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  • #16
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

    I don't think any supernaturals were involved in the conquest of Mexico under Cortes. It was a very small number of human conquistadors (allied with lots of Mesoamericans who hated the Triple Alliance) who pulled it off. I think any supernatural creatures (Sabbat, Garou, whatever) came AFTER the conquest in order to exploit it.
    wrong, both the Camarilla and sabbat were there before the conquest,
    otherwise, the Aztec vampires wouldn't have blamed the Camarilla, and wouldn't have allied with the Sabbat against them

    I imagine the Sabbat began moving en masse to Mexico after they were defeated in the Sabbat-Camarilla Wars of the 17th century.
    or they simply embraced from the locals and european migrants, no need for a mass exodus


    -

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    • #17
      Black Fox thanks. I like your theory.


      The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Pleiades
        wrong, both the Camarilla and sabbat were there before the conquest
        The "Vampires" in Mesoamerica (before V5 retroactively retconned for whatever the Drowned guys are) pre-date the formation of both those Sects by a significant margin already. Also I put Vampires in quotation because if I remember from that Methuselah/Diablerie splat book centered around that Gangrel Methuselah in one of the chapters, I don't remember from reading his lore that the "Vampires" in Mesoamerica (Gangrel, Noseferatu, Lasombra, and a Tzimisce (4 in total) I think, again, correct me if I'm wrong) sired anyone whatsoever. They just made base with a few settled city-state kingdoms and that was it.

        By the time the Sabbat got there they were simply fighting the Mesoamerican Methuselahs..
        Last edited by Shakanaka; 10-03-2020, 06:02 PM.


        Jade Kingdom Warrior

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
          By the time the Sabbat got there they were simply fighting the Mesoamerican Methuselahs..
          I'd have to re-check the Mexico Book, but I'm pretty certain that they weren't just methuselahs but communities of higher gen kindred as well (of the Nos, Gangrel and Tlacique clans),
          at the very least, there should have been younger generations that came with the Vikings

          plus, if they were all methuselahs, I doubt the Sabbat would have succeeded,
          considering how easily they get enslaved by Mictlantecuhtli in the Gehenna book


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          • #20
            The Vikings didn’t land in Mexico. They landed much further north. Newfoundland.


            The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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            • #21
              I will mention that there is a theory that ancient Phoenicians may have possibly reached the Americas. There is pretty much no evidence to support said theory, and honestly it's mostly based on a mix of sketchy interpretation of certain features of ancient Olmec giant head sculptures by way of an Afrocentric "wishful-thinking" take on the ancient Middle East. But, as a fringe theory it is kind of interesting in the lens of the World of Darkness and its various paranormal powers.
              It's feasible - not necessarily true, or even likely, but just within the slim realm of possibility - that during the Bronze Age, sailors from the eastern Mediterranean may have stumbled upon the coast of what's now Brazil and the area around the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico. These could've been just mundane humans or they could've been some ancient forerunner of the Void Engineers or they could've been vampires guided by Auspex or other powers. (There's also the issue of mariner Gangrel just up and swimming there. And I'm not even getting into the idea that whatever sort of world it was that preceded "The Flood" might have seen much more contact between the various regions, or that it might've deposited yet unknown Antediluvians in the Americas.)

              Ultimately, I feel that what the various gods of ancient and classical Mexico are/were depends on which game you are running. If Werewolf, then they're probably fairly powerful spirit Incarna. If Mage, then they're, well, gods (which is to say ridiculously powerful umbral beings), in addition to the idea that some Mages have Avatars that appear in the form of various gods or mythical beings, and some powerful Mages - Mexican or otherwise - may use the names of various gods as personas they adapt either to take on some of the god's legend, out of a sense of hubris, or as part of their path of ascension (or a mix of the three). If Wraith, then they're probably powerful entities of the Obsidian underworld similar to the way people like The Lady of Fate or Anubis are in other areas. And in Changeling, they're probably the regional equivalent to True Fey.
              In the case of Vampire, kindred may take up the mantel of gods as a way to gain power and, especially, a willing herd eager to offer up their blood (and that of others) as a sacrifice. The region's long focus on blood as a sacred debt owed the gods for the gift of creation and life makes this fairly easy for vampires to pull off.

