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  • Trippy I Liked your last post.


    The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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    • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      I had a longer post, but my baby found the off button...

      The Bone gnawers might have some 'liberal' ideas (City not that bad! I put this spirit in a buzzsaw! Rat just wants us to survive!) but they are conservative in other ways; They don't like members acquiring wealth or living comfortably.

      Children of Gaia... Oh boy.
      CoG espouse "liberal" values with a conservative mindset; Identity politics are more important than economic concerns, Homosexual feelings are more valuable than the feelings of "bigoted" priests so the latter must be made to marry the former; You absolutely have to be on the ball when it comes to gender pronouns or you're a fascist; "Aboriginal" is a good term for the natives of Australia whilst "Aborigine" is the term of a demonsterable colonial racist; White men are the enemy, green energy is the future but we must fight against nuclear power, fat acceptance is a good idea, safe spaces and cancel culture will fight the wyrm; socialism is good but we don't like those icky lower working class people... You have to accept metis or you're a terrible bad person who should feel shame and should shut up and keep quiet.

      The history of the CoG during the wars of rage can be summed up with unfavourable compromises, delaying and transforming decisive victories into drawn out wars, and they enabled a lot of ambushes with their 'peace talks'

      The CoG are like the KKK of the left; If they show up to your rally, you're going to turn off the centrists you want to sway. I might be using the CoG to vent my frustrations with liberals and misinformed 'leftists', but I think that's probably the thought process that formed the tribe in the first place; you're kind of supposed to hate them. They're smug self-righteous twats, and they express "liberal" ideals with a conservative us-Vs-them thought process; They have the same amount of rage influencing their thoughts as every other tribe. The CoG were and are the "Intolerant Left" that puts itself in a very tribal echo-chamber and gets mad that everyone else isn't as enlightened as them.
      That is very different from how I interpret the GoG. I don’t see them as extreme leftists, in fact I wouldn’t necessarily tie them that closely to human politics. I see them as a faction that has traditionally been more focused on peace, tolerance, and understanding than other Garou tribes. Where as so many other Tribes are militant or violent, the CoG prefer violence as a last resort. They would be more likely to seek coexistence between ethnicities, ideologies, supernatural type, and so on. Does this make them the “left” of Garou society? I don’t know, maybe, but it’s a naturally more moderate viewpoint, especially when contracted to more violent and less tolerant Garou society as a whole.

      The kind of leftism you describe is a very modern sort of thing and Garou Tribes are all ancient. One problem I have with a lot of W:tA political stuff is it’s too biased towards modern human politics, in fact modern US politics. SJW’s and Antifa might be in the news or Internet a lot these days, but they aren’t going to be much of a factor in Garou society or ideology. If anything, I see the CoG more like hippies than Antifa, but only because there is some ideological overlap. Just like Black Furies and Wendigo overlap with gender or race politics of the modern left, but that doesn’t make them leftists in the sense of human politics.

      I guess I have a more positive, and likely less political, view of the CoG though.

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      • Unlike vampires (who are arguably divorced from mortal politics insofar as they use it as a tool and tend to encourage wealth gaps, societal divisions, and systemic corruption, regardless of what sect they're in, for the sake of an easy unlife) Werewolves have mortal lifespans and are fighting for change. Mortal politics are a rotten web of the Weaver and Wyrm and it needs to be changed. The CoG have always been the tribe that has pushed it's kinfolk into mortal activism and political responsibility, just as Black Furies push their kinfolk to enlarge women's movements. The Wendigo move to help the indians, the Get of Fenrir move to teach people self defence... Some tribes wanted to return to the past, some had changing identities and moved with the times.

        Every tribe has always believed that the world'd be better if people were just more like them. (and normal people can't be like Red Talons, that's why the Red Talons want all the normal people dead) That's kinda how tribalism works. Werewolf has always, always been a game entrenched in mortal politics, and the Tribes from 1e were meant to be caricatures of human movements (which would've worked a lot better had philosophical standpoints not been tied to races)

        Edit:
        (Also, I wasn't exactly saying that all CoG are american fringe leftists, i'm just saying that a lot of them are the type of people who would embrace such stances if they were born during the right time. There is a big difference between the values of old and young werewolves in our rapidly changing times. For example, the overwhelming majority of Black Furies over 35 are going to be TERFS, and the old are the ones that lead the tribe, but the Trans movement has become far more visible in the last few decades and so that TERF trend is likely buckling with the current pups*)

        *Pegasus will not budge so easily.

        So too have the CoG been influenced by the political landscape of today.
        Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 07-21-2020, 11:11 AM.


        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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        • Well, werewolves do live mortal lifespans, but they are also further removed from mortal society in a way. They likely are raise by kinfolk within their own subcultures that go back for millennia. They also have less ability to influence human politics.

