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  • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
    My disagreements over Children of Gaia isn't a case of a leftist closing ranks, I'm a right winger actually. In fact, I agree that a lot of Werewolf material over the years has been obnoxiously left leaning and that all too often left leaning writers are sympathizing with the werewolf faction that they are writing about and it is coloring their writing. All the more reason that we try to divorce the ideologies of the Garou from real world modern human (notably leftist American) ideologies. In part, my objection to CoG being SJW's or Antifa is that one thing that sets them apart from so many other Tribes is that they are less judgemental, more tolerant, more peaceful, less violent than so many other Tribes. Making them left wing extremists not only ties them too closely to human politics but undermines one of the things that I thought allowed them to stand out. I wont say that there aren't WW books that portray them this way, but I would disagree with that too.
    To be sure, I have read the Children of Gaia Tribebook, albeit a long time ago. There isn’t any such mention of the sort of ‘leftist’ groups being mentioned here in it. It’s a pacifist group and one that is expressly tolerant as a value. Whether this constitutes ‘leftist’, I dunno, but I find the left/right dichotomy so ill-defined these days it is something of a moot point in any case.

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    • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
      My disagreements over Children of Gaia isn't a case of a leftist closing ranks, I'm a right winger actually. In fact, I agree that a lot of Werewolf material over the years has been obnoxiously left leaning and that all too often left leaning writers are sympathizing with the werewolf faction that they are writing about and it is coloring their writing. All the more reason that we try to divorce the ideologies of the Garou from real world modern human (notably leftist American) ideologies. In part, my objection to CoG being SJW's or Antifa is that one thing that sets them apart from so many other Tribes is that they are less judgemental, more tolerant, more peaceful, less violent than so many other Tribes. Making them left wing extremists not only ties them too closely to human politics but undermines one of the things that I thought allowed them to stand out. I wont say that there aren't WW books that portray them this way, but I would disagree with that too.

      This is a fair counter and I can respect your point of view. but I there's an inescapable degree of hypocrisy when "Gaia's Warriors" are less judgemental, more tolerant, more peaceful, and less violent, and it's something to be celebrated. How are warriors that are literally fueled by their Rage so clear headed. They truly must be unicorns!
      Bur then I think of the preachy, intollerant, embarassing and highly vocal left in the real world who do seem to get off on their rage, (In case it needs to be said: I hold very left wing views) and they seem to capture the essence of a tribe more than these hypothetical unicorns, especially since, if the Children of Gaia worked so well with high functioning tolerance and peace, Why wouldn't they completely dominate the nation? Quite simply, they must be flawed.

      Also, those mortal views aren't completely american. The 'Aborigine/Aboriginal' thing was something I got into with a group of australians who were absolutely horrified I'd used the wrong term. I imagine whatever locality the CoG is raised in effects the tribe on a local level. American crazy doesn't infect the rest of the world... that badly (though americans are far too influential)



      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
        Bur then I think of the preachy, intollerant, embarassing and highly vocal left in the real world who do seem to get off on their rage, (In case it needs to be said: I hold very left wing views)
        Is this a suggestion of a case in point?

        Comment


        • ....

          sure


          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

          Comment


          • I don’t think Werewolf is intended to reflect current political dichotomies (a dichotomy means two things that are directly opposed). I think individual Garou may hold those views, but the tribes as a whole are more concerned with supernatural politics and fighting the Wyrm/Weaver. Also, arguing about rl politics gives me a headache. For real.


            The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

            Comment


            • Every single post you put up is about your real world political grievances.

              Comment


              • You mean him right?


                The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

                Comment


                • Obviously he can't mean me, I have near a thousand posts to my name! It'd be pretty impressive If I could have every one of them address my real life political concerns.

                  Reading through W1e for the first time; the Tribes have always had portions effected by human politics; The Get have their Nazis, the Children of Gaia had their radicals who moved within mortal activism groups and wore deadhead fashion (Nowadays no-doubt they'll be pink haired hipsters). Do I think all CoG hate nuclear power and put macro attention onto micro agressions? No, but the CoG that do fit in that category are going to weight the tribe down, and there'll be plenty of middle of the road CoG that don't go all in on the mortal politics but tacitly support the ones that do.


                  Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                    You mean him right?
                    Yes, and I apologize for not being clear. I'd quote him, but he's been on my block list for nearly a year.

                    Comment


                    • Honestly I think trying to entirely disentangle the Garou Nation from human politics isn't the best idea for the gameline.

                      Yes the Garou Nation should have its own unique political interests and focus and compared to the vast majority of human societies the Garou Nation are a collective of various political and societal throw-backs.

