Worst WoD idea you’ve ever heard?

[lbeaumanior]

Well, in the context of the World of Darkness, which has Vampires, Werewolves, Mages and all sorts of other critters running around in it - this does pretty much match the notion that superstitious masses are still affecting the consensual reality, doesn’t it?

What it does highlight, however, is how precarious the position of the Technocracy really is. The Mage game (at least in the 1st edition) gave the impression that the Technocracy was almost entirely dominant as an ultra-Modernist force, and the post-modernist Traditions were on the brink of annihilation. The reality is anything but, going on WoD lore.

I see your point, but mine was even larger, in the World of Darkness, regular faith healing should be the bee's knees in those parts of the world that I mention (including the Bible Belt in USA), and many, MANY other things that would make no sense, if anything the Technocracy should be the ones fighting a losing battle..

Awakening did a far better job of making a plausible universe.

[Yaoi Huntress Earth]

Same for Let the street run red. One of the Tremere NPC has pretty much no personality outside of being non binary.

Reminds me of one of the example characters in Legacy of Lies who had they/them pronouns despite the game being set in the dark ages. Granted my knowledge of the far east is limited (the character was from there), I know it was pretty patriarchal and probably not that open to people claiming they're neither male nor female and wanting special pronouns. Even if the group accepts the character's pronouns and gender, the rest of the Dark Ages world would be laughing at them at best (it might even be worse if the character was born female). It just makes the character stick out like a sore thumb.

[Trippy]

I see your point, but mine was even larger, in the World of Darkness, regular faith healing should be the bee's knees in those parts of the world that I mention (including the Bible Belt in USA), and many, MANY other things that would make no sense, if anything the Technocracy should be the ones fighting a losing battle..

Awakening did a far better job of making a plausible universe.

Well, Awakening didn’t have a Technocracy in it to try to rationalize everything!

[lbeaumanior]

Well, Awakening didn’t have a Technocracy in it to try to rationalize everything!

I think you misunderstood my point. The problem was not the Technocracy or the Traditions.

The problem was that the metaphysics of Consensus have no verisimilitude neither in the WoD (as presented in all the gamelines) or our world (as comparison). What most people believe/accept = Consensus, can not happen in WoD with an ascendant Technocracy since most people in WoD do not believe what the Technocracy expounds.

The real world beliefs of most of the population (half, HALF of US citizens belive that angels are real) are closer to the Traditions.

[Trippy]

I think you misunderstood my point. The problem was not the Technocracy or the Traditions.

The problem was that the metaphysics of Consensus have no verisimilitude neither in the WoD (as presented in all the gamelines) or our world (as comparison). What most people believe/accept = Consensus, can not happen in WoD with an ascendant Technocracy since most people in WoD do not believe what the Technocracy expounds.

The real world beliefs of most of the population (half, HALF of US citizens belive that angels are real) are closer to the Traditions.

At this point, I think you are misunderstanding.

My last post was just a throwaway observation to end the chat with - rather than anything else.

However, ‘consensual reality’ has its roots in real world postmodern magical practice and thought - much more so than anything written in Awakening, and is why Mage: The Ascension remains the more interesting game for me, despite all its messiness.

The Technocracy in the game reflects the growth of secular rationalism and Modernism towards the end of the 20th century, but also historically tracks it back to the Enlightenment. The Traditions in the game however, reflect the rejection of modernism and the paranoia of all sorts of tradition or fringe beliefs that feel persecuted by the rise of secular rationalism and modernism. The rejection of rationalism is basically what postmodernism is about.

You seem to think that pointing out about the postmodern nature of beliefs around the world undercuts the premise of Mage: The Ascension, but it is actually what the game is about - that reality is not fixed, and that competing world views are competing over what is ‘truth’ or not. Consensual reality, along with paradigm and paradox are the explanation for how seemingly contradictory world views can exist in the same world. It has complete verisimilitude, because the ideas actually stem from real world concepts.

The misconception here is that the 'consensual reality’ is a monolithic, fixed entity that cannot incorporate disparate ideas. It isn’t, although the Technocracy want it to be. In terms of the position of the Technocracy standing vs the Traditions and Crafts, it is within the scope of the current game that the Technocracy is in the retreat.

[Ramnesis]

I think you misunderstood my point. The problem was not the Technocracy or the Traditions.

