Fan 20th editions for the remaining game-lines

[Prometheas]

Since 20th anniversaries have stopped and Demon the fallen wasn't likely to get a 20th anyway, I kinda want to make rules for a DTF 20th edition myself. DTF in particular had a host of problems that could have used another shot at editing/revising. Anyone interested in helping me iron out the worst kinks?

Some of the most major problems are:
-It was narrowly focused on abrahamic mythology and tried to force the rest of WOD into that mold.
-The factions weren't fleshed out enough.(Ravagers and Earthbound being too similar for example, Redeemers barely had any identity or purpose)
-Many mechanics were unbalanced or inconsistent.(Malefactor factory and Devil pyromaniacs, Torment made different powers less or more useful with no real pattern)

Another thing I want to do is create a middle ground between the mechanics of DTF and Devil's Due(Dark Ages DTF). I love how Devil's due handled torment and Apocolyptic Form traits, but it made demons very similar to each other unlike the distinct houses in DTF.

• So to tackle the first major problem: why not make the background lore closer to early Judaism(recognized there were other gods, but thought their's was the best) or Gnostic Christianity(recognized there were other gods and thought their's was a jerk[and maybe got mugged by jesus], so they swapped for one they liked better)? "The Creator" could be one god among many, but they were the ones who made the first humans and other gods may or may not have copied the design to make their own later. She can still be "all powerful" as a god, but this would at least let DTF fit with the rest of WOD without stepping on other games toes or ruining the major themes of DTF

• Some factions need to be changed more than others to make them more distinct, individuals changes are as follows

1. Ravagers are pretty redundant when paired with earthbound, so I'd change them completely. Personally, I'd make them the faction that's unified by the fact that they want nothing to due with The Creator, Lucifer, or the war with heaven anymore and have jumped ship. The faction would now be made of Demons trying to party it before the end days come, those building doomsday bunkers to try to survive/wait out the Apocalypse, and those trying to build an escape route out of creation for or "underground railroads" out of the warzones when things go down.
2. Redeemers I'd change so that the factions isn't completely unified on what "Redemption" means. All demons in the faction agree that the war with heaven when to far, but there's now a growing schism between the Fallen who think "Too Far" was when they pushed early humanity too hard and ruined their connection to humanity as a whole and those who argue siding with Lucifer against god was the deciding moment. Needless to say both sides view the others as traitors. The faction is building up resources, connections, and allies as measures to better help humanity or "Redeem" members on the surface, but behind closed doors the faction is getting ready for all out civil war as both sides seek to purge the "Heretics" in their ranks
3. Faustions need some slight tweaks in that they never actually do anything to reach their goal of unlocking humanities full potential in canon. A good way to amend this would be to have them use pacts and knowledge of creation to teach their thralls to become sorcerers or(rarely) awaken as mages.
4. Cryptics would also need as slight tweak to pair with the earlier lore tweak, in that they are trying to pursue the knowledge of other gods and supernatural powers to escape/slay/become equals to the creator(depending on the demon. This can be represented with them aggressively pursuing information on and pacts with the other supernaturals in WOD or exploring places alien to the fallen(Like the Middle/High Umbra, The Dreaming, Hollow Earth, Etc.)
5. Luciferians can be left mostly alone.
6. Ditto for Earthbound.

• For mechanics I want to separate Apocalyptic form traits from Lore like in DTF, but have number of available Apocalyptic traits Torment and Pacts like in Devil's Due. I'd also like to reshuffle how lores work and interact with the backgrounds eminence, paragon, and mastery:

1. Apocolyptic traits should deal with passive abilities, resistances, and increasing dice pools. If a Fallen buys a trait using torment, then they can't remove that torment until they give up that trait. On the other hand, traits bought with pacts are lost the moment that the mortal stops breaks the pact or dies.
2. All lores now last for 1 turn, can only affect 1 target, rolls are made to determine the damage or effectiveness of a power and faith can't be spent for extra dice by default anymore(See backgrounds below).
3. Eminance now functions "almost" similarly to Garou ranks with some exceptions. Eminence now limits the amount of lores a fallen can use with the Paragon or Mastery advantages(which have also been changed). Eminence is the ability that all demons possess to increase in station based on personal merits(unlike static angels), it is fueled an ancient contract between all demons and Lucifer himself. A fallen raises in Eminence when another fallen at least 2 ranks higher spends a dot of permanent faith and performs a ritual that recognizes a deed they have performed. Any fallen may also loose Eminence if another fallen of at least 1 higher rank spends a permanent faith dot and performs a ritual of chastisement for a failure or mistake.
4. Paragon and Mastery have been changed. Paragon now allow a fallen to spend up to their Paragon rating in faith points to either add dice to or re-roll dice on a lore roll at 1 faith point per die added/re-rolled. Mastery now allows a fallen to spend up to their mastery rating in faith points to extend either the duration or number of targets of a lore by a multiple of their permanent faith rating for each point spent. Paragon costs[new rating x5] XP to increase, while Mastery costs [new rating x10 and cannot be higher than Paragon], and fallen can only have a combined Paragon+Mastery rating up to their permanent Faith.
5. Fallen whose mortal host "dies" can possess one of their mortal thralls to avoid falling into the abyss. Doing so mean that their attribute and abilities change to that of the new host, but Lores, Pacts, Apocolyptic Traits, and Torment all carry over. The Fallen's permanent faith shrinks to that of the new host's faith potential.
6. Earthbound and Fallen thralls work differently. Fallen empower their thralls using the thralls inherent faith potential(standard DTF rules), but Earthboud are only able to infuse their thralls with their own taint. Earthbound Thralls use Devil's Due rules save they use faith-potential instead of resolve(normally capped at 5) and they can spend XP to learn their earthbound master's known lores up to the third dot

