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The Humankind VS The Supernatural?

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  • The Humankind VS The Supernatural?

    So... just a thought. If one day the whole humankind realizes the existence of supernaturals and rises against all of them. What’s the result?

    The humankind can also employ some supernatural tricks to affect spiritual things. Hedge Magic I think. And it is very likely they can train and produce Sorcerer much easier and more numerous

    Most greatest supernatural powers we know, are just city-level ones (Many level 8 or 9 Disciplines can effect the whole city, to be honest I don’t think it’s REALLY impressive)

    Many great beings can be rippled with big crowds. If a vampire elder faces hundreds, or thousands of armed guys, he may also be kicked very, very hard. Needless to say Mage, which has big disadvantages because of Paradox

    In my opinion they may crush down most beings, except truly great ones (Things Beyond the World, etc.)

  • #2
    There is a VtM Gehenna scenario, The Crucible of God, in which the Masquarade is broken (far too easily and swiftly, for my taste) and the Vampire Elders declare war on humanity. It names the Ventrue, the Toreador, and the Setites as the Clans who are most successful in sabotaging actions of mortals and allowing Vampires to carry out various acts of warfare and terrorism. Later, entire groups of soldiers come under the sway of Disciplines of Methuselahs and Antediluvians. One of the chapters is called "Conquest of Humanity" and the next one "Empire of Blood". Civilization is reduced to pre-industrial level. And all of this happens while Vampires suffer from the Withering.

    Remember the mortals are reliant on the few among them who are the leaders and the organizers. And these mortals are all too susceptible to social Disciplines, Blood Bond, and all kinds of mundane leverage.
    Vampires can also hide pretty well, even if those looking for them know about the existence of Vampires.
    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 09-06-2020, 03:08 PM.

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    • #3
      Yes. (Even elder vampires can't really survive modern military firepower.) This is why vampires, werewolves, and such have rules about keeping humanity ignorant of their existence. The alternative is humanity rising up and destroying the monsters in their midst.


      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
        There is a VtM Gehenna scenario, The Crucible of God, in which the Masquarade is broken (far too easily and swiftly, for my taste) and the Vampire Elders declare war on humanity. It names the Ventrue, the Toreador, and the Setites as the Clans who are most successful in sabotaging actions of mortals and allowing Vampires to carry out various acts of warfare and terrorism. Later, entire groups of soldiers come under the sway of Disciplines of Methuselahs and Antediluvians. One of the chapters is called "Conquest of Humanity" and the next one "Empire of Blood". Civilization is reduced to pre-industrial level. And all of this happens while Vampires suffer from the Withering.

        Remember the mortals are reliant on the few among them who are the leaders and the organizers. And these mortals are all too susceptible to social Disciplines, Blood Bond, and all kinds of mundane leverage.
        Vampires can also hide pretty well, even if those looking for them know about the existence of Vampires.
        Honestly, I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum on this. I find the Masquerade's success strains my suspension of disbelief as things get closer to the modern era. Post 2000, there are just too many cameras everywhere and every country is too well connected for masquerade breaches to get swept under the rug they way you could in the 80's or 90's.

        Pair this with the fact that the existence of a supernatural crisis would also cause a spike in "True Faith". As an example, look at the data for church attendance immediately after 9/11 and think of how a blatantly supernatural catastrophe(*cough*week of nightmares*cough*) on the same scale would cause orders of magnitudes more believers.

        I think an actual masquerade collapse isn't just inevitable, it would also be such a disaster as to cripple all sides(kindred, kine, and others) even without the withering giving humanity a deus-ex-machina.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
          Honestly, I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum on this. I find the Masquerade's success strains my suspension of disbelief as things get closer to the modern era. Post 2000, there are just too many cameras everywhere and every country is too well connected for masquerade breaches to get swept under the rug they way you could in the 80's or 90's.
          I just say to myself that the tutulage of Fledglings includes acting with enough secrecy so that nothing out-of-ordinary that they do is registered on cameras. There is also the possibility of controlling those mortals that have access to camera recordings of a given area.
          I find it quite characterful to think that, although technology has progressed to a great extent, the humanity is still in the dark in regard to Vampires in the Modern Nights. Mortals might have some tools, but it will do them no good because of their ignorance.
          Last edited by Muad'Dib; 09-06-2020, 04:25 PM.

