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  • Redeemed Fallen and a State of Grace.

    So in Demon the Fallen’s short run they implied the Fallen might be able to achieve a state of Grace where they shrug off Torment and become closer to their Angelic past selves. What are the changes you would imagine would come from this?

    One idea I like is maybe it cuts off the Pull of the Abyss, this could even mean they don’t need a host, but without one they are vulnerable to being eaten and can only interact with things in the Shadowland.

    Perhaps like Golconda the Redeemed aren’t limited by human form anymore.

    Other ideas or restrictions?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    So in Demon the Fallen’s short run they implied the Fallen might be able to achieve a state of Grace where they shrug off Torment and become closer to their Angelic past selves. What are the changes you would imagine would come from this?

    One idea I like is maybe it cuts off the Pull of the Abyss, this could even mean they don’t need a host, but without one they are vulnerable to being eaten and can only interact with things in the Shadowland.

    Perhaps like Golconda the Redeemed aren’t limited by human form anymore.

    Other ideas or restrictions?
    The Time of Judgement book has stats for untormented angels already.

    Essentially, full angels don't need a host/are in apocalyptic form 24/7, can store massive amounts of faith(25-65 depending on rank), don't have abilities(just attributes and lores), and can spend faith to add dice to Any dice roll as if it were a lore roll. Angels of god can also regain their entire faith pool daily, but a fallen that had managed to overcome torment while still remaining loyal to humanity/lucifer probably wouldn't be able to do that.

    The lack of ability dots sticks out though. If fallen are like that as well(only gaining the ability scores of their host, the same way they take on their faith score during summoning) it'd actually put into perspective why humanity is amazing to them. Humans would be able to "Create" a way to do anything, while angels must rely on divine or mortal favor to do everything.


    Edit: I kinda just realized after re-reading, but a true angel could technically do anything if it ponied up the faith to make a dice-pool for it. Granted, doing something like "smite someone with raw faith" would require a you to spend faith to make a dice-pool for the Attack and Damage.

    This actually folds nicely into the back-story of why Lucifer developed fallen Lores and yet angels in ToJ have them. They're more cost efficient ways to use faith than typical angelic miracles. For example: An Angel of the Host trying to brute force the effects of the fifth dot of "lore of winds" would guzzle a ludicrous amount of faith while a fallen would spend 1 faith point and be done.

    This would also be a great reason for the Host to adopt Fallen lores: for when they just want a quick "holy smite" as apposed to bringing down the full weight of Heaven.
    Last edited by Prometheas; 09-19-2020, 09:28 PM.

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    • #3
      I know Judgment had True Angels, I was still thinking these Redeemed would be somewhat different to the never fallen angels, still figuring out how.

      You think Lucifer designed the Lores of the Fallen? I got the impression they are just lesser versions of their original more potent greater lores.

      I am thinking Angels may have developed Lores for the changing Creation after Fallen were Banished. This would be the sole methods of interacting with the aspects of Creation the Fallen are ignorant of like the Umbra and the Dreaming were hadn't split from the material when the Fallen were Banished.

      It would be interesting if say a Lore of the Dreaming and Lore of the Umbra existed. And Miracles representing the Unbridled Divine power of Heaven.

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      • #4
        One thing I feel like is missing from the Lore system as a whole is the capability to do something similar to Unleashing from Changeling 20th. Improvising upon the theme of a Lore to go beyond standard evocations. Redeemed Fallen could get this ability. I've been experimenting with it in my Fallen games, but haven't had as much playtest as I'd like. I could also see Redeemed Fallen having something similar to the Earthbound Mastery that allows the enhancement of evocations.

        As for other benefits, not having to manage the risk of high-Torment evocations would already be a great boon for Redeemed. I'd keep some version of the the Temporary / Permanent Torment buildup, though, as a moral challenge for characters.

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        • #5
          Yeah I would allow Redeemed to gain more Torment and fall again. Yeah they do need a flexible system, I was thinking maybe an Archlore level would be cool, but the Mastery Stat of the Earthbound is an interesting option.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
            I know Judgment had True Angels, I was still thinking these Redeemed would be somewhat different to the never fallen angels, still figuring out how.

            You think Lucifer designed the Lores of the Fallen? I got the impression they are just lesser versions of their original more potent greater lores.

            I am thinking Angels may have developed Lores for the changing Creation after Fallen were Banished. This would be the sole methods of interacting with the aspects of Creation the Fallen are ignorant of like the Umbra and the Dreaming were hadn't split from the material when the Fallen were Banished.

            It would be interesting if say a Lore of the Dreaming and Lore of the Umbra existed. And Miracles representing the Unbridled Divine power of Heaven.
            Okay... yeah, I'm stumped now. I originally thought lores were a thing fallen developed during the war of wrath to battle the heavenly host, but re-reading the DTF books has brought to light that the lores are supposed to be lesser versions of what demons used to be able to do.

            Which brings the question, why are angels in ToJ using lores when they're untainted angels? Shouldn't they be at full power?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Prometheas View Post

              Okay... yeah, I'm stumped now. I originally thought lores were a thing fallen developed during the war of wrath to battle the heavenly host, but re-reading the DTF books has brought to light that the lores are supposed to be lesser versions of what demons used to be able to do.

              Which brings the question, why are angels in ToJ using lores when they're untainted angels? Shouldn't they be at full power?
              Exactly they should still have the lore powers demons use but also the weird flexible Lorea that they used to do things like design circulatory systems or set the movement of the spheres.

              Though Demon did have Rituals which were combination powers Lucifer invented during the war to combat the much more powerful Angels, but the thing is they work better as an example of what Angels did to sculpt the world, as they include powers such as making pocket universes, creating elementals, and shunting people into the void of space.

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              • #8
                Technically in TOJ Angels roll Attribute+Dice equal to number of extra faith points spent. So even if they didn't spend any faith they would be able to roll the relevant attribute score (which is set at 5 dots period for all attributes) so they could still do basically anything a skill/knowledge/talent would do at 'average' level but exceptional performanc would require the extra faith.

                As far as Lores go, those were the 'skills/tools' they built and manipulated creation by, although even calling them that is an oversimplification. It was tied to the importance of Names IIRC and I don't remembr where it was exactly laid out but the Lores were also essential parts of the Demon/Angel's being and identity - their soul. A bit like Attainments in Mage the Awakening I suppose (changing or adding Lores wasn't a trivial thing and could change the the Demon/Angel itself IIRC).

                And I always figured Angels in ToJ used lores in part because of the aforementioned 'tool/skillset' thing but also because it was a convenient way to simulate their abilities. Just as Mages technically had access to 'Lores' even though they're mortal.

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                • #9
                  Personally I don't see any compelling reason for redeemed/forgiven demons to be mechanically represented any differently than the un-fallen angels in ToJ.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
                    Personally I don't see any compelling reason for redeemed/forgiven demons to be mechanically represented any differently than the un-fallen angels in ToJ.
                    Well they would still have hosts for one. And even after leaving the body and becoming pure angel when killed they would still have been touched by humanity.

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                    • #11
                      I think also, most of the demons are described to have been diminished, and to have had parts of themselves torn away while imprisoned in the Abyss. Because of that, it seems like it'd be reasonable to keep redeemed/forgiven demons at a different mechanical level than angels who wouldn't have gone through that experience.

                      It would depend, of course, on what forgiveness/redemption actually means in an individual setting though. In some stories, it might mean a full restoration. In others, it might be just the start of a journey.

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