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The Humankind VS The Supernatural?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Up-to-Eleven View Post
    Why can't we just all be firends?
    because story is conflict


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

      then you'll have to be more specific about which supernaturals are to be hunted,

      going by your original post, that would be vampires and Mages (excluding technocracy)

      against Mages, humanity has no chance,
      mages have access to the umbra (which can be countered by the technocracy),
      but, paradox won't be a problem since humanity believing in the supernatural will break the consensus, making magic less vulgar (making the technos work much harder).
      I imagine the celestial chorus and hermetics will be the ones to benefit the most from the change
      Humans might believe in something a bit more. I don't know if it would pan out well for mages, though; it might cause a cosmic snap that changes everyone back into the DA:M system, precluding them from working with each other. Assuming, of course, the crossover event doesn't just ignore most of the matter of Consensus altogether. It's not like Mage even pays that much attention to it, since Reality Zones are getting to be a thing and it has to contort itself to explain why other magical beings don't experience Paradox, the latest explanation being Mythic Threads (TM).

      as for Vampires, the vampiric societies will break down,
      the former Camarilla will turn to their methuselahs and antideluvians (which will be awakened by the chaos),
      the sabbat will turn to infernalism,
      and there's probably gonna be more vampire Drones,
      Drones won't come about unless the vampires have some super-high Auspex. Enough to astral project is basically the minimum here. Then they also have to be the type to think that OneSong makes perfect sense and the Weaver's drive to act like Futurama's Infosphere is the right way to go.

      if humans have the time to create sorcerers, so do vampires,
      and it doesn't help that sorecerers can be embraced or ghouled which can further complicate things for humanity,


      I don't know how much help can werewolves be,
      they are being hunted by Imbued and technos, and their numbers are weak and not replenishing any time soon
      I thought that the conditions posited were that a primary anti-vampire backlash will see the Imbued, Technocracy, and werebeasts mostly helping (likely covertly) against the vampires, not a free for all. That said, Imbued who try to directly antagonize werewolves typically end up as piles of gore on the ground, and operatives for the Technocracy are risking about the same, since there are a lot of Gifts commonly learned to shut down the TU's Cool Toys.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
        Honestly, I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum on this. I find the Masquerade's success strains my suspension of disbelief as things get closer to the modern era. Post 2000, there are just too many cameras everywhere and every country is too well connected for masquerade breaches to get swept under the rug they way you could in the 80's or 90's.
        I have the same issue. Too many cameras, too many uncontrolled government agencies, too many media outlets, too many phones with cameras, and on and on. It does help that the Technocracy is helping to uphold the Masquerade, but even then it is barely plausible.

        I have long though that a campaign about the collapse of the Masquerade - a process rather than an event - would be interesting.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

          the latest explanation being Mythic Threads (TM).
          I admit, I have trouble understanding how reality zones and mythic threads work

          I thought that the conditions posited were that a primary anti-vampire backlash will see the Imbued, Technocracy, and werebeasts mostly helping (likely covertly) against the vampires, not a free for all.
          you're right,
          I should have clarified that I had trouble believing in such a scenario,

          imo, if hunters are going after vampires and mages, they're probably going after werewolves as well,
          the imbued or drones or other may lead humans against garou and/or their entourage (kinfolk) with garou battling on two fronts,

          the technos might leave the werewolves alone at first, but after the corpses pile up, they might decide it's best to help out against werfs as well

          just my two cents


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          • #20
            Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
            I admit, I have trouble understanding how reality zones and mythic threads work
            The Consensus it's not a zero sum game. It has a reach, and exceptions. I find Reality Zones easy to understand, Mythic Threads not so much. Still I think I can explain:

            People's beliefs around the world are not homogenous, and neither it's the Consensus. A Reality Zone means local beliefs are taken in count - A buddhist levitation raises less eyebrows in an Indian buddhist temple than in your typical occidental street - I don't know why this would make less sense than saying that if an X unspecified number of people world wide believe in something then X happens.

