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System or occult concept similar to Yin/Yang, Hun/Po?

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  • System or occult concept similar to Yin/Yang, Hun/Po?

    So KotE has a crossover unified Yin/Yang energy, Hun/Po moral system which tries to include all sorts of splats. Despite its feasibility, do you know any system or occult concept which resembles it?

    Does any other WoD game system resemble this, especially Yin/Yang, opposite energy?
    Does any other similar occult concept which is not that orientalism exist? Like Mana, maybe there are something like Scarlet/Ebon Mana?

    IN FACT: Yeah, I’m making a HtR game which tries to bring back the old Wan Xian, so I consulted DtF, HtR and KotE, trying to melt all of them down. I find Yin/Yang system is a good idea to include all splats and represent their traits, but it is too orientalism. So I want to find an alternative

    Thanks!

    EDIT: System or concept which is not that REGIONAL, but those come from Ancient Greece/Rome or any other Western occult are welcomed
    Last edited by Rock113; 05-19-2020, 10:20 PM.

  • #2
    Have you checked the systems in Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom?


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    • #3
      Originally posted by Alqamar Alaswad View Post
      Have you checked the systems in Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom?
      See topic which I have edited

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
        So KotE has a crossover unified Yin/Yang energy, Hun/Po moral system which tries to include all sorts of splats. Despite its feasibility, do you know any system or occult concept which resembles it?

        EDIT: System or concept which is not that REGIONAL, but those come from Ancient Greece/Rome or any other Western occult are welcomed
        Excuse me, but the Aye/Orun in Kindred of the Ebony... system is not REGIONAL, but CULTURAL. In fact, Ventrue may live for centuries in the Ebony Kingdom (WoD Africa) and they would still have Conscience, Self-Control and Humanity or Paths.

        I would ask you, respectfully again, to read it if you haven't.

        It doesn't come from Ancient Greece/Rome, but I'm seriously thinking about adapting it for my project on 'generic' Hungry Dead across the world, the Strigoi.

        Nevertheless, I don't know a lot (or anything at all) about dualism in Greece/Rome, and this is an excellent incentive to begin...



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        • #5
          Originally posted by Alqamar Alaswad View Post
          Excuse me, but the Aye/Orun in Kindred of the Ebony... system is not REGIONAL, but CULTURAL.
          Sorry, I originally mean this occult concept or system shouldn't be recognized culturally or regionally just through its words. For example, you will think about East when talking about Yin/Yang or Hun/Po, Egypt when talking about Ka/Ba, that's it


          Originally posted by Alqamar Alaswad View Post
          I would ask you, respectfully again, to read it if you haven't.

          Thanks I will

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
            Sorry, I originally mean this occult concept or system shouldn't be recognized culturally or regionally just through its words. For example, you will think about East when talking about Yin/Yang or Hun/Po, Egypt when talking about Ka/Ba, that's it



            Thanks I will

            Ouch... that's pretty difficult... even something like Humanity / Bestiality has cultural overtones, because you are using English...
            Ok, time to visit the library... or the Internet archives...


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            • #7
              There are a lot of interesting Dualities to use, like the Juicy Heaven and Earth duality of Laibon. There could also be the Seelie Unseelie divide. And you could probably hammer something out with the Sephiroth vs Qlippoth. We also have Rage vs Gnosis.


              It is a time for great deeds!

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              • #8
                I'm going to begin my research with this website...
                https://www.britannica.com/topic/dua...igious-dualism


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                • #9
                  As far as Yin and Yang, there are a few things that are "kinda-sorta" along those lines, but not perfect 1:1 matchups.

                  Ancient Greece used to have the idea of Olympic vs Chthonic. Olympic was, generally speaking, very oriented toward the idea of the sky and order, involving the modern and orderly (relatively speaking) and civilized (again, relatively speaking) Olympic gods, especially Zeus and Apollo, among others. It also tended to be associated with the elements of Air and Fire, and with the masculine. Chthonic, on the other hand, was very earth oriented and a little more chaotic, mainly involving a lot of rural traditions about fertility and death gods (including Hades and Dionysus), some of which predate the development of the Olympians. The elements of Earth and Water tended to be associated with it, as is the feminine.
                  Certain aspects of this would carry over into some of German philosopher Fredrick Nietzsche's writings about the idea of Apollonian and Dionysian conflict in both classic and Shakespearian tragedies, and also into the modern world. Anthropologist Ruth Benedict apparently expands on this idea as a method of cultural classification, with one valuing restraint and modesty and the other excess and ostentatiousness. Albert Szent-Gyorgyi applied it to the world of science in general, with Apollonian approaches refining established ideas to better clarity and perfections while Dionysian approaches try to expand the fringes and frontiers of knowledge. Camilla Paglia, in her book Sexual Persona, argues that this Apollonian vs Dionysian dynamic, representing the struggle between rationality and emotion, is at the heart of almost all art and culture.

                  Classic Persia developed the philosophy/religion of Manichaeism, between a good and spiritual world of light and an evil and material world of darkness. (This happened around the 3rd century AD, drawing heavily on earlier Gnostic beliefs and aspects of Zoroastrianism.) It had a strong influence on the Medieval European Cathars, and certain branches of the faith survived in China until late in the Ming Dynasty.

                  Certain European concepts about the seasons, their meanings, and cycles can also sometimes serve in a similar way to thinking about Yin/Yang as a constant cycle of forces and symbolism. To some degree, the idea of Seelie and Unseelie courts for the Fair Folk reflect this.