The problem was that the metaphysics of Consensus have no verisimilitude neither in the WoD (as presented in all the gamelines) or our world (as comparison). What most people believe/accept = Consensus, can not happen in WoD with an ascendant Technocracy since most people in WoD do not believe what the Technocracy expounds.

The real world beliefs of most of the population (half, HALF of US citizens belive that angels are real) are closer to the Traditions.

I'm surprised it isn't higher.

I will readily admit that "What most people believe/accept = Consensus" and is instantly reality is probably the easiest interpretation of how the core introduces the idea of Mage metaphysics, however it is not the only or even the most likely interpretation. The statement 'Consensus defines reality' is on about the same level as 'Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.' It is true but also vague enough that there is more than one way it could work out until you know more.

[Demigod Beast]

This’uns from White Wolf, itself: Apparently, Asians don’t dream and thus no traditional changelings of any sort exist in the Far East. Asian mythology is FULL of fairytales and mythic tricksters and rampaging monsters a’plenty, But no, apparently the Dreaming in Asia is inert.

[MyWifeIsScary]

This’uns from White Wolf, itself: Apparently, Asians don’t dream and thus no traditional changelings of any sort exist in the Far East. Asian mythology is FULL of fairytales and mythic tricksters and rampaging monsters a’plenty, But no, apparently the Dreaming in Asia is inert.

The General attitude towards Asia in corebooks is full faceplant-into-frozen shit. . It's shitty in Vampire, shitty in werewolf, shitty from the limited material i've seen of mage, screwed in demon.. Wraith, which I'm not big on, presents something interesting but flawed. Now, certain supplement books have done a very good job at salvaging the shit-heaps and making them something good and profound and workable and not-racist, but to find the gold you've got to dig through the shit... Asia shouldn't have it's own unique supernaturals in 90% of cases. It can have it's own politics and philosophy and perhaps some geography-specific resources that aren't getting exported but beyond that... ugh.



90's americans apparently had really weird ideas. ( I blame a successful post-war Japan). The thing is that today, we can understand east Asia pretty well because there's an abundance of writing and communication between west and east. If the World of Darkness was kickstarted today in this age of internet, they could probably do East asia and south east asia justice (well, this is assuming the OG writers. I doubt we'd get that justice with V5) The problem is Africa, which is like 'the New Asia' in that we know almost enough to be interested but there isn't enough information to actually build a respectful, cohesive and accurate system for -all- of sub-saharan africa, rather than just take very specific pieces from certain places and extrapolate them in the most bizzare and hurtful way. (but also, perhaps in a decade or two, we'll have a much larger share of information and can make sourcebooks for africa)

Australia's pretty shit too for coverage. But then when I start thinking like this I also think everywhere's pretty shit for WTA; Europe, North America, South america, the middle east... Antartica...

[Asmodai]

While the research old WW did was quite shit, It's down to the players to actually do some exploration of history, culture and mythology if they want to make their games work properly beyond the tiny bounds that were presented in the original games. With time OP and WW have worked on giving us better frameworks and reminding people to consider the World and the wealth of information we have available nowaday, but the end of the day it's down to us running and playing the games to do our job and treat the people of the world with respect.

While a lot of the ideas in KotE were downright weird and a mark of their times, there is a interesting game and some brilliant concepts under it, especially if you consider that the Umbra and the local cultures will interpret things differently and be shaped by their own quirks and needs. I do kind of regret the "Asians read..." never got past the introduction for KotE because some of the worst and edgiest crap in the old books is in those pompous introductions. Better yet, KotE quickly started fixing things and making the game world about more than just Japan + a bit of china. It had some of the best splatbooks ever written - Devil Tigers (Oh, My!) and the Companion pretty quickly explained that the vision presented in the core book was limited and that the actuality of the Wan Kuei culture has quite a bit more depth.

Hengeyokai, while clearly too Japan obsessed, is really not that hard to adapt to a more sensible framework and the Beast Courts are quite an interesting concept if you play up the fact that a Beast Court of India will be different than the one in Malysia, China or in Japan. We never really got a lot of it explained, so it's down to us to actually get it working and incorporate as much culture and history as we can to give it life and do justice to the places we are setting the games in. Heck, it's hard to really mess up much if you don't go into much detail - and compared to all the other factions the core concepts of reality and why things are as they are, are mostly the same between Werewolf and Hengeyokai.