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          • #6
            The scale of rejection of the supernatural matters a lot here. It's one thing to talk about humanity rising up as one to take on vampires; which means in a wider WoD the Imbued, Garou, and Technocracy are likely to help humanity out. It's an entirely different matter if humanity tries to get rid of all the supernaturals at once. Numina users and Imbued that are nominally humanity's defenders are going to get labelled as supernaturals to get purged as much as any other supernaturals. The Technocracy can easily grind and modern military efforts to a halt if humanity tries to come at the, leaving the Garou free to destroy the infrastructure necessary for industrial life to continue, and vampires free to sabotage angry mobs from within. The changelings are going to see Glamour flowing like an endless river from the human uprising's emotional core, fueling all the magic they need to make sure they're safe. Etc.

            Even if humanity eventually wins... the cost of even going against one supernatural group is going to be catastrophic. Going against them all is more likely to end like Devilman Crybaby (very NSFW, not linking, Google at your discretion) than anything remotely worth the devastation.

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            • #7
              Why can't we just all be firends?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                There is a VtM Gehenna scenario, The Crucible of God, in which the Masquarade is broken (far too easily and swiftly, for my taste) and the Vampire Elders declare war on humanity. It names the Ventrue, the Toreador, and the Setites as the Clans who are most successful in sabotaging actions of mortals and allowing Vampires to carry out various acts of warfare and terrorism. Later, entire groups of soldiers come under the sway of Disciplines of Methuselahs and Antediluvians. One of the chapters is called "Conquest of Humanity" and the next one "Empire of Blood". Civilization is reduced to pre-industrial level. And all of this happens while Vampires suffer from the Withering.

                Remember the mortals are reliant on the few among them who are the leaders and the organizers. And these mortals are all too susceptible to social Disciplines, Blood Bond, and all kinds of mundane leverage.
                Vampires can also hide pretty well, even if those looking for them know about the existence of Vampires.
                As Heavy Arms said this scenario doesn’t consider other splats. When humanity rose against vampires, Technoracy, Werewolf and Imbued will help them someway, and things may become much more complex

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                  I just say to myself that the tutulage of Fledglings includes acting with enough secrecy so that nothing out-of-ordinary that they do is registered on cameras. There is also the possibility of controlling those mortals that have access to camera recordings of a given area.
                  I find it quite characterful to think that, although technology has progressed to a great extent, the humanity is still in the dark in regard to Vampires in the Modern Nights. Mortals might have some tools, but it will do them no good because of their ignorance.
                  I have a problem with that idea though. That problem being a common tactic of sabbat packs purposely causing masquerade breaches in camerilla controlled cities to try and put pressure on the prince. This is a great tactic in the pre-21st century when ghost stories are easy to prove as "Hoaxes" and cities were isolated enough to not really communicate outside of government agencies that could be bribed/controlled. If you consider that the Iphone became wide-spread in the early 2010's, which effectively gave everyone a portable camera to easily put things on youtube for millions to see And was still so new/expensive/bad that it was easy to spot when a video was fake.

                  You are telling me that in the 4-ish years that it took for smartphones to come out and become commonplace, all of vampire society adapted quickly enough to not cripple the masquerade? That vampire society is noted in lore for being notorious as a stagnant monolith full of vampire that don't understand/underestimate technology as a factor. That fact is even touted as a plot point for why newer generations of vampires are suddenly becoming more able to compete with older vampires.

                  I'm sorry, I don't believe that. I can see why the setting worked for the time it was made, but right now even the IRL "conspiracies" like the Panama Papers and Epstein's child trafficking are being brought to public light because they're becoming impossible to keep hidden post-2010. Those same "conspiracies" have large groups of millionaires and politicians backing them yet Still can't remain hidden from the public eye.

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                  • #10
                    And neither example is actually a matter of new technology. Epstein got exposed in 2005 by good old fashioned someone calling the police on him, and the Panama Papers were leaked like many other past leaks of documents.

                    Everyone having an iPhone didn't lead to either situation getting exposed to the public.

                    The Internet and social media era has already moved to an information overload with misinformation, deep fakes,and so on making it extremely difficult for the average person to really know what's real and what's just reaffirming their beliefs.

                    YouTube is full of really good fake supernatural videos in our world. A server farm can flood Facebook and Twitter with bots designed to drown out original posts to get everyone caught up in fighting other people online rather than thinking about the original story/etc. There are whole Internet communities that focus on how to hide yourself from the ever growing lack of privacy just for the sake of privacy being protected; from apps that don't leave digital records, to clothing that messes with digital cameras. Vampires don't need to adapt, they just need to follow human trends because we'll do the hard work for them.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                      And neither example is actually a matter of new technology. Epstein got exposed in 2005 by good old fashioned someone calling the police on him, and the Panama Papers were leaked like many other past leaks of documents.

                      Everyone having an iPhone didn't lead to either situation getting exposed to the public.

                      The Internet and social media era has already moved to an information overload with misinformation, deep fakes,and so on making it extremely difficult for the average person to really know what's real and what's just reaffirming their beliefs.

