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Quastions about inhuman Knowledge Traits ( 6+ ) and Hypertech

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  • Quastions about inhuman Knowledge Traits ( 6+ ) and Hypertech

    I noticed few problems while reading the rules in M20&V20. How does their devices and knowledge work for others?


    1) Can someone explain how knowledge of physics 6+ works? What does a person begin to understand? How is this different from ordinary physics and what can we do with this knowledge?

    2) Hypertech/Biotech and non-mages. Let's say we have 3 ordinary people, vampire, fairy, ghost, fire spirit and werewolf. These 8 creatures have found the library of technocracy. They read and learned hypertech/biotech.
    - Can 3 ordinary (non-technomancer&non-tecnocracy) scientists create nanorobots? Will they be any different from those created by technomancers or technocracy?
    - Can a vampire who has learned biotech create a prosthesis and install it on another person?
    - Can a werewolf use laser cannons?
    - What are the main limitations of those who do not have an "avatar"? What can't they do without an avatar? Will the mechanisms created by them (non-awakened) differ from those created by the magicians?
    - What is the difference between "hypertech" created by sorcerersand non-sorcerers who just learned it?
    Last edited by Alphari; 08-14-2020, 02:21 PM.

  • #2
    2) Hypertech/biotech are basically mundane skills that are used to create magickal equipment used for enlightened 'magick'. Someone with these skills could handle a capital D Device (Hypertech talisman, has it's own arete), capital G Gadget (Hypertech charm, also uses it's own arete, but only works once.) , or other special equipment.
    I'd say they can, but wouldn't be able to do anything without their own arete score.

    Basic Prosthesis could be made and installed, but they wouldn't be anything special. If you wanted cybernetics, they would have to be made and installed by an awakened mage/enlightened technocrat.

    A werewolf could use a lasercanon Device if they were willing to.

    Those without an awakened avatar really can't do Magick. They are limited to hedge sorcery and mundane sciences.

    That said there's no stopping the storyteller from coming up with their own hedge sorcery rules, or just reskinning an existing one and using hypertech/biotech as the focuses.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Actual_Table View Post
      2)

      Those without an awakened avatar really can't do Magick.
      Right. But the problem is that this is mundane knowledge of hypertech. This is not magick, this is knowledge. That is why I want to understand what a vampire with knowledge of hypertech can do. The description of the skill says that it allows anyone to make some devices. Can someone with level 6+ hypertech create something? Or do I need to become a magician or sorcerer for this?

      But what stops a fairy or vampire from creating a tech hand?

      Comment


      • #4
        1) My personal interpretation (there's a thread about 6+ traits in the Mage forums IIRC) is that 6+ ratings are, generally, supernaturally gated. So the benefits of them come from some level of superhuman ability. For Knowledges, it's easier to approach this as a superhuman ability to connect dots than a superhuman ability to know more.

        So, for a normal person, if you hand them all the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, but don't show them the final picture, they'll eventually solve the puzzle. It's just going to take a lot of trial and error, until they get enough pieces filled in to start making more educated guesses about what the final picture is, and thus how to sort pieces. The higher your rating (for most WoD games this is covered by Enigmas), the more tricks you understand to speed up the process, but you're still following the same essential process even if you can go a lot faster. Once you hit Engimas 6+, your puzzle skills are so good that you're solving the puzzle in your head just by looking at the pieces, so that by the time you've separated out all the edge pieces, you've caught glimpse of enough of the others to know what the final image is by seeing how all the colors and shapes have to eventually interconnect.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Alphari View Post

          Right. But the problem is that this is mundane knowledge of hypertech. This is not magick, this is knowledge. That is why I want to understand what a vampire with knowledge of hypertech can do. The description of the skill says that it allows anyone to make some devices. Can someone with level 6+ hypertech create something? Or do I need to become a magician or sorcerer for this?

          But what stops a fairy or vampire from creating a tech hand?
          If you are buying into the premises of M20, where the rules for Hypertech are directly tied to the capacity to do (True) Magick or the hedge-sorcery-equivalents practiced by "Extraordinary Citizens." Sci-fi/"super" tech is basically just a different kind of Magick or hedge sorcery.

          If you want to include that in V20, seems there are three main ways to go about it:

          A) anyone who learns Hypertech needs at least one dot in a sorcery-equivalent, some kind of technomancy.

          B) Cut the Mage bits out of the M20 Hypertech rules and edit them as needed.

          C) Build your own rules from the ground up.

