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  • A lot of the Tribes seem to have a left wing slant to their ideology. Can that be taken in the other direction? Tribes as being right wing in the modern human political sense? Acknowledging, of course, that both left and right can mean a lot of different things.

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    • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
      A lot of the Tribes seem to have a left wing slant to their ideology. Can that be taken in the other direction? Tribes as being right wing in the modern human political sense? Acknowledging, of course, that both left and right can mean a lot of different things.
      Yes, left and right wing can mean different things, but aren’t the Silver Fangs pretty much the established aristocratic rulers of the Tribes?

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      • Originally posted by Trippy View Post

        Yes, left and right wing can mean different things, but aren’t the Silver Fangs pretty much the established aristocratic rulers of the Tribes?
        They are...


        The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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        • Originally posted by Penelope View Post

          They are...
          ...So aren’t they right wing in the classical sense? Indeed, one could also argue other Tribes like Shadow Lords as being essentially right wing in outlook too.

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          • Tribes are by their very nature conservative. Even if you unequivocally consider Feminism a socially liberal, left wing idea, the Black Furies remain a hierarchical, authoritative, highly traditional society of people who are very hostile to much of the outside world.

            And I don't think environmentalism is really a left wing view, I mean, I've seen Look who's back. Climate change denial is a socially liberal idea brought about by little or poor governance. And it's not like fighting the right wingers makes you left wing. I would argue that most tribes would be in the blue corner of an allignment test. Much of the tribal angst against humanity isn't because humanity does bad things, but because humanity should've been kept under the rule of the tribe.

            The only tribe that I think mostly lacks this authoritarian, hierarchical bent is the Bone Gnawers, who routinely don't give a shit, and who are spat on by every other tribe. But the more active Wyrm fighters among the Gnawers probably do get more authoritarian out of a need for effective Militancy.


            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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            • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              And I don't think environmentalism is really a left wing view, I mean, I've seen Look who's back. Climate change denial is a socially liberal idea brought about by little or poor governance. And it's not like fighting the right wingers makes you left wing. I would argue that most tribes would be in the blue corner of an allignment test. Much of the tribal angst against humanity isn't because humanity does bad things, but because humanity should've been kept under the rule of the tribe.
              What’s with the small print? And what do you mean by "Climate change denial is a socially liberal idea brought about by little or poor governance”? What is the evidence for this?


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              • Originally posted by Trippy View Post

                What’s with the small print? And what do you mean by "Climate change denial is a socially liberal idea brought about by little or poor governance”? What is the evidence for this?
                Small print because it wasn't the main argument.

                Climate change denial is the result of private interests getting a hold of unregulated media and lobbying Goverment officials. In other words, it happened because people had the 'liberty' to do what they wanted without an authorative regulatory body putting the breaks on the scheme. Climate change denial happened because people had the freedom to make it happen.

                (It's truly great how libertarians use the snake as a logo. As god said, 'Cursed be snakes'. The Setites are at least aware of the implications of their symbolism)


                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  Small print because it wasn't the main argument.

                  Climate change denial is the result of private interests getting a hold of unregulated media and lobbying Goverment officials. In other words, it happened because people had the 'liberty' to do what they wanted without an authorative regulatory body putting the breaks on the scheme. Climate change denial happened because people had the freedom to make it happen.

                  (It's truly great how libertarians use the snake as a logo. As god said, 'Cursed be snakes'. The Setites are at least aware of the implications of their symbolism)
                  Well, private interests and an unregulated media doesn’t equate to 'socially liberal’ values. 'Social liberal' ideas include being tolerant of the LGBT+ community, for example, or other progressive stances. Moreover, there are numerous academic studies that have demonstrated clearly that the source of most climate change denial papers come from right wing think tanks, which are frequently funded by fossil fuel lobbies and influencers like the Koch brothers. These aren’t groups that are normally associated with social liberal ideas.

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                  • When I meant 'socially liberal' I did not mean progressive. I meant 'socially liberal' as in people don't tell you what to do, the opposite of authoritarianism.


                    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                    • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                      When I meant 'socially liberal' I did not mean progressive. I meant 'socially liberal' as in people don't tell you what to do, the opposite of authoritarianism.
                      Well, I think this is half the problem here. You are taking terms that have established meanings and then redefining them.