            In particular having in mind how the same forces of Paradox always worked: If you think about it, in a sense, it was always this way.

            Sanctums always were a thing, Taftani desert had managed a "special treatment" too (as per their very old book), Tremere Chantries were supposed to make hermetic magick coincidental (Blood Treachery) even when a Chantry was never the same as a Sanctum (and many times Chantries reality was deemed to have a more flexible reality, against the rules). Scourge (Cruzade) reacted different depending on where in the world you were, too - and that's exactly what Reality Zones are.

            Mythic Threads(that, btw, existed since 2ed albeit the concept was more open back then) are a similar idea, just that it gives you a bonus if your magick it's memetic. If it resonates strongly with pop-culture or other wide undercurrents of "how X should work" (regardless if people believe X it's real)

            Personally I liked them more in 2ed, where it was more vague and insinuated that at least some of these threads could exist as powers beyond the Consensus. M20 went full with the idea of the "subconscious belief" to explain the other Splats as Mythic Threads, that's a disservice to crossover (hard to explain why VtM Vampires are a permanent grain in the ass of human belief, yet creatures much more memetical and prevalent in almost every myth, like Dragons, are not)

            I don't think Reality Zones and Mythic Threads weaken the concept of the Consensus. On the contrary, they provide much needed exceptions to the Technocratic rule. Needed not to pander the fans of other Splats, but to explain how the Traditions function, how they could ever hope to win and change reality (by getting results when you change the local Consensus, you know it can be done. If you couldn't do this, then how do you know changing human belief it's going to work?, it has to work just because the technocracy says they did it in the past?). In a way it's just Mage giving a name to something that was always there but was never called out.
            Last edited by Aleph; 09-08-2020, 10:32 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Rock113 View Post
              As Heavy Arms said this scenario doesn’t consider other splats. When humanity rose against vampires, Technoracy, Werewolf and Imbued will help them someway, and things may become much more complex
              I think that the Technocracy is more likely to side with Vampires. There is a story from Midnight Siege in which a highly-ranked Technocrat sides with the Camarilla to clean up during a Sabbat siege. https://postimg.cc/rztCkt9n Remember that this is the Technocracy ; they are Enlightened Scientists, not merely a conspiracy of highly placed politicians. It absolutely does not benefit the Technocracy to have mortals seeking out Vampires, as the Technocracy has likewise infiltrated and subverted mortal organizations and government structures through various means that are definitely not mundane or legal. Also, if masses of mortals start acting against Vampires and have a measure of success, it would cause a rapid spike in the belief in the supernatural and magic, which is definitely counter to the Technocracy's goals. I think it is appropriate for WoD that the seemingly "for humanity" faction like the Technocracy would decide to work for the benefit of Vampires, because the alternatives just don't give Technocrats anything.

              That said, with the Technocracy supporting Vampires (or at least, the Camarilla) their entire mass media influence and technological affinity would serve to minimize any chance of mortals reaching the truth in regard to Vampires.

              Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
              I have a problem with that idea though. That problem being a common tactic of sabbat packs purposely causing masquerade breaches in camerilla controlled cities to try and put pressure on the prince. This is a great tactic in the pre-21st century when ghost stories are easy to prove as "Hoaxes" and cities were isolated enough to not really communicate outside of government agencies that could be bribed/controlled. If you consider that the Iphone became wide-spread in the early 2010's, which effectively gave everyone a portable camera to easily put things on youtube for millions to see And was still so new/expensive/bad that it was easy to spot when a video was fake.

              You are telling me that in the 4-ish years that it took for smartphones to come out and become commonplace, all of vampire society adapted quickly enough to not cripple the masquerade? That vampire society is noted in lore for being notorious as a stagnant monolith full of vampire that don't understand/underestimate technology as a factor. That fact is even touted as a plot point for why newer generations of vampires are suddenly becoming more able to compete with older vampires.