          Superhuman Intelligence, etc., simply has nothing to do with this, from a Mage perspective.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hypertech allows both mages and non-mages to understand Devices and other trinkets of technomagick. This doesn't traduce to a capability to create them (albeit those who do create them likely should have a few dots here), but MAY allow non-mages to operate some. And, as stated in M20, may allow mages to understand, and even *use*, technomagick of rival sects that employ a different technomantical Focus (but I don't think this equals being able to *use* said Focus for other purpose than activating Wonders)

            Let's talk a little about Wonders and Focus: Boiled down, Wonders are magical items created by mages, and to use a Wonder you don't always need Arete. Talismans and Charms can be activated and used by normal people (hence by everyone). You don't need to be a Mage to use them because these objects have their *own* magick. However, you need to believe in the Paradigm (Focus in M20) that created the magical item to be able to use them. Also it requires knowing how to use them

            In the technomancer arsenal, both Devices and Gadgets can be used by people who lack Arete. My understanding about how Hipertech enters the scene it's that the skill allows to bypass to some extent the limitation of having to share the Focus. Technocrats don't have the *same* Focus of an Etherite, but technomagick shares enough similarities that a Ctitizen that has Hipertech 3 could be able to *get* what the weird contraption does and try to use it. Also, some Devices and Gadges could/should require Hipertech to operate in the first place regardless of personal belief (you need to know how to use them).

            So, a vampire master of Hypertech can:

            A) Understand what a Technomancer or a technomantic Wonder does/it's doing. Where others see a mysterious glowing ball being manipulated by a crazed weirdo, you know pretty much what's happening

            B) Use Devices and Gadgets of all stripes

            C) Be invited at Etherite parties as someone that actually *understands* what they're talking about (well, as much as it's possible)

            You can't *create* Wonders with mere Knowledge.
            But for someone who plans to be *seriously* invested in the world of technomagick, it may be worth the dots.
            Last edited by Aleph; 08-14-2020, 10:16 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Aleph View Post
              Hypertech allows both mages and non-mages to understand Devices and other trinkets of technomagick. This doesn't traduce to a capability to create them (albeit those who do create them likely should have a few dots here), but MAY allow non-mages to operate some....

              ...You can't *create* Wonders with mere Knowledge.
              But for someone who plans to be *seriously* invested in the world of technomagick, it may be worth the dots.
              ...But the skill itself allows non mages to "make some Devices" as per the skill description. While mage books contradicting themselves is nothing new, I think the point of hypertech is to be the "Tech" equivalent of sorcery.

              You also don't really need to stress too much about the arete score thing though. Advanced tech IRL requires very specific tools to create and one of the rotes that can be put on a wonder is the creation of wonders, which is "Cannonically"(as far as any given "cannon" goes in oWOD) create their Device factories.

              You could just just give the hypertech a (secretly awakened)tool requirement, have a public branch of the syndicate sell that tool, and you're done. This would already mirrored to the real world considering custom computer-ware, bio-chemical, and even to-order DNA are already available public resources. Honestly, most people IRL are only stopped from making their own cyber-punk-esc utilities by their own lack of knowledge on the subject.

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              • #8
                Hypertech doesn't let you create Wonders without being at least a Sorcerer.

                Hypertech lets you build the shell of a Wonder, but without magic, it doesn't work even though it's constructed using the same principles. So non-mage Technocrats and Etherite lab assistants take Hypertech to make parts and items for mages to turn into proper Wonders.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                  Hypertech doesn't let you create Wonders without being at least a Sorcerer.

                  Hypertech lets you build the shell of a Wonder, but without magic, it doesn't work even though it's constructed using the same principles. So non-mage Technocrats and Etherite lab assistants take Hypertech to make parts and items for mages to turn into proper Wonders.
                  ..But you don't need the mage for that even if you enforce a True Magick requirement on hypertech. You can use a specialized wonder to substitute the mage if one is required, and that's more thematic with the technocracy's end goals anyway.

                  Think of it this way: Wrenches are a common everyday tools that require complex machines to shape the metal required for their component parts. If you instead think of a "wrench" as a wonder created with the prime 4 effect "Create Wonder", created via another wonder, then non awakened being able to make machines with it makes sense. The non-awakened simply have the knowledge required to go through the motions of the rituals "Create Device" or "Repair Device" while the wonder does all the heavy lifting.