                      Being "socially liberal" does not mean 'people don’t tell you what to do’ - it has a particular political definition. It is largely used to differentiate between different attitudes to what being ‘liberal’ means on the political spectrum. While it remains a bit of a pigeonhole still, the left tend to regard 'social liberalism' in higher emphasis than 'economic liberalism', which is emphasised by the right. That is, left wing politics tend to emphasise social liberalism and economic regulation, while right wing thinkers favour social conservatism and economic liberalism.

                      There is a broader conflict in ideology between Liberalism as a whole and Authoritarianism, but really the Hegelian Dialectic-style antagonist to Authoritarianism that you are citing is Anarchism.

                      And to the point being made, I don’t think Anarchists are responsible for the rise in climate change denial.
                      Last edited by Trippy; 07-25-2020, 06:40 AM.

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                      • Originally posted by Trippy View Post

                        ...So aren’t they right wing in the classical sense? Indeed, one could also argue other Tribes like Shadow Lords as being essentially right wing in outlook too.
                        The Silver Fangs are aristocrats. Aristocrats typically throw pretty good parties but also have a sense of noblesse oblige and defend their people from outside threats.

                        I know next to nothing about real life politics and not that much about World of Darkness politics. I think that counts as right wing but I’m not 100% sure. Though irl there are some aristocrats with very progressive views.


                        The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                        • “Dickheads with a family crest and a prep school code of honor...”

                          Alison Poole (a lapsed aristocrat herself) in Story of My Life said this about her ex, but it could apply to the Silver Fangs too (depending on how you feel about them).


                          The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                          • Originally posted by Penelope View Post

                            The Silver Fangs are aristocrats. Aristocrats typically throw pretty good parties but also have a sense of noblesse oblige and defend their people from outside threats.

                            I know next to nothing about real life politics and not that much about World of Darkness politics. I think that counts as right wing but I’m not 100% sure. Though irl there are some aristocrats with very progressive views.
                            Which just goes to show how difficult it is to label anything left or right wing, these days!

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                            • Originally posted by Trippy View Post

                              Which just goes to show how difficult it is to label anything left or right wing, these days!
                              Very true 😊...


                              The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

                              Comment


                              • I'm reminded of that one quote by some philosopher which I'm about to butcher - 'there are no true debates left in philosophy - only disagreement as to the definition of terms'.

                                As far as the political mapping of the tribes, I tend to think along the line that most tribes exist along a spectrum akin to real world religions, ethnic groups, or subcultures. Most tribes - or clans or traditions or what have you - may predominantly lean one way or another but every tribe contains multitudes.

                                For example the 'stereotypical' tribe contains both left and right qualities as a matter of course. The tribe is conservative in its society and is adamant about maintaining tradition (and the unfortunate implications of 'cultural purity') in the face of a modernizing world. The tribe disdains human society as immoral and ignorant for its denial of traditional custom. The tribe loathes humanity because it refuses to hunt properly, pray properly, or live properly.

                                Simultaneously the enemies of the tribe and the punkish characters can often be mapped to generally leftist concerns or narratives. The tribe loathes corporate entities, the military industrial complex, and often entire governments in general. The tribe advocates direct action to its members - often violent and destructive action, as is the want of the Garou. Furthermore the Gothic-Punk nature of the WoD often promotes the PC pack as a youthful insurrection, young turks battling a stagnant system in the need of upheaval and change to succeed.

                                There are certainly exceptions. The Red Talons obviously defy mapping to human politics, the Glass Walkers defy the standard by being aggressively progressive and futurist, most tribes have a laundry list of specific issues that prompts them towards certain stances.

                                Generally speaking though you've probably got a spectrum from left to right starting with the 'urrah' going to the "low tribes" and then the "high tribes". To specify: urrah meaning Bone Gnawers & Glass Walkers; low tribes meaning Silent Striders, Stargazers in the west, and the Pure Tribes in western circles; and the high tribes meaning the Black Furies, Fianna, Get of Fenris, Shadow Lords, Silver Fangs, and the Pure Tribes within their own circles with the Children of Gaia on a vast spectrum throughout the chart and the Red Talons abstaining entirely.

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