                  As far as Hun and Po, Wraith uses the Psyche vs Shadow idea derived from certain aspects of late 19th and early 20th century psychology. There's also certain Ancient Greek influences on it. Plato divided the soul into three parts, Lagos (reason), Thymos (emotion), and Eros (desire). Jewish Kabbalism divides the soul into several parts, two of which are Nefesh (the natural instinct that drives all animals) and Ruach (intellect and morality). The Chronicles of Darkness Virtue and Vice set up also does some similar things to the Hun and Po dynamic.


                  What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                  Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                  • #10
                    No One of Consequence learnt new things. Thank you.

                    A lot of european stuff has concepts like duality, but it's more along the lines of "Body and mind, matter and spirit". While the east might say "yang is good, yin is bad" hermeticism says "god is good, man is ignorant of god, therefore man cannot be good" but it also places emphasis on Theurgy:

                    There are two different types of magic, according to Giovanni Pico della Mirandola's
                    Apology, completely opposite of each other. The first is Goëtia (Greek: γοητεια), black magic reliant upon an alliance with evil spirits (i.e., demons). The second is Theurgy, divine magic reliant upon an alliance with divine spirits (i.e., angels, archangels, gods)


                    Maybe, a westerner can learn both Goetia and theurgy, and have two different pools of magical resources (like rage/gnosis or hun/po or yin/yang or whatever) though I suspect they're most likely to learn one or the other. Actually, I think they're most likely to unify the two in WoD. A mage works with their avatar. A vampire works with their beast. I know mages can practice infernalism without becoming nephandi, but I'm not sure of the details, but I do know vampires can learn Dark Thaumaturgy and the levels of Dark Thaumaturgy, i think, work on top of regular thaumaturgy. They synthesize. Mortal mages don't have two pools of energy to my knowledge, though I suppose you could imagine some kinfolk/kinain hedge wizard mage ghoul...

                    A little thing that I found out:
                    The Chinese largely gave up on their alchemy. The west did not, not until they had science. Chinese alchemy followed the Dao, it was their only philosophy and was well known. Western alchemists used hermeticism, which is a clusterfuck of "All theologies are right". Maybe by wanting to seperate forces into ying and yang, the chinese found themselves up the wrong tree, while the west looking for synthasis among the chaos could continue to move forward. (It also helps that Hermeticism/western alchemy was occult whilst chinese were generally rather open about things, so western alchemists were always preoccupied with rediscovering things whilst the chinese had nothing to do but...)
                    Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 05-21-2020, 10:14 AM.


                    For ease of reference: "VTM" means every edition that isn't V5, because V5... it's a very different product, and I don't want to write "Pre-V5" because that's lame and I'm lazy.

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                    • #11
                      Those binaries are characteristically Chinese. In Greece and India you get four-element theory and concepts of male vs. female. One Greek philosopher (Empedocles) also posits that love and strife are the fundamental impulses behind all phenomena (probably better translated as attraction and repulsion). For the atomists it was substance and void. Greco-Roman thought also tends to regard the animating spirit as distinct from the soul that is the seat of consciousness, and the former dissipates into the world, whereas the latter might go on to a different destination, which is rather like hun & po. This multiple-soul concept is very common in ancient societies around the world.

                      Premodern occultism that isn’t Chinese or Indian is basically Greek (but often masquerading as pseudo-Egyptian or pseudo-Babylonian). Those are the places I’d look. A lot of Indian Tantra is Buddhist and therefore not so much about the dualities, but there are a few groups of threes or sixes I could come up with.

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                      • #12
                        It isn’t Yang is Good and Yin is bad, that’s a misconception found in children’s cartoons that broach the subject.

                        And Zoarastrianism has some good duality symbolisms with light and dark and good and evil.

                        Gnosticism can have the base Material World of the Demiurge and the Supernal World of the Gnostic Supreme God.


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #13
                          Mummy had its Ba (the animating force), Ka (the soul that becomes a wraith) and Sekhim (magical power) rated by points with direct mechanics

                          It also has the Khat (body), Sahu (the god-body... part of the Ka mechanically in-game), Ab (integrity virtue), Khu (essentially their aura), Ren (true name used in certain magics) and Khabit (the shadow soul... close equivalent of the Po though without any real power over a Mummy).

                          There’s also a more than passing similarly between the Wraith’s Psyche (Hun) and Shadow (Po) and to Pathos (Yin, as creatures of the shadowlands they don’t really do Yang).

                          Also notable is that KotE mechanically associates the KotE virtues with default western ones... Yin (self-control), Yang (courage), Hun (conscience) and Po (the strength of the Beast... basically measuring Humanity in reverse).

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
                            Mummy had its Ba (the animating force), Ka (the soul that becomes a wraith) and Sekhim (magical power) rated by points with direct mechanics

                            It also has the Khat (body), Sahu (the god-body... part of the Ka mechanically in-game), Ab (integrity virtue), Khu (essentially their aura), Ren (true name used in certain magics) and Khabit (the shadow soul... close equivalent of the Po though without any real power over a Mummy).

                            There’s also a more than passing similarly between the Wraith’s Psyche (Hun) and Shadow (Po) and to Pathos (Yin, as creatures of the shadowlands they don’t really do Yang).

                            Also notable is that KotE mechanically associates the KotE virtues with default western ones... Yin (self-control), Yang (courage), Hun (conscience) and Po (the strength of the Beast... basically measuring Humanity in reverse).
                            That's probably the biggest tripping point on the Hun and Po, really. The Po in particular isn't supposed to be a monster waiting to get out; it's the seat of emotions. If Wraith were closer to the target, it might set things up with the Po covering all of the Passions (both what would be those of the Psyche and Shadow), with the Hun covering the Fetters (again, all of them, even for what would be the Shadow). Of course, the Po also might just fade away after 49 days, so there's that to contend with as well with alternate ghosting setups.

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