                  In the same vein, a non-awakened wouldn't need a mage to make hyper-tech if the have the necessary tools to do the heavy lifting. It may be that they need a graviton field generator or flux impermeable metals or what-have-you(that they need to buy from a syndicate front company), but needing mages present to do the work isn't required.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                    You can use a specialized wonder to substitute the mage if one is required, and that's more thematic with the technocracy's end goals anyway.
                    You can use a specialized Wonder that's capable of allow a non-awakened Hypertech knowing character to build the components of a device and enchant a specific effect on them... as long as someone is supplying this setup with a steady access to Quintessence/Tass.

                    So, yes, an unenlightened gunsmith on an VE cruiser can have a specialized workshop powered directly by the ship's drive to make and customize plasma rifles for the space marines rather than having one of the VE's enlightened operatives do it. It's very far removed from just having Hypertech and building magical items.

                    Wrenches are a common everyday tools that require complex machines to shape the metal required for their component parts.
                    This is... a very bad analogy. We use complex machines to mass produce wrenches, not because you need them to make wrenches at all.

                    If you instead think of a "wrench" as a wonder created with the prime 4 effect "Create Wonder",...
                    Create Wonder can't enchant a spell you can't cast. A Wonder that just has Create Wonder built into it is useless for unawakened characters since they can't cast spells to encode with it. At a minimum, as described above, you need to add at least one spell into Wonder as well for this to work just to make Wonders that do that one thing... and it's all a very Quintessence heavy process which is hard to manage without having someone with Prime around.

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                    • #11
                      I'd imagine the Hypertech knowledges are like having 'rituals' in WTA


                      A Caveat for vampires being that they must have an equal or higher level of (sorcery) comparable to a mage's sphere ratings to be able to work with Hypertech knowledges. (They may brush it off as their own bodies interference with the delicate procedures needed)


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        This is... a very bad analogy. We use complex machines to mass produce wrenches, not because you need them to make wrenches at all.
                        Technically, in mage's setting at least, All technology is true magic modifies to work for the masses. So to make the first wrench required a mage who then taught other mages and to let others make wrenches, the guys created wonders that were also wonders imbued with the spells necessary to make a Wrench.


                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        Create Wonder can't enchant a spell you can't cast. A Wonder that just has Create Wonder built into it is useless for unawakened characters since they can't cast spells to encode with it. At a minimum, as described above, you need to add at least one spell into Wonder as well for this to work just to make Wonders that do that one thing... and it's all a very Quintessence heavy process which is hard to manage without having someone with Prime around.
                        It can though. Wonders can be pre-built with their own Arete score, then used to created a limited number of wonders depending on what spheres and effects are put on the wonder.

                        Besides, if that wasn't possible then the technocracies factories wouldn't make sense(as they break the requirement of permanent willpower for most wonders) and a fundamental aspect of the mage setting would be impossible(technology working at all). There are no other mechanics given for a true magic effect becoming mundane besides reality zones and those don't actually change how reality functions(they change what true magic is paradoxed).

                        Quintessence isn't necessarily an issue when you consider sphere>Prime conversions. The wrench in this case would be imbued with a Forces>Prime effect, which would convert the rotational force applied in using the wrench into the quintessence needed to build or repair the wonder.

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                        • #13
                          I've never seen the idea of 'Mages made all the technology' as anything more than the mages being dick heads who'd claim wheels turn because they made it so. Hypertech is either just outside of the laws of current tech or mundane physics, and the mages are stretching things with magic to get it to work.

                          Honestly I get confused with all the Device/Gadget/Whatever terminology.
                          As the OP said: how would each splat use various grades of hypertech?


                          Like... The technocracy has... what do they call it... enlightened personel? Technocratic hedge wizards? Everyone else can be technocratic hedge wizards yes?
                          Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 08-16-2020, 11:29 AM.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            I'd imagine the Hypertech knowledges are like having 'rituals' in WTA
                            Except not, because it's not part of a ritual magic system where you can use it to learn new powers you don't have. It has some similarities in that you don't need to be a Garou/Fera to learn it, but that doesn't do you much good since Rites don't do anything for you if you're just a normal person (or a vampire, etc.).

                            Hypertech is more like Occult: you know a lot about a niche subject that most people don't. If you're also a supernatural of the right persuasion, Occult might be useful for you beyond knowing about supernatural stuff, but not every supernatural is going to have powers that use Occult in their rolls. Characters with Hypertech know about advanced-beyond-modern-capabilities technology capable with magic, and how to identify the underlying principles being such tech (so high Hypertech characters can use stuff outside their normal world view because they can figure out the technological logic behind it even if it uses different principles; assuming they can use the tech with the powers they have), technomages can use Hypertech to great effect as per the Mage magic rules.

