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Any chance the WoD and CoD settings will ever be squished into one universe?

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  • Any chance the WoD and CoD settings will ever be squished into one universe?

    Like DC did with Earth-One and Earth-Two back in the Eighties?


    The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

  • #2
    Daeva becomes Toreador
    Gangrel
    Mekhet becomes Lasombra
    Nosferatu
    Ventrue

    Invictus merges with the Camarilla
    Carthians become a faction of the Anarchs
    Circle of the Crone, Lancea et Sanctum, Ordo Dracul all become independent sects

    The two different versions of werewolves, mages, changelings, mummies and demons all coexist with each other (maybe the Atlantean mages become a separate Tradition with their own Paradigm)

    Just a thought. Do you guys really need two separate game lines about playing monsters in today’s world?

    Not being snarky. Really curious.
    Last edited by Penelope; 08-26-2020, 08:23 PM.


    The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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    • #3
      Probably not, just because both lines have their fanbases and will probably continue producing STV material.

      But in the long run, there's no telling what the current or future IP owners may decide to do with some theoretical 6th edition of Vampire or what have you.


      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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      • #4
        Maybe the more basic question I don’t get is what is the fundamental difference between these two game lines that makes some people prefer one over the other? (I like WoD better but only cause I know it better.)


        The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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        • #5
          To me CoD seems like a copy of WoD with some stuff changed.


          The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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          • #6
            The major lines came out with transition guides if you wanted to do crossover between game lines.

            Personally I like Cod better because it's a more (imo no edition waring here thank you) a more focused on what you are then what the over all meta plot is kinda product. Werewolf the Forsaken dosen't have you be an eco warrior in a war you already lost, Mage the Awakening is actually about magic and not reality wish granting. Vampire is about maintaining humanity without copouts like paths.


            You've been playing around the magic that is black
            But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

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            • #7
              The way I see, CoD is WoD before the metaplot. Not exactly the same, but what I expected from those games before I learned about the metaplot at least.

              Personal horror and not a peon in a chess game
              Dealing with your dual identity and not ecoterrorists
              Magic and power and not killing man in black

              To be honest, the way they deal with the several stereotypes of monsters (including mages as “witches and warlocks” from fairy tales) in CoD is a much more open and at same time focused that it was in WoD. For example, the single origin of all the vampires is abandoned, opening space for many mythologies and conceptual vampires without needing to link them to Cain. This many little things makes the entire feeling of the setting more interesting.

              I never played CoD, and played WoD for years, but I do prefer CoD since I first saw the book in a Sydney RPG shop back in 2005 just for removing all carried stories (basically for removing Ravnos it would gain my hearth, but taking Tremere and Giovanni with them was a life quality jump).


              House Rules - The Basics - House Rules for Trinity Continuum
              Fists of Flux - Inspired and Powered Martial Arts for Talents
              Tomes of Inspiration - Rituals and Dark Magic in Fists of Flux

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dwight View Post
                The major lines came out with transition guides if you wanted to do crossover between game lines.

                Personally I like Cod better because it's a more (imo no edition waring here thank you) a more focused on what you are then what the over all meta plot is kinda product. Werewolf the Forsaken dosen't have you be an eco warrior in a war you already lost, Mage the Awakening is actually about magic and not reality wish granting. Vampire is about maintaining humanity without copouts like paths.
                Thanks for answering. I hadn’t thought of it that way.


                The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mateus Luz View Post
                  The way I see, CoD is WoD before the metaplot. Not exactly the same, but what I expected from those games before I learned about the metaplot at least.

                  Personal horror and not a peon in a chess game
                  Dealing with your dual identity and not ecoterrorists
                  Magic and power and not killing man in black

                  To be honest, the way they deal with the several stereotypes of monsters (including mages as “witches and warlocks” from fairy tales) in CoD is a much more open and at same time focused that it was in WoD. For example, the single origin of all the vampires is abandoned, opening space for many mythologies and conceptual vampires without needing to link them to Cain. This many little things makes the entire feeling of the setting more interesting.

