This is an advanced game! Nothing is simple!

                          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post
                          It's not really a compliment in this case, because it ends up bringing the entire thing crashing down. Characters are left unable to fulfill concepts, the game can't play core ideas straight, and you'll have to patch the rules on your own.
                          IWould I house rule some things? Sure, I house rule things in every game I play, but you pain a picture of this game being so broken it's unplayable, and I not only don't agree, but also don't think that's the generally accepted consensus. Some people will look at this and think it's a complicated mess of systems working against one another, and generally resisting optimization. Some people will look at this and see challenge they'd probably find rewarding to learn and master.



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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
                            If you start the game with WP10, yes, this is very likely; if you start the game with WP6 or 7, and have Dharma of 1, the odds favor a fail more than a botch, and are way against a botch.This based on the tables at the link. If you wait until you have Dharma 3 or 4 before buying up to WP8, again, there's always the risk--but I'll still take it over going on an elder hunt.
                            The exact moment that you buy up WP to as low as 8 is the moment that you start to face some frequent backslides. If you were at a higher Dharma level, that just means it takes a bit longer before what is essentially an inevitable terminator clock brings you back down to Dharma 0. Reducing the botch frequency is possible for Chi Virtue Dharmas (at the cost of cultivating an extreme permanent Imbalance), but not practical for Soul Virtue Dharmas (you're either unable to use wp for successes or risking shadow soul challenges every night), and if you rely on an average, you're screwed.

                            I think this is offset by the fact that it doesn't cost anything to raise, and doesn't have a set pre-determined amount of time you have toat any given level before going up. In exchange for not spending XP, you literally and figuratively roll the dice--but a dice roll you basically control all parts of; your pool, the opposed pool, and the difficulty. As designed, I think you're clearly supposed to fail from time to time--and if you go into Shadow Soul, that's just part of the narrative tension of the game.
                            Some concepts can sound nice as a pitch, but need a lot of work to actually represent well. While enlightenment can be quite capricious and understanding not easily won, this is more like a party game made to garner laughs than the intended horror game. I could compare it to dealing with similarly capricious dungeons from earlier editions of D&D. Progression needs something a bit more thought out, and balanced against some other Trait.

                            There are also Disciplines to help you manage it all, convert points from one to another, etc.
                            None of which you'll have for many, many chronicles. That Discipline cost, again.

                            There's a lot of book keeping in this game, and you're constantly looking at your gauged, granted. It's a very advanced game from a mechanical control standpoint--but it's also such an obvious feature of the game that it's not the sort of thing that would sneak up on you. If you start playing a KoE game, it's hard to believe you wouldn't be properly apprised of the labor involved. Obviously this kind of thing doesn't sound fun to you.
                            Make the book-keeping interesting, and it won't feel like it. Make it feel like some motions that you go through, you get this.

                            That's just the game--the game favors the P'o on a long enough timeline, just like regular V:tM favors the Beast, and Wraith favors oblivion. The setting implies that there's a wayyyyyyyyy higher percentage of vampires (east and west) that lose themselves to their darker selves, compared to the number who make it out (i.e., reach enlightenment, or Golconda). The Beast/P'o have forever to corrupt the vampire, and just have to get lucky a handful of times; the vampire is stuck fighting this thing forever, and the law averages says that on a long enough timeline, they're gonna lose.
                            Usually, you make the temptation to fall a choice instead of a roll. When some course of action seems more convenient, say, or you're desperate. Not an outright "whoops, looks like you're Dharma 0 again!"

                            Worse than being put to sleep by my enemy in the middle of combat, and being utterly at their mercy? What's worse than final death?
                            Never ask your inner Demon that question...

                            And it never gets better from raising your Po, either. This is not something I feel to be a deep truth to the game; to be clear, I think of this being that much of a liability to be evidence that this is the playtest version of the game. We can catch all of these distortions and think of alternate systems, given the past 22 years it's been out in the wild, and someone probably should overhaul it.

                            It is what it is. You could always start with a high ass Hun--of course then it'll be harder to access Demon Chi... give and take, my man! This is an advanced game! Nothing is simple!
                            Capping Empathy makes a lot of concepts unworkable, too. Can your character read people well? You'll need to sink at least 6 freebies into raising your Hun. The roll to use Demon Arts, incidentally, is probably the least annoying roadblocks among everything mentioned, because it's just a roll against a difficulty of the Virtue. And after that, you won't have anything

                            IWould I house rule some things? Sure, I house rule things in every game I play, but you pain a picture of this game being so broken it's unplayable, and I not only don't agree, but also don't think that's the generally accepted consensus. Some people will look at this and think it's a complicated mess of systems working against one another, and generally resisting optimization. Some people will look at this and see challenge they'd probably find rewarding to learn and master.
                            You could consider it that way, but people with olfactory fatigue might also not realize how badly a room that they pass by all the time stinks. Optimization isn't even the problem; it feels like it's undermining most of what it wants to do.

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