[Eldagusto]

Hmmm My ears are perked!


One thing I feel it was a mistake when they just said Garou travel into the Underworld, I feel there was more potential in keeping them as they are and tying it into the mystery that God hid from the Fallen.

And I feel we need rules on growing stats past mortal level, and some sort of incentive for gathering more faith then you can hold. And they need some sort of Arch Lore level, or some sort of lore beast to represent the Primordial powers of the Lore from before they were lessened. And some new Lores, and the implications of new lores.

[Koronus]

Hmmm My ears are perked!


One thing I feel it was a mistake when they just said Garou travel into the Underworld, I feel there was more potential in keeping them as they are and tying it into the mystery that God hid from the Fallen.

And I feel we need rules on growing stats past mortal level, and some sort of incentive for gathering more faith then you can hold. And they need some sort of Arch Lore level, or some sort of lore beast to represent the Primordial powers of the Lore from before they were lessened. And some new Lores, and the implications of new lores.

Interessting. I never read DTF because in our group we waited for D20 that will get translated but from what we know in our world it whas that Malfeas IS the Hell but Jahwe is just beside Gaia (and the rest of the planets in the system including Luna) only one of the remaining pure ones that made the world but the only one beside Gaia, Luna and Helios that is still halfway awake so he can do something. The rest of the "gods" of true faith givers are just minor one like the Kami in Noragami that only exist as long there are people strongly believe in them.

[Reasor]

I'd give every House at least one Lore that has at least one power that can deal aggravated damage. They fought a war against each other, for Pete's sake, a Defiler had plenty of time to figure out how to call down a targeted lightning bolt with Lore of Storms.

[Prometheas]

Hmmm My ears are perked!


One thing I feel it was a mistake when they just said Garou travel into the Underworld, I feel there was more potential in keeping them as they are and tying it into the mystery that God hid from the Fallen.

I wished they handled that aspect similar to how Devil's Due demons react to fae, they had no idea what they were or where they came from and they absolutely Terrified the supposed "masters" of creation.

And I feel we need rules on growing stats past mortal level, and some sort of incentive for gathering more faith then you can hold. And they need some sort of Arch Lore level, or some sort of lore beast to represent the Primordial powers of the Lore from before they were lessened. And some new Lores, and the implications of new lores.

Devil's due had beyond human traits covered completely. Fallen can buy up to their Permanent Resolve/Faith in attribute or abilities and could go beyond that by spending apocalyptic form slots. It's a very well rounded system, I can't recommend the book enough.

Arch-lores I think should be covered by something closer to mastery in the earthbound book, otherwise I think it wouldn't be distinct enough from things like elder powers VTM.I like the idea that the Fallen were reduced by cutting their connection with the creator, but made up for it by working together,cleverly using of their remaining powers, and from the assistance of humanity.

Maybe they could use something similar to the cult background to increase the scope of their powers. You could also let Fallen wait to harvest faith from a contract if their faith pool is already full, that way they can refuel themselves off untapped contracts. On the other hand, I'd want to make some of their powers more faith hungry to balance that.

[Eldagusto]

Man I really need to get around to purchasing devils dues on pdf! I was always a fan of the power/enlightenment trait being the new trait cap.

Yeah an Arch Lore level would work wonderfully as a sort of meta mastery, improving and expanding the lower powers.


I don’t think every houses lore needed an agg source, one could always get the lore of other houses after all and some houses didn’t specialize necessarily in combat.

[kalinara]

I hate to be that guy, but I'm not sure I understand the point of trying to update Demon the Fallen when you're trying to discard the whole crux of the game.

It's like trying to play Werewolf the Apocalypse without Gaia or the Triad. You can do it, but then it's not really Werewolf the Apocalypse anymore.