                  I never played CoD, and played WoD for years, but I do prefer CoD since I first saw the book in a Sydney RPG shop back in 2005 just for removing all carried stories (basically for removing Ravnos it would gain my hearth, but taking Tremere and Giovanni with them was a life quality jump).
                  I think I do prefer WoD but CoD is fun to read (I never actually played it).


                  The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Dwight View Post
                    The major lines came out with transition guides if you wanted to do crossover between game lines.

                    Personally I like Cod better because it's a more (imo no edition waring here thank you) a more focused on what you are then what the over all meta plot is kinda product. Werewolf the Forsaken dosen't have you be an eco warrior in a war you already lost, Mage the Awakening is actually about magic and not reality wish granting. Vampire is about maintaining humanity without copouts like paths.
                    I was going to say that the cosmic shenanigans of both Mage lines could theoretically make some kinda of "Infinite Crisis" situation in your own setting with crossovers between the WoD and CoD, using the Translation Guides to figure out how the rules might interact.

                    I first discovered World of Darkness through Bloodlines, but I started with CoD on tabletop actually because everything online said it was set up better for crossover, mechanically at least; I like my horror-fantasy kitchen sinks. I've since transitioned over more to Old WoD these days because I enjoy the over-the-top comic-book-style metaplot, and while Mage is one of my favourite game-lines in either version, I prefer the concepts and cosmology of Ascension more than Awakening. Definitely agree with the above that CoD is (generally, not always) more about personal horror, along with the more mundane horror of things just being vaguely and generally bad, rather than having some identifiable schemer/ancient evil/Lovecraftian horror that embodies everything bad in the universe.

                    Mechanically, I think I mostly like CoD better, but I'd probably port over the Difficulty mechanic because I like the variability it adds to rolls; I have a bit of a complexity-addiction though, and they probably dropped that because most people prefer it that way lol.

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                    • #11
                      Definetly the Mage Cosmology is more interesting in Ascension, maybe because I am biased, but the supernal realms are just boring. If I was going to run a astral exploration chronicle, I would put the supernal as The deep end of the equivalent Umbras. Strige would be the deep of underworld, Arcadia would be Arcadia, etc.

                      On the mechanics side, beside the way they are more compatible between splats, the “single variable” way to handle difficulties is more interesting as I see. It was annoying to set target number and number of successes, there was no good explanation (at least to my 14 yo brain) to why it would require more successes and not a higher target number. To be fair, I learned the mechanics in two very different times of my life, as a teenager that only played D&D and as a young adult that had played many more games and valued the story over violentia gratuita.


                      House Rules - The Basics - House Rules for Trinity Continuum
                      Fists of Flux - Inspired and Powered Martial Arts for Talents
                      Tomes of Inspiration - Rituals and Dark Magic in Fists of Flux

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                      • #12
                        To the general question in the title?

                        0%

                        As a purely business matter, there's no evidence that there's enough people that want a merged universe to make up for all the WoD fans and CofD fans that don't want that (keeping in mind that there are plenty of people that are both and don't want a merger too).

                        Both lines have sufficient customers bases to continue making books for both and remain profitable.

                        Unless something in these factors changes there's zero reason to merge them, so Paradox isn't going to.

                        Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                        Daeva becomes Toreador
                        Gangrel
                        Mekhet becomes Lasombra
                        Nosferatu
                        Ventrue

                        Invictus merges with the Camarilla
                        Carthians become a faction of the Anarchs
                        Circle of the Crone, Lancea et Sanctum, Ordo Dracul all become independent sects
                        So, while I'm trying my best to treat this fairly because I know you mean well: did you consider how much this doesn't sound like a merger of WoD and CofD, but killing Requiem and looting its corpse for WoD use? Every change here defaults towards VtM absorbing VtR things, and nothing of VtR actually coming to prominence in the "merger."