                      YouTube is full of really good fake supernatural videos in our world. A server farm can flood Facebook and Twitter with bots designed to drown out original posts to get everyone caught up in fighting other people online rather than thinking about the original story/etc. There are whole Internet communities that focus on how to hide yourself from the ever growing lack of privacy just for the sake of privacy being protected; from apps that don't leave digital records, to clothing that messes with digital cameras. Vampires don't need to adapt, they just need to follow human trends because we'll do the hard work for them.
                      They got global coverage thanks to the internet though. Just like there are communities dedicated to hiding themselves from the internet, are similarly entire communities of people dedicated to exposing the truth and getting as much attention as possible focused on things people are trying to keep hidden.

                      I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here.

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                      • #12
                        The Masquerade was already a very, very, hard swallow pre 21th century. Books even aknowledged this sometimes, I think. I remeber to read in a WoD book a disclaimer about the supernatural not being real saying something among the lines "this is fiction, if these existed we would know already"

                        Then again, in our world lot's of dedicated people believe that the supernatural exists, and even more absurd stuff, and that they have proof. It shouldn't be such a strain on purposeful suspension of disbelief to think "this it's like our world, but all the conspiranoid wankiness it's real". And you shouldn't need much more to be at peace with WoD existing. Except for the 2e Sabbat shenanigans - those were absurd enough that they had to tone them down in revised

                        Heck, I have to say that, as someone that was alive in the 90's, I'm not very impress with 21 century people's grasp on reality: We didn't had huge movements convincing the masses that the earth is flat back then. I mean, that people existed but they hadn't the amount of surprisingly successful reaching one sees today. Information overload and fakes are very much a thing. So I'm kinda with Heavy Arms here.

                        Of course, something so big and "in your face" as the supernatural (as described by the books) can't possibly remain under wraps for long, but neither could before
                        Last edited by Aleph; 09-07-2020, 01:03 AM.

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                        • #13
                          And on the topic:

                          I think that the supernatural element may be much more powerful than humanity, but also (as described by the books) has an even greater tendency to shoot itself in the foot.

                          Like, I don't see Antediluvians raising to keep the kine under their control, to usher an age of vampire supremacy. I see them ignoring humanity (they have all the "deep end" mojo they need to never be discovered if they don't want to) except to use them as weapons in the Jihad. They actually might act in defense of humanity against vampires, if stuff goes extreme - simply because humans need to survive in order to mantain vampires in the long run (and these old geezers think on milenia).

                          You can't really think Antes have your back. Gehena says what it says because it's biblical times once again, everyone's plots come to fruition, and the world goes magic - that was the deal with almost all the ToJ lines.
                          If Antes go and conquer the world it's going to be because they're blood gods that want to rule in the open once again - like the lovecraftian Old Ones that they are - not because they're in the vamp. team vs. team humanity. At least that's how I would envision it

                          As for humans eradicating the supernatural - I don't see it happening. We can kill a lot of supers and prepare some good countermeasures to get the better of them, but the "root" will never go away. The spirit worlds outnumbers and outguns humanity by far, with only a wall of disbelief and statism keeping it out. Vampires reproduce far too easily. Avatars will keep reincarnating as long as there's humans and belief. .
                          Last edited by Aleph; 09-07-2020, 01:36 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Well technically Humanity can never "beat" supernaturals.. since at the end of the day, Wraiths will still be a thing as long as Humanity exists.


                            Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
                              As Heavy Arms said this scenario doesn’t consider other splats. When humanity rose against vampires, Technoracy, Werewolf and Imbued will help them someway, and things may become much more complex
                              then you'll have to be more specific about which supernaturals are to be hunted,

                              going by your original post, that would be vampires and Mages (excluding technocracy)

                              against Mages, humanity has no chance,
                              mages have access to the umbra (which can be countered by the technocracy),
                              but, paradox won't be a problem since humanity believing in the supernatural will break the consensus, making magic less vulgar (making the technos work much harder).
                              I imagine the celestial chorus and hermetics will be the ones to benefit the most from the change


                              as for Vampires, the vampiric societies will break down,
                              the former Camarilla will turn to their methuselahs and antideluvians (which will be awakened by the chaos),
                              the sabbat will turn to infernalism,
                              and there's probably gonna be more vampire Drones,

                              if humans have the time to create sorcerers, so do vampires,
                              and it doesn't help that sorecerers can be embraced or ghouled which can further complicate things for humanity,


                              I don't know how much help can werewolves be,
                              they are being hunted by Imbued and technos, and their numbers are weak and not replenishing any time soon


                              -

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