[Prometheas]

I hate to be that guy, but I'm not sure I understand the point of trying to update Demon the Fallen when you're trying to discard the whole crux of the game.

It's like trying to play Werewolf the Apocalypse without Gaia or the Triad. You can do it, but then it's not really Werewolf the Apocalypse anymore.

What do you mean? What was removed that was important to the "Crux" of the game?

[Trategos_Sol]

I had some ideas as well some time ago (see post #9) on this thread:

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...ld-you-do-d-tf

Really hope they reconsider and do a D20

[kalinara]

What do you mean? What was removed that was important to the "Crux" of the game?

The Abrahamic stuff IS the game. The game is that we're playing Fallen Angels, who were involved in the Creation of the World/Humanity and Fell for it. The core themes of Damnation, Salvation, Redemption and the like, as executed in the rule books are very Christian in concept. And there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes those things can be very compelling. There's a reason so many people enjoy Paradise Lost.

If you take that stuff away, then you might as well be playing Demon the Descent. Or maybe Dark Ages Fae.

Folks make a big deal about the fact that Demon somehow imposes a singular mythos on the World of Darkness, but the fact of the matter is that every game does that. Vampire the Masquerade is as Abrahamic as Demon is, fundamentally, with Caine and Lilith and generations. Wraith and Orpheus also bring in Eve and Abel in their respective endgames, though admittedly that's easy to ignore.

Werewolf does the same thing as Demon does, but in the opposite direction: The Triat and the Wyrm impose a pseudo-pagan cosmology that is completely incompatible with Vampire, Hunter, or Wraith. Mage's Consensual Reality destroys the themes of Werewolf. And we probably shouldn't even get into what Changeling does to the other splat lines.

The World of Darkness doesn't fit together. The games are fundamentally not built to allow that. You can definitely play splats in the same universe, but at some point, you're going to have to decide who's "right", and Demon's no worse about that than Werewolf or Mage are.

I mean, obviously, you should do what appeals to you, but I don't really see the point of a 20th Anniversary version of Demon that seems to want to get rid of the entire concept of the game. But I'll hop out of the thread since no one needs my negativity when they're enjoying your work.

[Prometheas]

The Abrahamic stuff IS the game. The game is that we're playing Fallen Angels, who were involved in the Creation of the World/Humanity and Fell for it. The core themes of Damnation, Salvation, Redemption and the like, as executed in the rule books are very Christian in concept. And there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes those things can be very compelling. There's a reason so many people enjoy Paradise Lost.

If you take that stuff away, then you might as well be playing Demon the Descent. Or maybe Dark Ages Fae.....

It's a fair criticism honestly.

I wasn't personally sure how to fit together the Fallen being the creators of everything with the rest of WOD without a square-peg>round-hole situation. Everything else in WOD leaves enough room for things they don't know, vampires don't go to the spirit world, werewolves avoid cities when they can,wraiths are stuck in the underworld, and mage kinda acknowledge everything and don't at the same time. The fallen being there when everything is created forces you to either play by their cosmology or trash it completely.

Weirdly enough, neither judaism nor christianity were originally monotheistic(only one god). They started henotheistic(other god's exist, but ours is the best/the creator) and the monotheistic elements were created in later schisms or conflicts with other religions.

[KnightFenrirWulfhart]

It's not about the fact that in our world the Abrahamic religions weren't completely monotheistic in the beginning, because in Demon they are straight up said to be a creation of Lucifer, so that fact isn't really important in the WoD.
Demon also gives a very good answer to your square peg round whole dilemma. Reality used to be a /lot/ more complex and malleable during the beginning times. The Demons are just a very distinct remnant of a powerful set of layers of reality that held together when reality began to calcify into the WoD. Vampire, Wraith, and Demon are all (probably] results of that divine layer of reality where they created reality.
(Also I always read it as Mages being the humans that Demons awoke eons ago, and Changelings being the dreaming echoes of the Demons before they were imprisoned in the Abyss. That's what I personally headcanon anyways for that.)
I would personally just really highlight that Demons are aware of the "Layers of Reality" concept than the other splats. It would give them a sort of "I don't remember that from then.... hmm... probably some reflection of [insert angelic principle here]. Yeah, let's go with that. Hi, would you care to make a deal?" Demons are a lot like Mages in that regard, as I would make it. Dangerously curious about the things they dont remember, and dangerously cunning about learning how to use it to their benefit.
(I apologize for any rambling, I'm sick and this is a new phone keyboard.)