              I'm sorry, I don't believe that. I can see why the setting worked for the time it was made, but right now even the IRL "conspiracies" like the Panama Papers and Epstein's child trafficking are being brought to public light because they're becoming impossible to keep hidden post-2010. Those same "conspiracies" have large groups of millionaires and politicians backing them yet Still can't remain hidden from the public eye.
              The skills and aptitudes that each Vampire should have to feed discreetly - which are aided by the Disciplines (each Clan has at least one that aids in feeding, some have two) - should prevent instances of Vampires being recorded in any situation that would be a Masquerade breech. The secrecy of Vampires has centuries of refinement.
              On the off chance that it happens, note that just because it is a real recording does not give it any traction with mortals viewing it. A headline of "Vampires are real, check out this video." is ridiculous for mortals to accept. Also in WoD you likely have Ghouls or Blood Bound servants who have the task of removing any (fake or not) videos pertaining to supposed Vampire activity in a timely manner. And the reaction of mortals to a video being removed is inclined towards "Good riddance, though it was realistic..." rather than "This is suspicious...". These factors together sort out the recorded video issue satisfactorily for me.

              Also note that in WoD the potential of mortals to believe in any kind of supernatural (including Vampires) is literally subdued through the manipulations of the Technocracy. "Just a conspiracy theory", "Another fake video" or "Some fool seeking attention and validation" are memes that exist in the subconsciousness of mortals.
              Last edited by Muad'Dib; 09-10-2020, 04:20 PM.

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              • #22
                The Technocracy siding with the Camarilla is predicated on the Union thinking they can control the anti-vampire fervor in time. If they don't think they can stop it (as is presumed by the hypothetical) their next best option is to help humanity wipe out vampires (it's not like the Union wants them around forever anyway) so they remain part of the changed social landscape instead of left behind.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post

                  The skills and aptitudes that each Vampire should have to feed discreetly - which are aided by the Disciplines (each Clan has at least one that aids in feeding, some have two) - should prevent instances of Vampires being recorded in any situation that would be a Masquerade breech. The secrecy of Vampires has centuries of refinement.
                  On the off chance that it happens, note that just because it is a real recording does not give it any traction with mortals viewing it. A headline of "Vampires are real, check out this video." is ridiculous for mortals to accept. Also in WoD you likely have Ghouls or Blood Bound servants who have the task of removing any (fake or not) videos pertaining to supposed Vampire activity in a timely manner. And the reaction of mortals to a video being removed is inclined towards "Good riddance, though it was realistic..." rather than "This is suspicious...". These factors together sort out the recorded video issue satisfactorily for me.

                  Also note that in WoD the potential of mortals to believe in any kind of supernatural (including Vampires) is literally subdued through the manipulations of the Technocracy. "Just a conspiracy theory", "Another fake video" or "Some fool seeking attention and validation" are memes that exist in the subconsciousness of mortals.
                  There aren't any disciplines that aid in not getting seen by a camera. Auspex doesn't detect hidden tech, obfuscate doesn't hide you from recordings and celerity doesn't get faster than the human eye(or cameras) can track until elder levels. Only blood magic has any means of effecting technology and even then it's limited to the thaumaturgic path of technomancy and a couple obscure anarch or inconnue rituals. Most vampires in general aren't going to be equipped to avoid technology, with the exception being the very newest neonates or the most paranoid elders that were afraid of technology long before the internet.

                  It'd also take monitoring every internet site every second of the day to remove any videos of the supernatural in a timely manner(which is something that the US government can't do effectively, let alone a much smaller group) and it wouldn't be effective anyway because the trail of deleted videos itself would become suspicious(which is happens IRL with many attempts by companies to censor employees). Lastly, there are dedicated data-hoarding groups that will save evidence like that to external, private servers and re-upload it on multiple sites at once(I guess they'd be son's of ether and virtual adapts in this case).