                        As someone who's favorite WW based Vampire game/edition is currently VtR 2e... what appeal does this have to me at all? How does this improve my play experience with this new merged Vampire?

                        The two different versions of werewolves, mages, changelings, mummies and demons all coexist with each other (maybe the Atlantean mages become a separate Tradition with their own Paradigm)
                        This strike me as very simplistic. Why would the Lost coexist with the Kithain? The Kithain have figured out how to have literal Arcadian Fae infiltrate the world by possessing human bodies and destroying the lives of the humans that were meant to be in them. No Lost would stomach that. And that's just one example.

                        And again, you end with "the CofD thing is second fiddle to the WoD thing." Why would Awakening fans want to play a game where the Diamond Orders are reduced to just another Tradition/Craft?

                        Do you guys really need two separate game lines about playing monsters in today’s world?
                        1) The were never intended to coexist. When the CofD first game out, the first core book was just titled World of Darkness, because the original WoD had been concluded. The new WoD was meant to start over. For seven years it was the WoD with no competition. Then in 2011 they decided to do V20 as a one-off thing. When they exploded, and W20 exploded, the 20th line became a thing and suddenly two things that weren't meant to be in publication with each other at the same time were.

                        2) This actually made the CofD way stronger as a separate game because it pushed the CofD writers to create greater differences between the two and explore different game play experiences and themes. One of the exceedingly frustrating parts of how so many of these conversations go, is that it feels like it's always "Everything ever created for the WoD, game books, comics, novels, video games, interviews, blog posts, etc." vs, "a review of the first two CofD books written by someone that was admittedly still peeved that the WoD was concluded." 16 years of the CofD being around, and it feels like nothing beyond year 1 (which was not a great open for the CofD) gets counted.

                        3) Need isn't the issue. These are niche luxury products we play for fun. Want is the issue. Do I want more than one game that tackles the idea of playing monsters in today's world? Yes! Variety is good. The WoD isn't for everyone, the CofD isn't for everyone, both combined aren't for everyone. Even if the CofD and WoD weren't both being made, there's tons of other games out there that explore similar spaces. This is fertile ground within the small market that is non-D&D TTRPGs, and there's no reason to act like only one game can be cultivated from it.

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                        • #13
                          Now, what I think will happen is all WoD will move to a *5, as V5 did and W5 is going to do. WoD will leave OPP, not entirely, but the core books will, and we will have CoD and WoD getting more and more mechanically and conceptually different.

                          WoD more focused on the distinct meta plots, not trying to merge the splats at all, except by not negating their existence of the others. Modiphius did a interesting job with V5, with new mechanics and a new meta-plot/redict that bright new players while keeping most of the established fan base. With W5 we probably will get M5 if we have good sells.
                          CoD will grow in depth, with more options and more interaction between the splats. OPP is doing a very interesting job on CoD with the Dark Eras, Contagion and new splats. We can see WW trusts OPP on doing both, but it’s a better business plan to split the effort in different fronts, it makes the total production faster and free WW of a dependency on OPP.


                          House Rules - The Basics - House Rules for Trinity Continuum
                          Fists of Flux - Inspired and Powered Martial Arts for Talents
                          Tomes of Inspiration - Rituals and Dark Magic in Fists of Flux

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                            To the general question in the title?

                            0%

                            As a purely business matter, there's no evidence that there's enough people that want a merged universe to make up for all the WoD fans and CofD fans that don't want that (keeping in mind that there are plenty of people that are both and don't want a merger too).

                            Both lines have sufficient customers bases to continue making books for both and remain profitable.

                            Unless something in these factors changes there's zero reason to merge them, so Paradox isn't going to.



                            So, while I'm trying my best to treat this fairly because I know you mean well: did you consider how much this doesn't sound like a merger of WoD and CofD, but killing Requiem and looting its corpse for WoD use? Every change here defaults towards VtM absorbing VtR things, and nothing of VtR actually coming to prominence in the "merger."