              As far as ancient American vampires, you have the option of "The Drowned" as the descendants of previously unknown and unnamed Antediluvians who survived The Flood and ended up in the Americas instead of Eurasia/Africa. The other option is that they are long diverged bloodlines (with a small b; I prefer to call them "strains" as a way of avoiding confusion with the big B ones) of existing Clans who after a millennia or more apart are very different from their originators. I'm of the opinion that the Gangrel, Nosferatu, Setites and Lasombra work really well for this, but some of the others may as well. I think certain surviving lines of the Cappadocians and Salubri in Latin America would be an interesting idea to play around with. And these two options are not mutually exclusive. There may be both Drowned and bloodlines/strains in the Americas.

              Ultimately, there's not really a wrong answer for this as long as it serves the purpose you need it to for your own game. Although that does come with the caveat of making an effort not to be purposefully disrespectful to the cultures involved. At least that's my opinion.


              What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
              Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Penelope View Post

                Sounding really clueless here: what’s Turtle Island?
                Several of the native cultures of the American Northeast - what are usually classified as the Northeastern Woodlands peoples - have a creation story in which a mass of earth is pulled up from under the sea so that it can be a new place for humans to live and grow. Turtle offered to carry this earth on his back so it wouldn't sink. (The Iroquois name for this Turtle is Hah-nu-nah, which is different from every day turtles, ha-no-wa.) The Lenape (also referred to as the Delaware) have a very similar story. Some activists have tried since the 1960s and 70s to make it an alternate name for North America. However, it doesn't really go with the cosmology/creation stories of cultures like the Lakota, the Muskogee (Creek), the Dine (Navajo), the Haida, or Mexica/Aztec.

                The Nahuatl (the Mexica language) word for what is now the Valley of Mexico is apparently Anahuac (which translates as "close to water", ie Lake Texcoco and the connecting lakes). Cemanahuac (roughly translating as "completely surrounded by water", ie the Pacific and the Gulf of Mexico) is apparently the term for all of Mesoamerica.


                What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                  I'm generally sympathetic to euhemeristic interpretations of old time mythologies in the WoD. The Aztecs are very interesting because their gods are so blood thirsty. There's a lot you can do with them in fictional portrayals in the WoD. Vampires? Changing Breeds? Fomori? Mages? Lots can work.

                  Using vampires in Mesoamerica in the WoD can be a frustrating experience because the game is of two minds. On one hand, they are not supposed to be presented prior to European contact because they are an artifact of the corrupted Old World whereas the New World is supposed to have been kept "pure" by the Three Brothers of the Garou. On the other hand, the Vampire game has long had the presence of certain ancient vampires in the Americas inexplicably. So they're supposed to be present, but extremely small and limited.

                  I think if you wanted to reconcile the two ideas, is that the Garou (Croatan, Uktena, Wendigo) and other Changing Breeds (especially Balam) did a good job purging North America of vampires because it's supposed to be non-urban, but that urban civilizations of Mesoamerica were finally allowing vampires to populate around the time of Columbus. It was a bit slow because most of the ancient vampires who came over were in torpor by this time, and the Balam and Uktena were still plentiful enough to kill most vampire spawn.

                  I don't think any supernaturals were involved in the conquest of Mexico under Cortes. It was a very small number of human conquistadors (allied with lots of Mesoamericans who hated the Triple Alliance) who pulled it off. I think any supernatural creatures (Sabbat, Garou, whatever) came AFTER the conquest in order to exploit it. I imagine the Sabbat began moving en masse to Mexico after they were defeated in the Sabbat-Camarilla Wars of the 17th century. Prior to that, there were a handful of both Camarilla and Sabbat vampires to move to the New World, but for the most part most vampires choose not to make the risky trip across the ocean for life in an inhospitable land. But after the Camarilla crushed the Sabbat during the great wars of the 17th century (there were a lot of terrible wars in the 1600s throughout Europe), a mass exodus took place.
                  Fun fact other Kingdoms didn’t hate the Nahuatl as much as people say


                  Firstly, there weren't a "tribes", Mesoamerica as a cultural region is defined by the fact it was filled with urban state societies, as opposed to less complex tribal societies or chiefdoms. By 1400 BC you had the first site with class systems, monumental archtecture, long distance trade, etc; by 900BC you had writing, and by 500BC you had formal state goverments. By 200AD formal political states based in cities and towns had become the norm across the region, from north-central mexico all the way down to Belize and Guatamala. Calling these "tribes" would be like calling the Athenians or Spartans tribes, these were city-states, kingdoms, and empires.