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                  • #24
                    Why are camera a problem for most vampires though?

                    They're not grabbing people and sucking blood in the middle of a busy street. They're going to vampire run clubs (aka any cameras belonging to the building aren't a problem), taking a target into the bathroom, and sucking blood in a stall. All the cameras that caught the vampire going to the club, and their victim going to the club, them partying together in the club, them ducking off alone in the club, just... say that two people went to the club and one had an Uber called for them after getting woozy. Thanks to the Kiss most vampires don't even need Disciplines for it, and those with Dominate or Presence just get to do this on easy mode. There's a reason vampires cultivate blood dolls... among other things it gives them power over other vampires that aren't as good at feeding with their own skills and not getting caught.

                    Animalism makes feeding on animals easy mode as well... it's not like it's hard to find a stray cat in a city. The cameras see... someone picked up a stray and take it off somewhere... who's even going to care to follow them home, and watch that home long enough to figure out that cat died?

                    Cameras all over the place don't matter if they never see the parts that actually count. It's extremely easy for vampires to avoid being caught feeding on camera, even if alleyways aren't as convenient as they used to be.

                    These tangents always feel like people assume that the rave at the start of Blade 1 was meant to be a tame sedate formal vampire supper or something.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                      you're right,
                      I should have clarified that I had trouble believing in such a scenario,

                      imo, if hunters are going after vampires and mages, they're probably going after werewolves as well,
                      Imbued have never been in a situation where they have a numbers advantage. Or any idea of the big picture, unless they're hermits. They also tend to view the "pro-humanity" technocracy as monsters.

                      the imbued or drones or other may lead humans against garou and/or their entourage (kinfolk) with garou battling on two fronts,
                      Using Drones is going to lead to friction with hunters, especially Imbued, because the Weaver-fomori are going to trip the Monstervision of the chosen. They will attack them and either wipe out the noncombat drones or get torn to pieces by the combat drones. Any non-Imbued hunters with True Faith are going to be in a similar predicament, though they can probably cause the Drone unbearable agony or death by using TF to exorcise the weaver-spirit.

                      the technos might leave the werewolves alone at first, but after the corpses pile up, they might decide it's best to help out against werfs as well

                      just my two cents
                      Technos are always going to be preoccupied with mages. When the other mages move against them, they put their efforts toward dealing with the mages. If they notice a monster doing something, it's of lesser interest to what Traditions mages or Disparates are doing, and likely to be discounted or misread. If their cool toys keep malfunctioning around Garou and few operatives make it out alive when they try to pursue Garou*, they're not likely to keep doing that. Or have any idea that they shouldn't put microprocessors in everything that they intend to use (which they're unlikely to connect as the reason why they end up getting wrecked, since the hows and whys of spiritual gifts are a giant blind spot to their paradigm).

                      * Strictly against Cao Cao's orders. We want to get out of here alive...

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                        Why are camera a problem for most vampires though?

                        They're not grabbing people and sucking blood in the middle of a busy street. They're going to vampire run clubs (aka any cameras belonging to the building aren't a problem), taking a target into the bathroom, and sucking blood in a stall. All the cameras that caught the vampire going to the club, and their victim going to the club, them partying together in the club, them ducking off alone in the club, just... say that two people went to the club and one had an Uber called for them after getting woozy. Thanks to the Kiss most vampires don't even need Disciplines for it, and those with Dominate or Presence just get to do this on easy mode. There's a reason vampires cultivate blood dolls... among other things it gives them power over other vampires that aren't as good at feeding with their own skills and not getting caught.

                        Animalism makes feeding on animals easy mode as well... it's not like it's hard to find a stray cat in a city. The cameras see... someone picked up a stray and take it off somewhere... who's even going to care to follow them home, and watch that home long enough to figure out that cat died?

