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  • Vampire did it smarter; If you're left wing, the Ventrue are the root of all evil, if you're right wing, the Toreador are the root of all evil... and yet both sides can recognize that all the vampires aren't nice people and it's just that some vampires are more 'the enemy' than others. A right wing storyteller who throws extra shade on the Toreador isn't going to upset a left wing audience. We recognize archtypes within the clans but we usually don't go as far as to identify ourselves with a specific clan.

    In werewolf? Your biases can give you an entirely different image of the tribe than somebody else at the table. The shadow lords could be hyper-competent machiavelians or they could be power hungry monsters with an inferiority complex far too close to the wyrm, the bone gnawers are heroic hobos or gutter trash, The Black Furies protect women or they just hate men, The silver fangs are tragic heroes or a bloated incestuous nobility that should've got the axe... Few people look at both sides and the writing swings like a pendulum. The 1e writers really should have had a sit down, taken the time to look at their work, waited a few days, and then read the thing again to see if they still felt the same way. Or maybe the 1e writers did everything well except overemphasize how Irish the Fianna were, and we were meant to polarize over different tribes.


    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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    • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      Vampire did it smarter; If you're left wing, the Ventrue are the root of all evil, if you're right wing, the Toreador are the root of all evil... and yet both sides can recognize that all the vampires aren't nice people and it's just that some vampires are more 'the enemy' than others. A right wing storyteller who throws extra shade on the Toreador isn't going to upset a left wing audience. We recognize archtypes within the clans but we usually don't go as far as to identify ourselves with a specific clan.
      Whilst the Venture, as the aristocratic Clan, are clearly ‘right wing’ as per that definition-by-class-denotation, the Toreodor are not definitely left wing. They are the Clan of artists and aficionados of art which isn’t in and of itself a political or ethical viewpoint, but one of aesthetics. Allegorically, one could see them as representing a certain chattering celebrity class, but in the real world this group is not necessarily left or right wing. The more obvious antithesis to the Venture and right wingers are the Brujah Clan, as agitators and dissenters with Anarch sensibilities and an element of Marxism in there too, notwithstanding the occasional fascist tendency you can get with individuals. It should be mentioned that the stereotypes of each Clan largely fueled the satirical element of the game also, so you can take them all with a pinch of salt.

      In werewolf? Your biases can give you an entirely different image of the tribe than somebody else at the table. The shadow lords could be hyper-competent machiavelians or they could be power hungry monsters with an inferiority complex far too close to the wyrm, the bone gnawers are heroic hobos or gutter trash, The Black Furies protect women or they just hate men, The silver fangs are tragic heroes or a bloated incestuous nobility that should've got the axe... Few people look at both sides and the writing swings like a pendulum. The 1e writers really should have had a sit down, taken the time to look at their work, waited a few days, and then read the thing again to see if they still felt the same way. Or maybe the 1e writers did everything well except overemphasize how Irish the Fianna were, and we were meant to polarize over different tribes.
      I don’t think anybody is denying that there are political elements to the writing of Werewolf: The Apocalypse, and people can interpret that through their own lenses. However, when your own interpretation, due to your own bias, is overlayed on top of what was actually written it both changes the context of what is said and it also forms a bad basis of criticism - because what you are criticising is your own interpretation, rather than the intent of the writers.
      Last edited by Trippy; 07-24-2020, 06:32 PM.

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      • I never thought of the Toreador as being left wing. In fact, I know a little group of other conservative role players, none of which ever saw the Toreador as being on the left. Within the context of vampiric politics, the Toreador are closer to the establishment. We generally saw the Brujah as being the leftists of the vampire world with Ventrue being on the right. Of course, this doesn’t map directly into human politics, as you can have anti-establishment right wing Brujah (Neo-Nazis, libertarians, etc.) and Ventrue who support leftist human politics with their political connections.

        Vampire isn’t really that political, at least not with regard to human politics. Werewolf is much more political. Is that good or bad? I guess it’s a matter of opinion, but being political in a way that directly ties to the ideologies of writers and players is going to cause problems.

        I would probably error on the side of making W:tA less political, making the beliefs of werewolf Tribes further removed from modern human ideologies. Not only because it avoids the problems that come from that, but because it seems more realistic for these ancient Tribes to not line up with the Democrat Party.

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        • In right-wing thought, the problem with society often isn't the working class marxists, it's the 'liberal elite'; a degenerate class of celebrities and academics and artists and comedians and such that use their power and influence to actively undermine the traditional values that keep society together. They trade in overpriced artwork, bring all the immigration in and put gays in the military! (The Ventrue/Conservative elite keep society together and give people jobs) The liberal elite are the bad millionaires and billionaires that keep good hardworking people down and devalued, and are often the millionaires and billionaires that "liberals" (not the hard-left marxists) think are worth having around.

