Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Humankind VS The Supernatural?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    What the Camarilla really needs to do, is finance it's members.
    I posted elsewhere an in depth look at this elsewhere, but money would really make the members of the Camarilla that much smoother. Childer need a minimum of three dots of resources, provided by their sire or another sponsor. This would ensure not only that childer don't make stupid moves in desperation, but also that sires sire responsibly and those who can't meet the criteria for siring at least have something to blame other than the prince's whims. Importantly, it would foster a sense of obligation towards the older generations which have supported them, a contentment with the status quo, and it would give childer a safety net and fund for their own economic expansion. An affluent base of neonates would do wonders in reducing masquerade breach risk and in covering up potential breaches.


    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

    Comment


    • #32
      Do you really think the literal metaphor for exploitative capitalism would institute Universal Basic Income?

      Comment


      • #33
        Actually, yeah.

        Vampires are the elite and immortal old money. Old money supports old money; It's not how much money you actually make, it's your values and who your family is that gets you buy. If you were the child of a long line of wealthy people, and you did something financially stupid like... become an art major or lose all your money to some scheme, your family's rich friends would help you out on the assumption that you'll get it back together eventually, and Old Money gotta support the Old money community (They look good at least doing so). When they help you, you'll help them someday. And It's not like a small grant of a million dollars is much for them. They'll soft-pressure you to grow that money anyways.

        This is why Vampires deal in prestation and not cash.

        And Old money hates new money. If you bring someone into your society who went from starving jackal to an agressive, well fed wolf, it's dangerous. People who go from 0 to 100 have different values, they're risk takers, they're sociopathic, they're dangerous. It's far better to have a base wealth


        All vampires are explotative, Old money is exploitative. But old money doesn't neccessarily exploit old-money, they exploit the masses; Ghouls, Thralls, blood dolls... Vampires are... what, the 0.001% if 100,000 to 1 ratio is used. As metaphors for the Uber wealthy I think they're very fine doing this group-help thing. The real struggle of vampire shouldn't be about money, it's easy for vampires to make money, but about power and domain and such. Some groups like Anarchs or Lasombra would reject this, but it'd be a great plan for the cam.


        Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

        Comment


        • #34
          didn't soviet brujah try something like that,
          and it didn't work out?


          -

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
            didn't soviet brujah try something like that,
            and it didn't work out?

            Can't imagine they did. The Soviet union was less a thing about money and more a thing about position.


            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post

              It has long been my contention that the great majority of vampires, especially in the Camarilla, seldom rely on randomly grabbing people to feed. They will have blood bound herds, access to animals, blood banks, slaughter houses, hospitals, or some other network of servants, employees, or organizations that supply them with blood. Grabbing random people off the street to feed on is going to be highly controversial, doing so without judicious use of mind control even more so, and killing the victim is that much worse. Random feeding should always be a last resort.
              Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post

              It has long been my contention that the great majority of vampires, especially in the Camarilla, seldom rely on randomly grabbing people to feed. They will have blood bound herds, access to animals, blood banks, slaughter houses, hospitals, or some other network of servants, employees, or organizations that supply them with blood. Grabbing random people off the street to feed on is going to be highly controversial, doing so without judicious use of mind control even more so, and killing the victim is that much worse. Random feeding should always be a last resort.
              The way I see it, herd or no herd, Vampires (especially Camarilla Vampires) by default feed behind closed doors. Whether it is the high society in the case of the Toreador and the Ventrue, or low class punks in the case of the Brujah, the average Vampire effortlessly makes it so their feeding does not attract any attention. The Malkavians and the Nosferatu could be said to have a tendency towards street hunting, but they also have excellent Disciplines to help with this. The Gangrel have Animalism to help them. The Tremere probably tend towards high society, possibly with some help from either the Clan Tremere, or the Toreador and the Ventrue.
              Last edited by Muad'Dib; 09-14-2020, 12:11 PM.

              Comment


              • #37
                There's also a lot more out there that "high society" and "low class punks." I'd imagine vampires of all stripes are quite happy that academic drinking culture isn't going anywhere any time soon: from fraternity parties to overworked professors going for drinks together at the end of the day. I know it's not really VtM's stylistic flair, but the middle class of heavily worked but paid enough to actually afford drinking away problems crowd fill bars more nights than anyone else.

                I also get rather frustrated with the idea that Malkavians can't operate in any given strata of society.... like mental health problems are somehow unique to the poor and thus Malkavians are gutter rats or whatever. I'm not trying to call you out specifically Muad'Dib, it's something I see a lot despite the books regularly calling out how varied the Clan is based on how their Weakness manifests. Hannibal Lecter is as much of a Malkavian as some guy on the street corner waving around a "The End is Nigh," sign.

