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  • #16
    Originally posted by Koronus
    In VTM and again in Hunted Hunters II it is stated, that every other person has Virtues and Humanity too.
    Wait, what? Why would humans have Humanity? They're already human. Vampires having Humanity as part of their in-universe and general meta aspect is so that the beast every Kindred bares can be reined in or they find an alternative Path to achieve it. Humans in VTM alone only have Humanity for gamesake reasons for it purely being in VTM, but nowhere else does the Humanity mechanic exist for the other lines because it isn't needed. Humans in Mage don't have Humanity because its a VTM mechanic, Humans in Werewolf don't have Humanity because its a VTM mechanic, Wraith, Hunter (the actual Hunter line, not the supplement you mentioned), and Mummy don't have it.

    Mages and Technocrats especially wouldn't have Humanity (because technically its a Path, but the default one because human turned vampires still remember their old real humanity) for that fact that its a sort of way of thought. Awakened operate on Paradigms and wouldn't possess Humanity in the sense of what we see in VTM. If I were to run a crossover game Humanity for all the "human-like" splats (Imbued, Awakened, Ghoul, or the other mini splats) wouldn't be necessary at all.


    Jade Kingdom Warrior

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

      Wait, what? Why would humans have Humanity? They're already human.
      because there are powers that interract with those stats,
      humans do not risk frenzy or going wassail, but their virtues still play a roll,

      they roll their humanity against daimonion for example,
      they need self control to resist frenzy when a vampire uses animalism 5,

      their virtues also determine their behavior and attitude,
      serial killers and psychopaths tend to have low conscience,
      a human with low self control are more prone to anger and reckless action

      but since their beast is weak, they don't risk going on frenzy or going wassail


      -

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      • #18
        More exactly humans do not have a beast. So for them execpt getting influenced by cainite powers or even ghouled or embraced it is showing no real effect. But yeah humans have humanity because they are humans though because how rare it plays a role it often got forgotten. Technically you would needed it high for True Faith too but with it even get ignored by inquisitors and the other gamelines I would ignore the humanity requirement for it.


        As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
        First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
        Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Koronus
          Or mayby it just shows that those mages are more mage then human. Path of Enlightment is something that is actually as I said unneeded for them unless they get ghouled because each V20 and HH2 are saying, every human has humanity and there are heinous humans that have low humanity scores but those are not bothering them because they have no beast inside them.
          Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

          because there are powers that interract with those stats,
          humans do not risk frenzy or going wassail, but their virtues still play a roll,

          they roll their humanity against daimonion for example,
          they need self control to resist frenzy when a vampire uses animalism 5,

          their virtues also determine their behavior and attitude,
          serial killers and psychopaths tend to have low conscience,
          a human with low self control are more prone to anger and reckless action

          but since their beast is weak, they don't risk going on frenzy or going wassail

          And here's why Humanity hurts the themes of Mage (unless, perhaps you give them Paths/Roads). Low Humanity isn't just "being more mage than human"...it comes with the assumption that the character it's a moral failure. Comparing low humanity mages with serial killers easily influenced by evil, and high humanity mages with Saints, would do an extreme disservice to Mage characters becuase the game assumes their alternate moralities are every bit as valid as that of the Consensus.
          Saying "if your mage doesn't follow consensual morality, your mage it's less human and should be bagged with all the evildoers of the world"...it's not something I would like to hear as a player, and it kinda is what giving a player a low Humanity entalis (precisely because that's what it usually means to vampire and the way it's powers are written)

          M20 allows to affect the Humanity of vampires with Entropy 5...curiously it mentions Humanity in relation with vampires, not with humans or mages. Perhaps because the game doesn't contemplate nor need Humanity, not even when it's mentioned - this is not a mistake, but I'm pretty sure that if Mage had a similar system, different Traditions of mages would follow different tenets. In fact, there's a similar system in one of the ST handbooks, and it does give mages something akin to Paths (that reference the Avatar Essences)
          Last edited by Aleph; 08-26-2020, 03:28 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Aleph View Post

            M20 allows to affect the Humanity of vampires with Entropy 5...curiously it mentions Humanity in relation with vampires, not with humans or mages. Perhaps because the game doesn't contemplate nor need Humanity, not even when it's mentioned - this is not a mistake, but I'm pretty sure that if Mage had a similar system, different Traditions of mages would follow different tenets. In fact, there's a similar system in one of the ST handbooks, and it does give mages something akin to Paths (that reference the Avatar Essences)
            Aleph, would you or anyone happen to remember which book that is? I would like to read it and see it for myself.