                  Secondly, there weren't a lot who allied themselves with the Spanish against the Aztec. The Aztec empire controlled around 60 major cities/provincal captials and hundreds of smaller cities, towns, and rural villages. There were also dozens of other notable political states in the region beyond the Aztec. Only 7 or so city-states and any of their smaller towns/villages they had domionon over, namely Tlaxcala, Huextozinco, Texcoco, Chalco, Xochmilco, Itzapalapa, and Mixquic; particpated in the siege of Tenochtitlan (the Aztec captial), though Racoon is correct that the number of Mesoamerican soldiers particpating in that siege was between 80,000 to 200,000.

                  Thirdly, the idea that other city-states "hated the Aztec" is a misunderstanding of actual Mesoamerican politics. Generally speaking, the Mesoamerican political landscape was characterized by the fact that, due to the lack of draft animals, you did not see much direct governing of foreign cities. Empires and kingdoms tended to cement political authority via hands off means, be it political marriages, installing rulers on conquered cities, tributary relationships, the sheer fear of military action if you didn't acquiescence, genealogical connections to prior respected civilizations or kings, the sheer prestige/your own status if you were that big a deal, one's economic and trade networks, etc. So while the Aztec Empire was certainly an expansionistic state, it did not directly rule over the cities it conquered. As long as cities paid their annual taxes of economic goods, aided on military campaigns, and put up a shrine to Huitzilopotchli, Aztec-controlled cities kept their own political and administrative agency, and cultural and religious practices. They were not typically enslaved or oppressed or raided for sacrifices. Some cities and states even willingly joined the Aztec Empire without being asked just for protection from foreign treats, wanting greater acces to the Aztec trade network, etc.

                  So was the Aztec Empire hated or disliked? To the extent that any large political power that tends to conquer and wage war is, sure, but they weren't particlarly tyrannical or abusive to their subjects.

                  In fact, all but 2 of cities particpating in the Siege on Tenochtitlan were inside the Valley of Mexico, the cultural, political and economic heartland of the Aztec Empire; and as such would be benefitting from the influx of economic goods and political power the ruling trio of cities were bringing into the valley. And those 2 cities that weren't in the Valley of Mexico, Tlaxcala and Huextozinco, weren't even Aztec controlled, instead being in an uncoquered enclave the next valley over, and only Tlaxcala joined forces with the Spanish before Montezuma II died and the intial smallpox outbreak broke out, which actually tells you the real reason the Spanish got allies: Geopolitical opporutism.

                  I mentioned above how the Aztec Empoire like most Mesoamerican states didn't directly govern subserivent cities and each city still retained it's own political and adminstrative agency. In effect that means that even internally, empires and kingdoms were complicated webs of diplomatic, economic, and political connections, with cities using indirect and direct means of subervsions and manipulation to further their own gepolitical standing and interests. As an example, whenever an Aztec Empreror died, border provinces many hundreds of kilometers away would invariablyh cease paying tribute, to see what they could get away with, and the new emperor would have to launch campaigns to re-establish authority over these areas, with their skill at doing so informing ohter kings of the competency of the new ruler. In cases where new ruler preformed poorly, such as Tizoc, many more provinces would secede, and the overall esteem and political power of Tenochtitlan would diminish. In the end, Tizoc was assassinated by his own nobility and even the next emperor, despite success re-conquereing the territories Tizoc had lost, was blown off and dimissised by foreign kings for his coronation ceremoney since Tenochtitlan's reputation was that damaged.

                  Tlaxcala (which, btw, was actually a unified republic of 4 main city-states with a collective senate) was actively being invaded and blockaded by the Aztec when the Spanish showed up, so it joining forces with the Spanish was natural, and is a exlempary example of native states using the SPanish to their own political example., In fact, the Spanish only ARRIVED at Tlaxcala thanks to the city of Cempoala having previously manipulated the spanisah into raiding a rival city for them by pretending an Aztec fort they wanted to be free of was loicated there, and then after they used the SPanish to take out their rivals, they tricked the Spanish into arriveing in Tlaxcala, where the Tlaxcallans promptly defeated the Spanish, sparing them at thew last minute to use against the Aztec. En route to Tenochtitlan, when the Tlaxcallans and Spanish were resting in the city of Cholula, the Cholula massacre took place. This is traditionally thought to have been done by Cortes, either in response to a plot the Aztec ordered the Cholula goverment to do to assassinate the spanish in their sleep or out of spanish greed or paranoia, depending on whose account you go by, but there's a theory this massacre was instead orchestrated by the Tlaxcala, who fed Cortes information for him to preform it, at which point, as nosted in various accounts, the Tlaxcallans helped visocuously sacking the city, the theory goes being in revenge for Cholula recently having switched allegencies to being Pro-Aztec, when it was located inside a narrow pass that connected the valley of Mexico and the valley of tlaxcala, with Cholula being friendly to the Aztec being a major threat to the Tlaxcallans.