Wraith, interestingly, decided to play with the whole overfocusing on a single nation. The underlying conflict of Dark Kingdom of Jade is that the Chinese underworld is so powerful that it's trying to subseme and take over all the other places of the dead around them. A lot of the conflict there is distinctly about the cultural oppression and wiping out of identity of the ghosts that don't follow the Yellow Emperor's vision. It's about rebels and survivors trying to keep to their own cultures while being steamrolled by a vast and powerful empire. It resonates with the history of China and is strangely prescient and amazingly fitting for the current times, all things considered.

I really liked the Hsien, but my knowledge of Changeling is limited. I'm quite confused by the idea that there is no Dreaming there, so will have to read up on it. I always kind of imagined that there would be Changelings in addition to the Hsien considering that their nature is entirely different and that they are less antagonistic than the Wan Kuei/Kindred. I'll have to check out C20 and see what it has to say about it, I got it on a sale but never really read it.

[Penelope]

While the research old WW did was quite shit, It's down to the players to actually do some exploration of history, culture and mythology if they want to make their games work properly beyond the tiny bounds that were presented in the original games. With time OP and WW have worked on giving us better frameworks and reminding people to consider the World and the wealth of information we have available nowaday, but the end of the day it's down to us running and playing the games to do our job and treat the people of the world with respect.

While a lot of the ideas in KotE were downright weird and a mark of their times, there is a interesting game and some brilliant concepts under it, especially if you consider that the Umbra and the local cultures will interpret things differently and be shaped by their own quirks and needs. I do kind of regret the "Asians read..." never got past the introduction for KotE because some of the worst and edgiest crap in the old books is in those pompous introductions. Better yet, KotE quickly started fixing things and making the game world about more than just Japan + a bit of china. It had some of the best splatbooks ever written - Devil Tigers (Oh, My!) and the Companion pretty quickly explained that the vision presented in the core book was limited and that the actuality of the Wan Kuei culture has quite a bit more depth.

Hengeyokai, while clearly too Japan obsessed, is really not that hard to adapt to a more sensible framework and the Beast Courts are quite an interesting concept if you play up the fact that a Beast Court of India will be different than the one in Malysia, China or in Japan. We never really got a lot of it explained, so it's down to us to actually get it working and incorporate as much culture and history as we can to give it life and do justice to the places we are setting the games in. Heck, it's hard to really mess up much if you don't go into much detail - and compared to all the other factions the core concepts of reality and why things are as they are, are mostly the same between Werewolf and Hengeyokai.

Wraith, interestingly, decided to play with the whole overfocusing on a single nation. The underlying conflict of Dark Kingdom of Jade is that the Chinese underworld is so powerful that it's trying to subseme and take over all the other places of the dead around them. A lot of the conflict there is distinctly about the cultural oppression and wiping out of identity of the ghosts that don't follow the Yellow Emperor's vision. It's about rebels and survivors trying to keep to their own cultures while being steamrolled by a vast and powerful empire. It resonates with the history of China and is strangely prescient and amazingly fitting for the current times, all things considered.

I really liked the Hsien, but my knowledge of Changeling is limited. I'm quite confused by the idea that there is no Dreaming there, so will have to read up on it. I always kind of imagined that there would be Changelings in addition to the Hsien considering that their nature is entirely different and that they are less antagonistic than the Wan Kuei/Kindred. I'll have to check out C20 and see what it has to say about it, I got it on a sale but never really read it.

Thank you. This is a very cool analysis of the old Asian stuff.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

RE: No Dreaming in Asia -

The Dreaming is actually mentioned in WoD: Tokyo and touched upon as a thing that does exist there, with a two-way interaction. There's some kind of Gloam-like entity around Mt. Fuji that coughs up mystical forecasts that the Hungry Dead keep in contact with. I have no idea why or how this came to be, but it does stand in direct contradiction to the above note, even if no Changelings are involved with it directly. There's also a Japanese-American troll who works as a docent in the same book.

Nothing about Aokigahara, though, which is intensely odd as, in spite of the WoD line title, it was concentrated primarily on Wraith.

[Demigod Beast]

That’s just as bad—-The Dreaming is so weak in Asia that Japan has enough Glamour to barely sustain a minuscule changeling population. Nevermind in the West fairytales producing so much Glamour to sustain whole changelin civilizations, but in the East, fairytales apparently have no effect on Glamour whatsoever.