                            A Caveat for vampires being that they must have an equal or higher level of (sorcery) comparable to a mage's sphere ratings to be able to work with Hypertech knowledges. (They may brush it off as their own bodies interference with the delicate procedures needed)
                            This makes no sense with how Hypertech is presented. You don't need Sphere ratings have dots in Hypertech. The only time your specific Hypertech dot rating matters this way is for Mages that have Hypertech as one of their Instruments and you apply an optional rule that when you link Instruments to an Ability, you can't cast Sphere magic higher than your rating in it.

                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            I've never seen the idea of 'Mages made all the technology' as anything more than the mages being dick heads who'd claim wheels turn because they made it so.
                            Mostly correct

                            Honestly I get confused with all the Device/Gadget/Whatever terminology.
                            There are break downs everywhere. Wonders is the general Mage term for "magical item," everything else is just a sub-category within. What's important to this discussion are the distinctions for technomagic (only because we're talking Hypertech), and for magical items that can be used without being a mage (because most Wonders require a mage to use, but sometimes they make stuff for non-mages to use and that's an important distinction and relevant to non-mages using Hypertech stuff).

                            As the OP said: how would each splat use various grades of hypertech?
                            There aren't "grades" of Hypertech. There's just how well you understand how to apply the principles of technology beyond the limits of the prime Reality Consensus. By itself, that's all Hypertech dots represent: knowing the theories about how a class of things work.

                            How well non-mages can use Hypertech based Wonders is designated by how that Wonder is created. If it's made properly, anyone (even people with Hypertech 0!) can use it assuming they can use the mundane equivalent (a Hypertech based computer still operates like a computer and thus you can use Computers to operate it even if you have no idea how it works inside the box). These are binary states: either it's made for non-mages to be capable of using or it isn't, and either it's made to be used without Hypertech understanding or it isn't (lots of technomages don't want just anyone using their fancy gear after all). Hypertech dots are just how well you can figure out how things work if you need to understand how things work.

                            Like... The technocracy has... what do they call it... enlightened personel? Technocratic hedge wizards? Everyone else can be technocratic hedge wizards yes?
                            M20 hasn't really touched on Sorcerers as part of mage society much. But yes, the Technocrats have operatives that are not Enlightened, but have abilities beyond normal Sleepers. Theoretically RDs could be taught to be such (though the Union is likely to get very shooty if they find out about this). You're more likely to see this from the Tradition's technomages.

                            Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                            Technically, in mage's setting at least, All technology is true magic modifies to work for the masses.
                            False. Technology is a root to bring magic to the masses. Technology, however, vastly predates this process. While mages can argue about the exact parameters, humans are completely capable of bringing about technology on their own (as are more than a few non-human animals). Ultimately there are still the Earthly Foundations, and anyone that tries to build tech that is based in those principles will find that it works.

                            So to make the first wrench required a mage who then taught other mages and to let others make wrenches...
                            Again, no. At best the first tools were created when there was no division between mage and sleeper, and everyone could enact their will through understanding, but that's a in-game mystic theory, not a fact.

                            It can though. Wonders can be pre-built with their own Arete score, then used to created a limited number of wonders depending on what spheres and effects are put on the wonder.
                            Did you actually read my full post? Which included, in the part you quoted, that you'd have to enchant a Wonder with both Create Wonder and a specific spell to be able to grant a non-mage the power to make a Wonder with actual abilities?

                            Quintessence isn't necessarily an issue when you consider sphere>Prime conversions. The wrench in this case would be imbued with a Forces>Prime effect, which would convert the rotational force applied in using the wrench into the quintessence needed to build or repair the wonder.
                            Considering (1) how much Quintessence Wonder creation uses up and (2) how little Pattern draining for Quint nets you, the point still stands that outside of high end technomagic facilities, this just doesn't work.

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                            • #15
                              I see
                              further questions:

                              So Glass walkers kinda-maybe have their own hypertech in the form of techno fetishes. Does that count as hypertech?

                              Could a vampire not create Hypertech devices with thaumaturgy and a techno-centric paradigm? They too can create fetishes at least. There aren't presently mechanics for this but the magical theory suggests it could be done.

                              Do technocratic sorcerers get numina/can they get numina..


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