                  The fact that the other cities that particpated in the siege including the other two beyond Tlaxcala who actually had grienveces against Tenochtitlan, that being Huextozinco (who, like cholula, were located along that pass and was a frequent victim of Aztec occpuation as they attempted to make inroads on Tlaxcala through said pass) and Texcoco (who was actually the second most powerful Aztec city, but had seen interference by Tenochtitlan in a successon dispute between the two heirs after the city's king died a few years before the Spanish showing up, where the heir not favored by Tenochtitlan being bitter about it), only joined AFTER Montezuma II's death and the city being crippled by Smallpox should tell you that these other cities joing the Spanish and Tlaxcallans had more to do with Tenochtitlan losing it's king and being weakened by the epidemic then out of any particuilar hatred. In the decades of subsquent campaigns across the region (which nobody ever talks about because public education about Mesoamerican socities and the Spanish conquyest are shit) against the various other city-states, Kingdoms, and empires in the region, you continue to see native polities using the spanish against their own rivals or cediing to Spanish authority, since that's how Mesoamerican geopolitics worked, you ascquenced to a more powerful political entitity and kept your own indepedence effectively, hoping to furhter your political interests and eventually stake out your own status as a captial; except they couldn't predict how both European pathogens and imperalism would make doing so a mistake.


                  https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENED...omment/ewo2ktm
                  Last edited by Konradleijon; 10-04-2020, 02:56 AM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post

                    Fun fact other Kingdoms didn’t hate the Nahuatl as much as people say


                    Firstly, there weren't a "tribes", Mesoamerica as a cultural region is defined by the fact it was filled with urban state societies, as opposed to less complex tribal societies or chiefdoms. By 1400 BC you had the first site with class systems, monumental archtecture, long distance trade, etc; by 900BC you had writing, and by 500BC you had formal state goverments. By 200AD formal political states based in cities and towns had become the norm across the region, from north-central mexico all the way down to Belize and Guatamala. Calling these "tribes" would be like calling the Athenians or Spartans tribes, these were city-states, kingdoms, and empires.

                    Secondly, there weren't a lot who allied themselves with the Spanish against the Aztec. The Aztec empire controlled around 60 major cities/provincal captials and hundreds of smaller cities, towns, and rural villages. There were also dozens of other notable political states in the region beyond the Aztec. Only 7 or so city-states and any of their smaller towns/villages they had domionon over, namely Tlaxcala, Huextozinco, Texcoco, Chalco, Xochmilco, Itzapalapa, and Mixquic; particpated in the siege of Tenochtitlan (the Aztec captial), though Racoon is correct that the number of Mesoamerican soldiers particpating in that siege was between 80,000 to 200,000.

                    Thirdly, the idea that other city-states "hated the Aztec" is a misunderstanding of actual Mesoamerican politics. Generally speaking, the Mesoamerican political landscape was characterized by the fact that, due to the lack of draft animals, you did not see much direct governing of foreign cities. Empires and kingdoms tended to cement political authority via hands off means, be it political marriages, installing rulers on conquered cities, tributary relationships, the sheer fear of military action if you didn't acquiescence, genealogical connections to prior respected civilizations or kings, the sheer prestige/your own status if you were that big a deal, one's economic and trade networks, etc. So while the Aztec Empire was certainly an expansionistic state, it did not directly rule over the cities it conquered. As long as cities paid their annual taxes of economic goods, aided on military campaigns, and put up a shrine to Huitzilopotchli, Aztec-controlled cities kept their own political and administrative agency, and cultural and religious practices. They were not typically enslaved or oppressed or raided for sacrifices. Some cities and states even willingly joined the Aztec Empire without being asked just for protection from foreign treats, wanting greater acces to the Aztec trade network, etc.