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            • #21
              I tought I had seen it in the Basic. But I can't find it, so I was wrong. Odd, because I had tougth that to be a particularly bizarre thing to have.

              Maybe I got confused with what's in HTDT about breaking belief (that sends vampires into Frenzy).

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                I tought I had seen it in the Basic. But I can't find it, so I was wrong. Odd, because I had tougth that to be a particularly bizarre thing to have.

                Maybe I got confused with what's in HTDT about breaking belief (that sends vampires into Frenzy).
                It is definataly not in Basic. I read that book over and over because it is the only new Mage Book that we on DACHL can get.


                As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
                First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
                Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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                • #23
                  Prob. I just read too much into the "Losing Religion" sidebar of HDYDT.

                  On the other hand, If you're curious about the "similar" system I mentioned: That's on the ST: Handbook of Revised. Under Echoes: An alternative system of Paradox and Resonance.
                  It's frankly, an ugly system. It has no real rules, and yet manages to be very convoluted. The mage has to juggle 6 "paths" at the same time (3 actually, the other 3 are for when you slide below 0 in one). Day it's bassically Humanity (or so says the book, well, it says it's "similar" to Vampire's humanity), except that if you follow it too much you become paradoxically less human (on the 11th level you vanish to heaven and become an angel or something like that)
                  Last edited by Aleph; 08-28-2020, 04:39 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                    Prob. I just read too much into the "Losing Religion" sidebar of HDYDT.

                    On the other hand, If you're curious about the "similar" system I mentioned: That's on the ST: Handbook of Revised. Under Echoes: An alternative system of Paradox and Resonance.
                    It's frankly, an ugly system. It has no real rules, and yet manages to be very convoluted. The mage has to juggle 6 "paths" at the same time (3 actually, the other 3 are for when you slide below 0 in one). Day it's bassically Humanity (or so says the book, well, it says it's "similar" to Vampire's humanity), except that if you follow it too much you become paradoxically less human (on the 11th level you vanish to heaven and become an angel or something like that)
                    Thanks! I'll read it when i get home. Maybe there's something to be salvaged there.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                      And here's why Humanity hurts the themes of Mage (unless, perhaps you give them Paths/Roads). Low Humanity isn't just "being more mage than human"...it comes with the assumption that the character it's a moral failure. Comparing low humanity mages with serial killers easily influenced by evil, and high humanity mages with Saints, would do an extreme disservice to Mage characters becuase the game assumes their alternate moralities are every bit as valid as that of the Consensus.
                      Saying "if your mage doesn't follow consensual morality, your mage it's less human and should be bagged with all the evildoers of the world"...it's not something I would like to hear as a player, and it kinda is what giving a player a low Humanity entalis (precisely because that's what it usually means to vampire and the way it's powers are written)
                      Honestly I find that humanity doesn't even help the themes of Vampire very much. It just doesn't model what they want to model very well. Morallity is such a complex topic that reducing it to a single 10-0 good-bad track creates more problems then it solves. Every other splat manages to work in moral questions and themes without such a clunky system.

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                      • #26
                        I think humanity only really works in the context of player characters. It gives something for the player to focus on that acts as a reminder that, at least at first, they're not really supposed to be playing completely inhuman monsters. It also provides a mechanism for that descent, which I think is very useful. The idea that it's a conscious effort for a vampire to act human is a good one.

                        It doesn't make any sense for mortal characters though, because humanity isn't supposed to be a struggle for actual humans.

                        And I really don't think it works for NPCs either (except, at best, as a visual reminder that this guy's supposed to be a callous dick). NPCs are generally static by nature, designed to facilitate the player characters' journey. Paths can be fun, but I've always felt they worked better as a roleplaying guide than a strict gaming mechanism.

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                        • #27
                          The Dark Ages Road system is a bit better because it leaves room for multiple moralities. But I agree with your points about humans and NPCs.

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                          • #28
                            Well just an update on this one. There was more work to do for it than I thought but my friends and me re-wrote the base WOD rules and the core books we used to make the rules compactable with each other. We started a game with a SIn Eater, Kindred, Mage, Garou and Demon. To be honest its been a blast some things can get a little bit tricky at time but overall its great.

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                            • #29
                              Anyone know where one can exchange larger PDF files with fans to get feedback?

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