                            As someone who's favorite WW based Vampire game/edition is currently VtR 2e... what appeal does this have to me at all? How does this improve my play experience with this new merged Vampire?



                            This strike me as very simplistic. Why would the Lost coexist with the Kithain? The Kithain have figured out how to have literal Arcadian Fae infiltrate the world by possessing human bodies and destroying the lives of the humans that were meant to be in them. No Lost would stomach that. And that's just one example.

                            And again, you end with "the CofD thing is second fiddle to the WoD thing." Why would Awakening fans want to play a game where the Diamond Orders are reduced to just another Tradition/Craft?



                            1) The were never intended to coexist. When the CofD first game out, the first core book was just titled World of Darkness, because the original WoD had been concluded. The new WoD was meant to start over. For seven years it was the WoD with no competition. Then in 2011 they decided to do V20 as a one-off thing. When they exploded, and W20 exploded, the 20th line became a thing and suddenly two things that weren't meant to be in publication with each other at the same time were.

                            2) This actually made the CofD way stronger as a separate game because it pushed the CofD writers to create greater differences between the two and explore different game play experiences and themes. One of the exceedingly frustrating parts of how so many of these conversations go, is that it feels like it's always "Everything ever created for the WoD, game books, comics, novels, video games, interviews, blog posts, etc." vs, "a review of the first two CofD books written by someone that was admittedly still peeved that the WoD was concluded." 16 years of the CofD being around, and it feels like nothing beyond year 1 (which was not a great open for the CofD) gets counted.

                            3) Need isn't the issue. These are niche luxury products we play for fun. Want is the issue. Do I want more than one game that tackles the idea of playing monsters in today's world? Yes! Variety is good. The WoD isn't for everyone, the CofD isn't for everyone, both combined aren't for everyone. Even if the CofD and WoD weren't both being made, there's tons of other games out there that explore similar spaces. This is fertile ground within the small market that is non-D&D TTRPGs, and there's no reason to act like only one game can be cultivated from it.
                            Thank you. Idk all this, or at least I didn’t think about it. You make some very good points.

                            And you’re totally right about Changeling. I was thinking there would be two different Arcadias, but it was kind of a half baked idea (tbh I was a little buzzed when I wrote this, I had to edit like four times to fix all the typos) and it was definitely biased toward WoD and I think in general it wouldn’t be a very good idea. Thanks 😊.
                            Last edited by Penelope; 08-27-2020, 08:00 PM.


                            The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                              To me CoD seems like a copy of WoD with some stuff changed.
                              Part of that is that a fair amount of CoD's initial design and development was a direct reaction to certain parts of the just ending WoD. Much fewer clans/tribes/etc. over all. A lack of meta plot and a much looser over all setting. And mechanics that made crossover much easier. (Awakening, especially, I suspect, has a pretty objective mystic reality as a reaction to Ascension's consensual reality.) I think some of it was also an effort to try different ideas. But at the same time, they were trying to keep a lot of the elements that had helped define White Wolf's WoD lines back in the 90s.

                              While I'm much more a fan of WoD, partially because I grew up playing it and there's just a lot of elements I enjoy, I still have a lot of the 1st ed CoD books, and have found them incredibly useful as idea fodder for my WoD games over the past 15 years. Hunter the Vigil and Changeling the Lost are probably my favorites from the imprint. Requiem books have given me a lot of ideas for Masquerade, and I crib certain parts of Forsaken's lore for Apocalypse (such as Father Wolf, and adapting the five spirit wolf patrons of the tribes into the embodiments of the Garou Auspices). The last few times I was able to run Ascension, I adapted a lot of Awakening's Sphere levels/mechanics to Ascension's nine Spheres (and ended up changeling Entropy to Fate). Geist also inspired me to cut Wraith's legions down to just six.

                              However, I will note that I find much of the font and text style of Awakening to be utterly infuriating because it is so damn difficult for me to read, especially in less that perfect lighting.

                              Now if you will excuse me, I have to leave the cave and take my dinosaur for a walk.



                              What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                              Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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