                    So was the Aztec Empire hated or disliked? To the extent that any large political power that tends to conquer and wage war is, sure, but they weren't particlarly tyrannical or abusive to their subjects.

                    In fact, all but 2 of cities particpating in the Siege on Tenochtitlan were inside the Valley of Mexico, the cultural, political and economic heartland of the Aztec Empire; and as such would be benefitting from the influx of economic goods and political power the ruling trio of cities were bringing into the valley. And those 2 cities that weren't in the Valley of Mexico, Tlaxcala and Huextozinco, weren't even Aztec controlled, instead being in an uncoquered enclave the next valley over, and only Tlaxcala joined forces with the Spanish before Montezuma II died and the intial smallpox outbreak broke out, which actually tells you the real reason the Spanish got allies: Geopolitical opporutism.

                    I mentioned above how the Aztec Empoire like most Mesoamerican states didn't directly govern subserivent cities and each city still retained it's own political and adminstrative agency. In effect that means that even internally, empires and kingdoms were complicated webs of diplomatic, economic, and political connections, with cities using indirect and direct means of subervsions and manipulation to further their own gepolitical standing and interests. As an example, whenever an Aztec Empreror died, border provinces many hundreds of kilometers away would invariablyh cease paying tribute, to see what they could get away with, and the new emperor would have to launch campaigns to re-establish authority over these areas, with their skill at doing so informing ohter kings of the competency of the new ruler. In cases where new ruler preformed poorly, such as Tizoc, many more provinces would secede, and the overall esteem and political power of Tenochtitlan would diminish. In the end, Tizoc was assassinated by his own nobility and even the next emperor, despite success re-conquereing the territories Tizoc had lost, was blown off and dimissised by foreign kings for his coronation ceremoney since Tenochtitlan's reputation was that damaged.

                    Tlaxcala (which, btw, was actually a unified republic of 4 main city-states with a collective senate) was actively being invaded and blockaded by the Aztec when the Spanish showed up, so it joining forces with the Spanish was natural, and is a exlempary example of native states using the SPanish to their own political example., In fact, the Spanish only ARRIVED at Tlaxcala thanks to the city of Cempoala having previously manipulated the spanisah into raiding a rival city for them by pretending an Aztec fort they wanted to be free of was loicated there, and then after they used the SPanish to take out their rivals, they tricked the Spanish into arriveing in Tlaxcala, where the Tlaxcallans promptly defeated the Spanish, sparing them at thew last minute to use against the Aztec. En route to Tenochtitlan, when the Tlaxcallans and Spanish were resting in the city of Cholula, the Cholula massacre took place. This is traditionally thought to have been done by Cortes, either in response to a plot the Aztec ordered the Cholula goverment to do to assassinate the spanish in their sleep or out of spanish greed or paranoia, depending on whose account you go by, but there's a theory this massacre was instead orchestrated by the Tlaxcala, who fed Cortes information for him to preform it, at which point, as nosted in various accounts, the Tlaxcallans helped visocuously sacking the city, the theory goes being in revenge for Cholula recently having switched allegencies to being Pro-Aztec, when it was located inside a narrow pass that connected the valley of Mexico and the valley of tlaxcala, with Cholula being friendly to the Aztec being a major threat to the Tlaxcallans.

                    The fact that the other cities that particpated in the siege including the other two beyond Tlaxcala who actually had grienveces against Tenochtitlan, that being Huextozinco (who, like cholula, were located along that pass and was a frequent victim of Aztec occpuation as they attempted to make inroads on Tlaxcala through said pass) and Texcoco (who was actually the second most powerful Aztec city, but had seen interference by Tenochtitlan in a successon dispute between the two heirs after the city's king died a few years before the Spanish showing up, where the heir not favored by Tenochtitlan being bitter about it), only joined AFTER Montezuma II's death and the city being crippled by Smallpox should tell you that these other cities joing the Spanish and Tlaxcallans had more to do with Tenochtitlan losing it's king and being weakened by the epidemic then out of any particuilar hatred. In the decades of subsquent campaigns across the region (which nobody ever talks about because public education about Mesoamerican socities and the Spanish conquyest are shit) against the various other city-states, Kingdoms, and empires in the region, you continue to see native polities using the spanish against their own rivals or cediing to Spanish authority, since that's how Mesoamerican geopolitics worked, you ascquenced to a more powerful political entitity and kept your own indepedence effectively, hoping to furhter your political interests and eventually stake out your own status as a captial; except they couldn't predict how both European pathogens and imperalism would make doing so a mistake.


                    https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENED...omment/ewo2ktm
                    Wow! Thank you.