                        Cameras all over the place don't matter if they never see the parts that actually count. It's extremely easy for vampires to avoid being caught feeding on camera, even if alleyways aren't as convenient as they used to be.

                        These tangents always feel like people assume that the rave at the start of Blade 1 was meant to be a tame sedate formal vampire supper or something.
                        It has long been my contention that the great majority of vampires, especially in the Camarilla, seldom rely on randomly grabbing people to feed. They will have blood bound herds, access to animals, blood banks, slaughter houses, hospitals, or some other network of servants, employees, or organizations that supply them with blood. Grabbing random people off the street to feed on is going to be highly controversial, doing so without judicious use of mind control even more so, and killing the victim is that much worse. Random feeding should always be a last resort.

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                        • #27
                          Yeah nah , the Masquerade ain't breaking any time soon. only crazed lunatics with nothing left to lose go after supes. anyone with influence isn't going to do that. People are happy ignorant.

                          If it got blown off, it'd either be a peaceful understanding pushed by a propaganda machine 'the vampires just feared persecution!'. or it'd be an apocalytic war quickly subverted into an all round clusterfuck where humans kill humans far more often than any supernatural gets hurt, even in relation to population sizes.
                          Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 09-10-2020, 02:59 AM.


                          Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                            It has long been my contention that the great majority of vampires, especially in the Camarilla, seldom rely on randomly grabbing people to feed. They will have blood bound herds, access to animals, blood banks, slaughter houses, hospitals, or some other network of servants, employees, or organizations that supply them with blood. Grabbing random people off the street to feed on is going to be highly controversial, doing so without judicious use of mind control even more so, and killing the victim is that much worse. Random feeding should always be a last resort.
                            Honestly the Camerilla could just have blood rationed to registered kindred. Hospitals dispose of expired blood bags by the ton each day and it'd only take a business-minded ventrue playing with the expiration dates to have more than enough blood to feed every Camerilla vampire nightly with less chances for masquerade breaches or humanity degeneration.

                            It'd also be lucrative for the Camerilla to do so, even for free, as it'd give them control of their member's easiest available blood supply that didn't risk "Path of Humanity" complications. This allows princes to place hunting restrictions on their domains under the guise of protecting the masquerade with excuse that "the Camerilla provides a safer alternative to feeding". This would in turn allow them to have some level of control over the discipline usage of their "lower class" members while simultaneously being praised for their generosity by those same "lower class".

                            It all seems so easy and in character that I don't see a reason not to include it in a game

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                            • #29
                              Such a large scale and routine operation would risk the masquerade more than regular feedings.

                              If the Camarilla didn't care about humanity, the smart thing would be to share a prison. Once upon a time, Prisons were located in cities and weren't out in the sticks to be kept out of mind and out of sight. These in-city prisons offered prisoners far more contact with the outside and helped humanize the prisoners. They would even be taken out of the prison to perform community services or beg in the case of prisoners who owed a lot of money. One could argue it was far more humane...

                              Ok, scratch that idea. Easily accessible prison food wouldn't be worth the increased chance of prisoners telling outsiders of the strange folk that come to them at night...

                              I don't think there is a -all of the camarilla can benefit from this blood scheme- plan, really. Some things might work for a small group, and many cities or baronies are small enough that it can work, but you could never do it for a large cities. The best idea i've got is... animal blood. Just designate different arbitoirs for kindred. Yuck.


                              Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                              • #30
                                I think the point of Prometheas it's still valid. Camarilla should feed it's members, if not by one scheme, by several.

                                Just like criminals need to do money laundry, the camarilla needs to have several methods to get "clean" blood. Otherwise you're accepting loose threads consuming the same amount of blood, and the proposal would be to just trust on the "social responsability" of vampires (a people known for their fits of rage and moodiness)

                                Bonus points because it's both a service that provides a reason for vampires to want to belong to the Camarilla, and a way to control those vampires at the same time.
                                Last edited by Aleph; 09-12-2020, 01:08 PM.

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