          I don't think there's anything genuinely counter to my CoG interpretation. 1E does state that many of the younger CoG's are radical, and that they get involved a lot in mortal politics.


          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
            In right-wing thought, the problem with society often isn't the working class marxists, it's the 'liberal elite'; a degenerate class of celebrities and academics and artists and comedians and such that use their power and influence to actively undermine the traditional values that keep society together. They trade in overpriced artwork, bring all the immigration in and put gays in the military! (The Ventrue/Conservative elite keep society together and give people jobs) The liberal elite are the bad millionaires and billionaires that keep good hardworking people down and devalued, and are often the millionaires and billionaires that "liberals" (not the hard-left marxists) think are worth having around.

            I don't think there's anything genuinely counter to my CoG interpretation. 1E does state that many of the younger CoG's are radical, and that they get involved a lot in mortal politics.
            The very notion of a ‘liberal elite’ is a political idea rather than an objective categorization. It is an idea purported to support an ideology that needs to identify it as a target group in order to validate that ideology - it is pretty much the basis of Fascist ideology, actually. This is why it is showing a bias to interpret fictional groups in the game in such a way - its an overlay on what is actually written, where the interpretation is placed at the centre of the criticism rather than the intent of the writing.
            Last edited by Trippy; 07-24-2020, 07:26 PM.

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            • Well, that is true, some conservatives see the problem as a liberal elite. There are actually lots of wildly different world views within conservatism, some of which are more pro-rich and some are more anti-rich. I would generally say, though, that if Toreador seem like the villains in your world view, the Ventrue probably aren’t going to be the heroes. More likely they’d see the Gangrel as the heroes - rugged rural types who just want to be left alone. I don’t recall ever talking to any conservative V:tM players who thought that the Toreador were bad or saw them as liberal elites.

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              • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                In right-wing thought, the problem with society often isn't the working class marxists, it's the 'liberal elite'; a degenerate class of celebrities and academics and artists and comedians and such that use their power and influence to actively undermine the traditional values that keep society together. They trade in overpriced artwork, bring all the immigration in and put gays in the military! (The Ventrue/Conservative elite keep society together and give people jobs) The liberal elite are the bad millionaires and billionaires that keep good hardworking people down and devalued, and are often the millionaires and billionaires that "liberals" (not the hard-left marxists) think are worth having around.
                The idea that "liberal elites" are leftists is a delusion of liberals and centrists in general, or a specific consequence of the warped politics of America, where things most of the world considers part of basic human dignity are treated by the right-wing as immoral hand-outs to the undeserving or a Trojan Horse for an authoritarian government takeover...

                Similarly, the automatic conflation of the working-class with Marxists is foolish. The hard-working middle-class WASP is a huge part of the right-wing's self-identify. Meanwhile, Marxists have a specific term for the frequency with which the working-class works against them: false consciousness.

                More importantly, the modern concepts of "left-wing" and "right-wing" are complex clusters that vary to some degree in different contexts. Trying to make any one clan the "perfect example" of an entire side of the political spectrum is reductive, IMO.

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                • Well, that was MyWifeisScary’s original point, that the Clans mostly aren’t conflated with real world political views, but that the Tribes are to a much greater degree.

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                  • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                    More likely they’d see the Gangrel as the heroes - rugged rural types who just want to be left alone.
                    You damn skippy...Hit the nail right on the head with that one...

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                    • Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                      Stuff
                      You're not educating me here. I'm not saying "this notion is true" I'm saying "Some people believe this notion is true". Right-wing conservatives have problems with Right-wing liberals, and Toreador can be interpreted as a caricature of right-wing liberals (you may also see them as caricatures of socialites, there's certainly overlaps). I wasn't conflating all working class as marxists either. Relax please.



                      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Kharnov View Post
                        Similarly, the automatic conflation of the working-class with Marxists is foolish. The hard-working middle-class WASP is a huge part of the right-wing's self-identify. Meanwhile, Marxists have a specific term for the frequency with which the working-class works against them: false consciousness.

                        More importantly, the modern concepts of "left-wing" and "right-wing" are complex clusters that vary to some degree in different contexts. Trying to make any one clan the "perfect example" of an entire side of the political spectrum is reductive, IMO.
                        To be sure, the notion of a ‘working class’ is a Marxist term. Marxism is about class conflict and who owns the means of production in a society. If you have a group, like the Brujah, that is fundamentally about people who identify themselves in a class conflict, then that immediately has Marxist undertones. That said, it is still a stereotype which the game plays on satirically - each Clan is effectively a stereotypical 'monster’ of the other groups' interpretation.