                    The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                    • #25
                      I think Shaitan as the Sun God of the Aztecs doesn't work. Not because of any moral qualities but that Huitzilopochtli is too interesting to be a Baali "Grrr, evil" creature. They should be their own character.

                      Ditto the mage version of the Feathered Serpent.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                        I think Shaitan as the Sun God of the Aztecs doesn't work. Not because of any moral qualities but that Huitzilopochtli is too interesting to be a Baali "Grrr, evil" creature. They should be their own character.

                        Ditto the mage version of the Feathered Serpent.
                        Yeah the Aztec gods have all this moral nuance to them. And not just “Good” and “Bad”

                        It’s pretty obvious that no one on Nineties White Wolf was a theologian.
                        Last edited by Konradleijon; 10-14-2020, 05:26 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                          I think Shaitan as the Sun God of the Aztecs doesn't work. Not because of any moral qualities but that Huitzilopochtli is too interesting to be a Baali "Grrr, evil" creature. They should be their own character.

                          Ditto the mage version of the Feathered Serpent.
                          I agree with you.


                          The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Penelope View Post
                            Tezcatlipoca was Lasombra, not Setite? I thought he founded the Tlacique (a Setite bloodline)?
                            I am pretty sure you are correct. He seemed to be the Childer of Set, but not knowing of the Gods of Khem or the Followers of Set he was essentially the first of a new clan, unless he was from the old World. But he had great Powers of Obtenebration and that is why the poster was confused. But even with Serpentis 9 you can become a being of the same Abyssal Substance as Obtenebration.

                            And Turtle Island was a mythical name some of North America had for the World/America/s. The Fae knew it as Empire of the Turtle.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                              I'm generally sympathetic to euhemeristic interpretations of old time mythologies in the WoD. The Aztecs are very interesting because their gods are so blood thirsty. There's a lot you can do with them in fictional portrayals in the WoD. Vampires? Changing Breeds? Fomori? Mages? Lots can work.

                              Using vampires in Mesoamerica in the WoD can be a frustrating experience because the game is of two minds. On one hand, they are not supposed to be presented prior to European contact because they are an artifact of the corrupted Old World whereas the New World is supposed to have been kept "pure" by the Three Brothers of the Garou. On the other hand, the Vampire game has long had the presence of certain ancient vampires in the Americas inexplicably. So they're supposed to be present, but extremely small and limited.

                              I think if you wanted to reconcile the two ideas, is that the Garou (Croatan, Uktena, Wendigo) and other Changing Breeds (especially Balam) did a good job purging North America of vampires because it's supposed to be non-urban, but that urban civilizations of Mesoamerica were finally allowing vampires to populate around the time of Columbus. It was a bit slow because most of the ancient vampires who came over were in torpor by this time, and the Balam and Uktena were still plentiful enough to kill most vampire spawn.

                              I don't think any supernaturals were involved in the conquest of Mexico under Cortes. It was a very small number of human conquistadors (allied with lots of Mesoamericans who hated the Triple Alliance) who pulled it off. I think any supernatural creatures (Sabbat, Garou, whatever) came AFTER the conquest in order to exploit it. I imagine the Sabbat began moving en masse to Mexico after they were defeated in the Sabbat-Camarilla Wars of the 17th century. Prior to that, there were a handful of both Camarilla and Sabbat vampires to move to the New World, but for the most part most vampires choose not to make the risky trip across the ocean for life in an inhospitable land. But after the Camarilla crushed the Sabbat during the great wars of the 17th century (there were a lot of terrible wars in the 1600s throughout Europe), a mass exodus took place.
                              What calling a oppressed cultures gods fomori is kind of tone death. Like even more so then usual 90ties White Wolf

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                                I am pretty sure you are correct. He seemed to be the Childer of Set, but not knowing of the Gods of Khem or the Followers of Set he was essentially the first of a new clan, unless he was from the old World. But he had great Powers of Obtenebration and that is why the poster was confused. But even with Serpentis 9 you can become a being of the same Abyssal Substance as Obtenebration.

                                And Turtle Island was a mythical name some of North America had for the World/America/s. The Fae knew it as Empire of the Turtle.
                                Thanks 😊. That totally makes sense.


                                The die is cast. - Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon

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