                      That said though, the discussion of allegory aside - and that is distinctly a vast spectrum of discussions about how to use the Garou for a variety of allegorical purposes - one of the reasons I say this is that the Garou are still human, even if only in part. They are half human and half wolf, with both sides needing to be taken into consideration.

                      Even if the majority of Garou were kenning homid raised within the Nation, the majority of those characters are probably going to end up having some level of connection with human society. It's inevitable, even before you take lost cubs into the equation. Humans are social animals and a great deal of garou activity requires at least partial exposure to the human world, so it's inevitable that human society and politics will bleed over into them.

                      Trying to entirely distinguish them from human politics takes something away imo, especially from several tribes who have a strong thematic and narrative connection and intestest with human issues. The Fianna are a bit less then their flawed selves if they aren't struggling to keep their impressionable youths from fighting their kin's battles.

                      All that said, I agree that the gameline has disserved itself in the past with simplistic depictions of nuanced political issues, although I also don't think that a certain amount of bias is necessary a cardinal sin, particularly if it's acknowledged and taken in consideration by both the writers and the community.

                      Because ultimately some amount of political bias in the game is inevitable in my opinion, not just because of its 90s punk roots, but also because one of Werewolves platonic ideals can essentially be boiled down to 'environmentalists with superpowers'.

                      Yes that's reductionary, but it's not entirely wrong either and with that as a central premise of the game, some amount of leftist politics is inevitable imo.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                        I've heard of the fake haven thing before, but I never understood how it's supposed to work, how exactly are you supposed to trick them into a fake haven?
                        If an enemy has any chance of finding a Vampire's Haven, then they do it according to a scheme and methods that can be predicted, observed, and manipulated. A Vampire likely knows more about finding a Haven than any other persons.

                        Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                        and those that use the umbra can peek through the gauntlet to identify their targets

                        even if it worked, the only action you can take when you are being targetted by supernaturals is pack up and leave before the next sunrise,
                        any other action is a risk (since your targets have better ways of countering your attacks or retreat into the umbra which...you can't access),
                        and it would attract too much attention, something vampires can't afford because they rely on staying hidden
                        You make good points, but remember that Mages are extremely vulnerable to being targeted by Ghouls, or any mortals that a Vampire controls (in one way or another...Blood Bond, Dominate, Presence...) . You talk about how vulnerable Vampires are, yet something as simple as a band of thugs directed by Dominate (together some money and drugs given) is extremely dangerous to a Mage, due to threat of physical harm. Not to mention just how quickly Vampires can deal in person with any Mage (or Acolyte) they identify.

                        Also, note that Vampires also win out against Mages in regard to ease of acquiring servants. A Mage has to work for Acolytes and Consors being loyal to them, while it is extremely easy for Vampire to gain loyal servants.

                        Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                        fair enough,
                        although I'm unsure how one should feel about having to rely on an enemy's help to cover one's tracks
                        While some parts of the Technocracy are hostile to Vampires, I'd like to point that there are many Technocrats are prepared to cooperate with Vampires, especially with the Camarilla.
                        Last edited by Muad'Dib; 07-23-2020, 04:11 PM.

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                        • Back to an older topic related to werewolves, if I were in charge I would probably rebalance the game lines and put vampires and werewolves at about the same level regarding physical prowess and combat ability, including soaking aggravated damage with just Stamina like it was in 1st edition.

                          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post

                          This is a fair counter and I can respect your point of view. but I there's an inescapable degree of hypocrisy when "Gaia's Warriors" are less judgemental, more tolerant, more peaceful, and less violent, and it's something to be celebrated. How are warriors that are literally fueled by their Rage so clear headed. They truly must be unicorns!
                          Bur then I think of the preachy, intollerant, embarassing and highly vocal left in the real world who do seem to get off on their rage, (In case it needs to be said: I hold very left wing views) and they seem to capture the essence of a tribe more than these hypothetical unicorns, especially since, if the Children of Gaia worked so well with high functioning tolerance and peace, Why wouldn't they completely dominate the nation? Quite simply, they must be flawed.

                          Also, those mortal views aren't completely american. The 'Aborigine/Aboriginal' thing was something I got into with a group of australians who were absolutely horrified I'd used the wrong term. I imagine whatever locality the CoG is raised in effects the tribe on a local level. American crazy doesn't infect the rest of the world... that badly (though americans are far too influential)
                          I don't think that being peaceful and tolerant is necessarily a recipe to rule over all the other Tribes, especially when werewolf culture in general is hyper-conservative, violent, and intolerant and they are essentially in the middle of a war. I wouldn't want the CoG to be perfect, not that peace and tolerance is always better, but I would rather show their flaws by either failing to uphold their own tolerant standards or in being too naive in pursuing that agenda. Not that they are intolerant leftists. Well, not as a general trend among the Tribe, you could have an individual like that.