                The Nosferatu also have Animalism to help make up for the difficulties of dealing with humans their Weakness imparts. Protean 4 and 5 (yes, somewhat beyond where a lot of PCs will start) make navigating the modern world very ease: flying around town as a bat skips over all sorts of concerns outside, while Mist Form makes circumventing most internal security systems simple. Trying to force a high Protean character through a check point or something similar is pretty laughable.

                Anyway... that all said, I'm pretty sure the "is the Masquerade even plausible," tangent is a many threads beaten dead horse at this point.

                Can we at least try to focus a bit back on the original topic? How the Masquerade falls is pretty important to the proposed scenario, so how we see that happening is going to color things, but the hypothetical is still about what happens when it does. Things like vampires having a fairly "sink or swim" mentality to Neonates, even the Camarilla, is a bigger threat to vampires in a humanity uprising scenario than an unrealistically fragile Masquerade; as an example.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Honestly I find this hard to answer because I'm not sure you could neatly define 'humanity' vs 'supernatural' since there's so much overlap. Alot of 'supernatural' factions may have sympathy or outright alliance with humans (the Technocracy are the obvious example) so they would fall on the side of humans even if they are Mages. Likewise alot of faith-based mages might also fall on the side of humanity (interesting idea if this causes a rift in, say, the Celestial Chorus). And of course there's the Imbued. Lucifer is also another example (from Demon) who is 'Pro-Human' supernatural and if he did as he did in Times of Judgmeent he might harness many of the fallen into his camp on humanity' side (the Earthbound would obviously fall on the other side.)

                  Compounding that fact is that alot of these different factions may or may not cooperate. I suspect few 'supernatural' factions fighting for their survival would cooperate and more likely fight against themselves (Earthbound vs the Third Generation Kindred might be interesting) and I think having humanity as a rallying point could unify THOSE factions, but even then a 'pro-human' side might still fall to infighting (Judeo-Christian based superantural factions like the Chorus or Society aren't likely to knowingly trust Lucifer, for example.)

                  In broad strokes I feel that humanity's strength lie more in open, direct conflict where they can bring their numbers and technology (and disbelief) to bear. They're basically conventional, symmetrical warfare and (most) supernatural factions would be hard pressed to match that (something like Earthbound or Antes might be another story without involving nukes or similar.) Supernatural factions however, are exceptionally skilled and well placed to engage in asymmetric warfare (guerilla or terrorist stuff) because they control many of the levers of society that large scale 'conventional' and direct conflicts require. It's HARD to bring them to a direct engagement unless they allow it to happen, and they can do much to prevent such direct engagements from happening (if not actually cripple society, although this could hurt them as much as humans given the typically symbiotic/parasitic relationships the supernatural has with WoD humanity)

                  So barring luck or outside factors there would be a stalemate. I suspect this is where the 'Human-sympathetic' supernatural factions come in, mass belief, and so on because they'd be the best way to counter the strengths of the supernatural and enable humans to play to THEIR strengths in such a conflict. The only issue is whether enough supernaturals would ally with humanity that they could overcome the supernatural asymmetric-ness sufficiently (another place where the willingness for human-aligned factions to cooperate matters GREATLY. I mean I'd bet Lucifer against any Ante quite easily.)

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    A third of mankind backstabs the other third for power, wealth, add everything. The other third is just plain apathetic.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Accelerator View Post
                      A third of mankind backstabs the other third for power, wealth, add everything. The other third is just plain apathetic.
                      Ok. I need to expand on this.

                      Like, literally, look at everything. Look at what people do now. Look at how utterly apathetic people are to other people's suffering. Look at Vampires. Let's pretend that they do the bare minimum. Oh, what's that? You can literally grant immortality, at the risk of losing humanity, a thirst for blood, a weakness to sunlight and fire, supernatural powers (which also include mind control), and sick durabilty? Hell yeah, count me in! There are people literally doing worse things now. Someone who sucks blood (and doesn't need to kill to do it) can be positively benign. Hell, look at ghouls. Not much immortality there, I say... but having 1 dot of potence already gives you superpowers.

                      And look at the mages. Now, I'm not familiar with werewolves and changeling and wraith, but I do know the technocracy. And I know that the Technocracy can literally do money magic. The Syndicate runs the Western world's governments, and whatnot. Let's face it. A mage with Mind 1 can literally lower difficulties for mental rolls. The Technocracy also runs majority of the mass media outlets, and has supernatural (don't let them hear you) powers of persuasion, letting them take control and steering the narrative and humanity's movement. There won't be people trying to kill the technocracy. There will be people trying to join. And if the Traditions fight against this? Well, its still a win for the Supernaturals.

                      Likewise, Werewolves. They've got superpowers that make them chump mortals and also serve as the ultimate guerilla fighters.

                      A masquerade break won't benefit the human race. It'll just mean that supernaturals start walking around and kicking the shit out of mortal society.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X