          BF are going to want to improve the conditions of women, Wendigo are going to be for Natives and perhaps Anti-white, and so on, but just because they have some overlap with human political movements doesn’t mean that they are going to be defined by those movements. Garou society is ultra-conservative and to the degree that it’s influenced by human politics, it’s going to be slow. Golden of Gaia is likely to have adopted some Enlightenment Era values about rights and such, but it doesn’t seem right to me that they should be SJW’s when that has only existed for a few decades.

          Of course, it’s a matter of taste I suppose. I personally would rather show the Garou and their ideology as being very distinct from human politics. The official books aren’t always that way, but this is how I see the Tribe.

          Edit, reply to edit
          I would have virtually all BF be TERFs, aside from a few young radicals. Likewise, I wouldn’t see that many CoG adopting very modern human ideas, though probably more because they are the more liberal Tribe in a sense. I don’t think they would typically be intolerant tolerant types though, because the Tribe as a whole is meant to be a contrast against the other more militant Tribes. For those CoG who embrace human leftism, it seems like they would do so in a more peaceful way.
          Last edited by Sergeant Brother; 07-21-2020, 11:34 AM.

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          • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post

            That is very different from how I interpret the GoG. I don’t see them as extreme leftists, in fact I wouldn’t necessarily tie them that closely to human politics. I see them as a faction that has traditionally been more focused on peace, tolerance, and understanding than other Garou tribes. Where as so many other Tribes are militant or violent, the CoG prefer violence as a last resort. They would be more likely to seek coexistence between ethnicities, ideologies, supernatural type, and so on. Does this make them the “left” of Garou society? I don’t know, maybe, but it’s a naturally more moderate viewpoint, especially when contracted to more violent and less tolerant Garou society as a whole.

            The kind of leftism you describe is a very modern sort of thing and Garou Tribes are all ancient. One problem I have with a lot of W:tA political stuff is it’s too biased towards modern human politics, in fact modern US politics. SJW’s and Antifa might be in the news or Internet a lot these days, but they aren’t going to be much of a factor in Garou society or ideology. If anything, I see the CoG more like hippies than Antifa, but only because there is some ideological overlap. Just like Black Furies and Wendigo overlap with gender or race politics of the modern left, but that doesn’t make them leftists in the sense of human politics.

            I guess I have a more positive, and likely less political, view of the CoG though.
            Yeah it’s the Bone Gnawers which are furry Antifa.

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            • To be honest, early Werewolf was obnoxiously left wing often equating any right wing politics with the Wyrm, and designating radical left wing politics as Gaian. This was toned down in Revised, but many elements continued to surface especially with the Children of Gaia. (And I see the new material heading that way given the state of the gaming industry right now).

              I actually think MyWifeIsScary's critique is fairly on the ball in terms of how the Children of Gaia have been presented if one doesn't hold those politics. It's not how players - regardless of their personal politics - have generally wanted the tribe to be. But there is a reason why that tribe's tribebooks have been universally loathed.

              I agree with Sergeant Brother that Garou ideals and tribal culture should NOT map to any human politics, although you can always find certain parallels. And the Garou have to deal with forming tribal culture with their kinfolk even while they are embedded in human politics.

              So I end up throwing out some of the canonical portrayals in my own chronicles and use my own thoughts based on how I think those tribes should be portrayed based on their core concept and tribal totem. I like to think my version of the tribes are instantly recognizable as still being those tribes, but portrayed in a more interesting manner.

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              • Is Children of Gaia Tribebook Revised really that bad?


                The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                • I didn't think it was that bad, honestly. It was a little silly, but not the worst thing ever.

                  (It's possible that I had very low expectations though.)

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                  • I don't know how many homids spent their childhoods on-site compared to those who were born from kinfolk couples that had rejoined mainstream humanity and thus indoctrinated their children with a mix of mainstream left-views and what remains of garou teachings after a generation or more of seperation, but I'd wager normal political thought would have a big impact on those who were raised outside of the sept for the first decade or two of their lives, and that those people would go on to inform the people (and lupus) who were raised inside the sept.

                    But look
                    I criticised a score of "left wing" people
                    Now see them close ranks.
                    Tribal, isn't it?


                    A big problem with werewolf is that writers start identifying too much with tribes and then they write these tribes more idealistically. You can see that all the tribe books present their respective tribes as tolerant of metis when the corebook says they are not. This happens to some degree with every WoD faction, but it's especially prominent with Werewolf. Perhaps some of it is writers wanting to make that game they played canonical, and they totally made real social progress in that game they played. (One should never, never, never let Larpers inform you of your setting) but part of being a grown up is recognizing that nobody's good and everyone's a failure that well meaning people often have bad ideas / that negativity is valuable/that idealism in a darkly satirical setting comes across as parody/holding better values than others doesn't make you a better person/ that critiquing the thought processes of other people is not going to endear them to you... wait just a moment.