                        But, absolutely, the modern concepts of 'left wing’ and ‘right wing’ are very nebulous these days. Originally, it was a reference to wealth - where the right wing of the French Parliament filled up by order of material wealth and status with motivation to conserve the status quo, followed the left wing which had those of less wealth and status with motivation to change things. Much of the problem these days, is that individuals from both groups, for whatever reason, tend to see themselves as having an axe to grind either way and consider anybody outside their own identified group as an enemy seeking to oppress them.

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                        • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                          To be sure, I have read the Children of Gaia Tribebook, albeit a long time ago. There isn’t any such mention of the sort of ‘leftist’ groups being mentioned here in it. It’s a pacifist group and one that is expressly tolerant as a value. Whether this constitutes ‘leftist’, I dunno, but I find the left/right dichotomy so ill-defined these days it is something of a moot point in any case.
                          I have no idea how people missed the Left wing politics in all of white wolfs games.

                          And the American right has voted for trump for some reason, despite the fact he is the exact opposite of their supposed “values”

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                          • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            You're not educating me here. I'm not saying "this notion is true" I'm saying "Some people believe this notion is true". Right-wing conservatives have problems with Right-wing liberals, and Toreador can be interpreted as a caricature of right-wing liberals (you may also see them as caricatures of socialites, there's certainly overlaps). I wasn't conflating all working class as marxists either. Relax please.
                            While I did focus on the one particular post, my comments were a broader expression of frustration with points you've made or positions you've taken throughout this thread. My comment about centrists, or even moderate right-wingers, who consider themselves "leftists" wasn't just directed at your characterization of Toreador "liberals" as the sum-of-all-evil in the right-wing mindset. But focusing on that, it's just one portion of the cluster, and not really an especially central one IMO; even trying to reduce it to "just the right-wing perspective," and it's still a bad comparison.

                            Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                            To be sure, the notion of a ‘working class’ is a Marxist term. Marxism is about class conflict and who owns the means of production in a society. If you have a group, like the Brujah, that is fundamentally about people who identify themselves in a class conflict, then that immediately has Marxist undertones. That said, it is still a stereotype which the game plays on satirically - each Clan is effectively a stereotypical 'monster’ of the other groups' interpretation.

                            But, absolutely, the modern concepts of 'left wing’ and ‘right wing’ are very nebulous these days. Originally, it was a reference to wealth - where the right wing of the French Parliament filled up by order of material wealth and status with motivation to conserve the status quo, followed the left wing which had those of less wealth and status with motivation to change things. Much of the problem these days, is that individuals from both groups, for whatever reason, tend to see themselves as having an axe to grind either way and consider anybody outside their own identified group as an enemy seeking to oppress them.
                            I agree one hundred percent that the term "working-class" is Marxist in origin, but I felt we were pretty clearly talking about something larger than the strict Marxist theoretical definition when MyWifeIsScary argued that the right-wing is pro-working-class. To the extent that it is true, I think the reasoning behind it isn't a "Marxism" thing. I also agree that the Brujah Clan is probably the best representative of that particular aspect of the left in VtM.

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                            • Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post

                              I have no idea how people missed the Left wing politics in all of white wolfs games.

                              And the American right has voted for trump for some reason, despite the fact he is the exact opposite of their supposed “values”
                              To be sure, I think most of the early WoD games, which extends in different ways to later writings, were left leaning in the views expressed. However, I’m specifically referring to the term ‘Leftist’ as being particularly meaningless. It is the equivalent of having a ‘Rightist’ term - which nobody ever uses because its far too inclusive of all sorts of ‘isms’ that can’t easily be bundled together. While I have heard people self-identifying as ‘Leftist’, is is more often used an umbrella pejorative from people who, fundamentally, don’t share the same world view as the person using the label. So, for me, I’d much more prefer an ‘ism’ term to actually carry some more specific meaning. For example, I understand what an ‘Environmentalist’ basically stands for, but that wouldn’t automatically group them in with a Marxist or even necessarily being left wing.
                              Last edited by Trippy; 07-24-2020, 08:46 PM.

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                              • Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
                                Yeah like Werewolf has never been political/s/

                                Did you play the same game that I’ve read? Pentex is basically every bad things companies have done.
                                Some Garou tribes are very active in human politics. Others (Red Talons, Uktena, Silent Striders) are probably much less so. Silver Fangs and Shadow Lords defo have political connections. Glass Walkers and Children of Gaia probably do too. Black Furies, Get of Fenris...maybe. Really depends on how the ST wants to play it. Remember, a lot of homid Philodoxes are lawyers, judges and politicians irl.


                                The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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