                          That sort of thing isn't strictly American, but it is a modern Western thing.


                          Originally posted by Gryffon15 View Post
                          Honestly I think trying to entirely disentangle the Garou Nation from human politics isn't the best idea for the gameline.

                          Yes the Garou Nation should have its own unique political interests and focus and compared to the vast majority of human societies the Garou Nation are a collective of various political and societal throw-backs.

                          That said though, the discussion of allegory aside - and that is distinctly a vast spectrum of discussions about how to use the Garou for a variety of allegorical purposes - one of the reasons I say this is that the Garou are still human, even if only in part. They are half human and half wolf, with both sides needing to be taken into consideration.

                          Even if the majority of Garou were kenning homid raised within the Nation, the majority of those characters are probably going to end up having some level of connection with human society. It's inevitable, even before you take lost cubs into the equation. Humans are social animals and a great deal of garou activity requires at least partial exposure to the human world, so it's inevitable that human society and politics will bleed over into them.

                          Trying to entirely distinguish them from human politics takes something away imo, especially from several tribes who have a strong thematic and narrative connection and intestest with human issues. The Fianna are a bit less then their flawed selves if they aren't struggling to keep their impressionable youths from fighting their kin's battles.

                          All that said, I agree that the gameline has disserved itself in the past with simplistic depictions of nuanced political issues, although I also don't think that a certain amount of bias is necessary a cardinal sin, particularly if it's acknowledged and taken in consideration by both the writers and the community.

                          Because ultimately some amount of political bias in the game is inevitable in my opinion, not just because of its 90s punk roots, but also because one of Werewolves platonic ideals can essentially be boiled down to 'environmentalists with superpowers'.

                          Yes that's reductionary, but it's not entirely wrong either and with that as a central premise of the game, some amount of leftist politics is inevitable imo.
                          Well, it is hard to remove environmentalism from the setting, but we should try to avoid having all of the factions represent some political platform. By the setting, all of the Tribes are ancient, older than human civilizations which they are tied to, and so connecting them too closely to certain very modern political movements seem contradictory, as well as annoying and contentious. Just about any faction could have some overlap with real world political ideologies or movements, but when you have a writer who has a certain world view is writing a WW faction who shares that world view and uses that piece of fiction as a platform, then it will lead to bad writing and bad world building - which is something we see in many of the W:tA books.

                          Comment


                          • Werewolf makes Gay-therapy facilities into atrocious abuse centers for Wyrmish experimentation... and I love it.

                            Trying to keep real world politics out of a game is silly, insofar as where the fuck do you draw the line? I might make fun of CoG for being cringe-leftists at times, but actually changing human politics for the better is how you target corruption, polution and the abusses that come with that. Just killing the workers on an oil rig does nothing in the long run but cause misery, and the garou know that. The Tribes are meant to disagree on the details, a simple KillHumans/Don'tKillHumans Rich-tribe/Poor-tribe doesn't capture a political situation worthy of any thought. They're meant to be flawed and human; It's not like the tribes would ever realistically agree on what's A noble Garou goal and what's a silly monkey idea. Tell me; Is nuclear power a good Garou topic or a silly monkey problem? Is gender disphoria worth addressing by the garou nation? It's all well and good to say "The Garou should be above mortal politics" until you think about that long enough that you realize what a fucking ridiculous notion that is.


                            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              Werewolf makes Gay-therapy facilities into atrocious abuse centers for Wyrmish experimentation... and I love it.

                              Trying to keep real world politics out of a game is silly, insofar as where the fuck do you draw the line? I might make fun of CoG for being cringe-leftists at times, but actually changing human politics for the better is how you target corruption, polution and the abusses that come with that. Just killing the workers on an oil rig does nothing in the long run but cause misery, and the garou know that. The Tribes are meant to disagree on the details, a simple KillHumans/Don'tKillHumans Rich-tribe/Poor-tribe doesn't capture a political situation worthy of any thought. They're meant to be flawed and human; It's not like the tribes would ever realistically agree on what's A noble Garou goal and what's a silly monkey idea. Tell me; Is nuclear power a good Garou topic or a silly monkey problem? Is gender disphoria worth addressing by the garou nation? It's all well and good to say "The Garou should be above mortal politics" until you think about that long enough that you realize what a fucking ridiculous notion that is.
                              Wow. I still don’t like politics irl but your second paragraph raises a really good point. I think the Children of Gaia in particular might get involved in mortal political activism as a way to fight Pentex and the Wyrm.


                              The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                              • Yeah like Werewolf has never been political/s/

                                Did you play the same game that I’ve read? Pentex is basically every bad things companies have done.

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