[Prometheas]

It's not about the fact that in our world the Abrahamic religions weren't completely monotheistic in the beginning, because in Demon they are straight up said to be a creation of Lucifer, so that fact isn't really important in the WoD.
Demon also gives a very good answer to your square peg round whole dilemma. Reality used to be a /lot/ more complex and malleable during the beginning times. The Demons are just a very distinct remnant of a powerful set of layers of reality that held together when reality began to calcify into the WoD. Vampire, Wraith, and Demon are all (probably] results of that divine layer of reality where they created reality.
(Also I always read it as Mages being the humans that Demons awoke eons ago, and Changelings being the dreaming echoes of the Demons before they were imprisoned in the Abyss. That's what I personally headcanon anyways for that.)
I would personally just really highlight that Demons are aware of the "Layers of Reality" concept than the other splats. It would give them a sort of "I don't remember that from then.... hmm... probably some reflection of [insert angelic principle here]. Yeah, let's go with that. Hi, would you care to make a deal?" Demons are a lot like Mages in that regard, as I would make it. Dangerously curious about the things they dont remember, and dangerously cunning about learning how to use it to their benefit.
(I apologize for any rambling, I'm sick and this is a new phone keyboard.)

Eh, I like rambling.

I disagree with demon providing an answer, in that if you accept demon's perspective then the world of darkness is entirely abrahamic and all other creation myth(along with a large chunk of their history) from other splats are outright wrong. Even making reality layered doesn't fix this because it was the angels and the creator that made the layers in the first place. Unlike other splats that leave enough unknown in their own lore that things are more up to interpretation, DTF can only be completely Right(and making everyone else wrong) or completely Wrong(and thus calling into question whether they're even angels in the first place).

I like the idea of presenting that other gods exist, even if they weren't "The Creator", for the specific reason that it allows Demon to be somewhat right and very wrong like everyone else. That's also why I brought up the Henotheism point, because DTF could be built from a Henotheistic lens as much as a Monotheistic one. Heck, even DTF's default "Creator" is actually part of a pair rather than alone.

[Shakanaka]

The World of Darkness doesn't fit together. The games are fundamentally not built to allow that.

And that's what Demon COULD have been as the final line before oWoD stopped; An adequate explanation for the creation of WoD and how all the splats relate to one another. Instead the entirety of DTF is a bible class RPG with nothing interesting about it. Part of what makes WoD unique and interesting is that it not only lets you play as these supernatural entities (Mage, Werewolf, Fae, Vampire, Mummy, Wraith/Ghost etc.), but it turns the usual tropes on their head in how they are enacted (with of course some elements of their former originality still involved too).

The thing is before Demon, none of the splats were exactly right about what was what and it was good like that. So WoD could definitely fit together (besides only VTM was large incompatible since its entire motto centers around Abrahamic mythology.. but to be fair it was the first splat, but after VTM with other lines this was stopped). Now Demon comes along and basically is "nope, this is what exactly happened" without explaining anything. Somethings about Vampire, but beyond that it didn't explain Werewolf, Mage, Changeling, Mummy, KotE, Hunter and many more things. FFS, Demon talks about multilayer realities but they don't even know about or can traverse the Umbra.. WTF. It was a garbage closure line for the end of oWoD. You can't use the "The World of Darkness doesn't fit together" excuse when Demon is predicated on being the big end line to deal with the creation of oWoD, but when looking into it none of that was done.

[Prometheas]

Okay to come back to this topic, Let's talk about Lores and Apocalyptic Form traits. Specifically the High Torment/Low Torment effects on lores and apocalyptic form.

Personally felt that having torment effect powers is a cool concept, but the mechanics behind it are really messy.

Apocolyptic Forms could be fixed with Devil's Due/Fan DTF20 "form point" rules by only allowing "High Torment" traits to be bought with Torment and "Low Torment" traits to be bought with pacts/taints.

Lore are a different beast altogether though and aren't helped by the fact that DTF's core rules aren't consistent on whether "High Torment" lores should be Less Powerful(to represent the demon losing control) or More Powerful(to represent the Temptation of giving into torment). I personally see gaining more Apocalyptic form points and becoming an inhuman monster as enough to fulfill the "temptation" potion of that deal, So I think high Torment should make lores less reliable.

Here's a proposed mechanic for Torment-Lore interaction:

1. Compare a lore's difficulty to the character's torment. If the number rolled on any dice meet or exceed both the "normal" difficulty and the character's torment, then it counts as a success like normal.
2. If it only meets/exceeds one of either the lore difficulty or the character's torment rating, then it counts as a failure.
3. If the roll fails to meet/exceed Both the character's Torment and the difficulty, then it's a botch that fulfills the intened use of the lore in a "Monkey's Paw" sort of way.(Examples: have the demon damaged by the lore as well as their target if they were attempting combat. Have the demon end up destroying whatever objects they are using the lore on in a way that leaves obvious evidence. Have the demon's lore cause horrible side effects for the person they were healing/blessing).
4. The only exception to this being the lores of Chaos, Contamination, and Violation that were developed by the earthbound.