                    So anyhow, Every tribe is meant to be deeply flawed and it doesn't actually make contextual sense for there to ever be a 'right' tribe. The CoG are a special tribe because some people love them and champion them as the future of the garou nation, and more genre savvy individuals that can seperate character and player a little better sometimes overreact in knocking the tribe down a few pegs in a futile attempt to disuade the former category. If the 'last king' is succeeded by queens or unicorns rather than a black dog of grand-daddy thunder who we'll love to hate, we'll know who won. But the CoG have always flittered between -TheOneTrueTribe- and an absolute joke and, well, the latter understand the point of view of the former, but not vice versa, and that's a problem.


                    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                    • What about the Bone Gnawers their always tolerant of Mentis?

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                      • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                        But look
                        I criticised a score of "left wing" people
                        Now see them close ranks.
                        Tribal, isn't it?
                        How, exactly, did you see “left wing” people ‘close ranks’ here? What tribalism are you referring to?

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                        • Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
                          What about the Bone Gnawers their always tolerant of Mentis?
                          A lot of Gnawers are would-be-ronin that gave up on the fight but still wanted tribal belonging. A metis who wants to fight for gaia would thus be a valued asset in a tribe that... well... you know... 'beggars can't be choosers'

                          Also, Gnawers are a 'tainted' tribe who seem to take pride in being at the bottom, so metis hate, on a tribal level, is a bit daft. and metis hate on an individual level, where there are just so many metis... also daft. Being anti-metis with the gnawers is like expressing a hatred of nurses in a hospital.


                          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            A big problem with werewolf is that writers start identifying too much with tribes and then they write these tribes more idealistically.
                            Definitely true. It is also a problem that the tribebooks are written from an in character perspective, as opposed to an objective perspective. As a result, if your IC presenter is very idealistic, then things appear idealistically well. You really need multiple IC perspectives talking about the same thing to get a more accurate gauge of the tribe. After all, did the Bone Gnawer tribebooks ever have a member of the Man Eater camp give his thoughts on the tribe and the Litany?

                            Part of this, I think, was the intent to make sure every tribe could be presented sympathetically and heroically so if a PC wanted to be so and be from that tribe, they had canonically reasons to do so. And I don't think there's a problem with that. It's only when it appears that is universal or the default.

                            As a reader, you need to read such books critically and not take it as objective fact. But it is really easy to do so - and I think most players did.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            You can see that all the tribe books present their respective tribes as tolerant of metis when the corebook says they are not. This happens to some degree with every WoD faction, but it's especially prominent with Werewolf.
                            Completely agree. The finger is always pointed that it is someone else who has the problem. And I can't recall anyone IC ever defending the bad ways they treat Metis.

                            This tendency got worse in Revised when the Developer and authors clearly purged the Garou and the tribes of any Wyrm factions along with anything that put them into conflict because the Metaplot Railroad required it. I think it made things less interesting.

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                            • My disagreements over Children of Gaia isn't a case of a leftist closing ranks, I'm a right winger actually. In fact, I agree that a lot of Werewolf material over the years has been obnoxiously left leaning and that all too often left leaning writers are sympathizing with the werewolf faction that they are writing about and it is coloring their writing. All the more reason that we try to divorce the ideologies of the Garou from real world modern human (notably leftist American) ideologies. In part, my objection to CoG being SJW's or Antifa is that one thing that sets them apart from so many other Tribes is that they are less judgemental, more tolerant, more peaceful, less violent than so many other Tribes. Making them left wing extremists not only ties them too closely to human politics but undermines one of the things that I thought allowed them to stand out. I wont say that there aren't WW books that portray them this way, but I would disagree with that too.

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                              • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                                My disagreements over Children of Gaia isn't a case of a leftist closing ranks, I'm a right winger actually. In fact, I agree that a lot of Werewolf material over the years has been obnoxiously left leaning and that all too often left leaning writers are sympathizing with the werewolf faction that they are writing about and it is coloring their writing. All the more reason that we try to divorce the ideologies of the Garou from real world modern human (notably leftist American) ideologies. In part, my objection to CoG being SJW's or Antifa is that one thing that sets them apart from so many other Tribes is that they are less judgemental, more tolerant, more peaceful, less violent than so many other Tribes. Making them left wing extremists not only ties them too closely to human politics but undermines one of the things that I thought allowed them to stand out. I wont say that there aren't WW books that portray them this way, but I would disagree with that too.
                                I haven’t read the Tribebook, but from what I know of the CoG I agree with your analysis.


                                The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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