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  • #16
    D:tF has its own rules for things like trying to weaponize Faith or the demon's true name in order to bind it; outside of those exact circumstances, I'd allow a Demon who knows the Lore of Portals to unravel the ward with a roll of Manipulation + Intuition versus difficulty equal to the ward creator's Thaumaturgy or whatever stat the creator's splat uses.

    It's a matter of where the magic came from and who has authority over it. If the fallen angel had a hand in writing the source code for the ward's magic or for doors themselves as a concept into the universe's operating system, then the limitation imposed by trying to live in a finite monkey matter human brain is the only reason the angel has to roll dice at all.
    Last edited by Reasor; 10-18-2020, 11:29 PM.

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    • #17
      Meh, D:TF was never completed by any margin and we don't really know what's really true about them besides their own unreliable narrative.


      Jade Kingdom Warrior

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      • #18
        Sure, and I'm definitely only suggesting how I'd houserule it myself.

        The point about the demonic narrators of the books being unreliable is also a sound one that should be kept in mind by anyone who finds the creatures too disruptive to the mythologies of the other game lines.

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        • #19
          Short answer: I assume all the bad spirits out there actually are part of the same team. Call them demons if you want. But that does not mean everything is of the same categorical essence as the actual fallen angels.

          I always assumed the Angelic and Demonic Plasmics that were "not" actual Angels or Demons were a nod and wink to the reader. To people who did not want something so defined by the Abrahamic faith, they could portray them as not really angels or demons. For those STs that wanted them to be, they were. So to me, they were actually the same things. I'm undecided on the Neverborn whether they are actually Demons, or something more like Leviathan and Behemoth (and possibly the Serpent in Eden) as something antagonistic to God which somehow predates Lucifer's Rebellion. I tilt towards the latter.

          As for Banes, I've thought long and hard about them. I've decided they are the bad spirits either intrinsic to the Middle Umbra, or in some cases how demons manifest in the Middle Umbra. Not all are "demons" as people typically think of them, but those that aren't are essentially low level servitors. I hold that the "Wyrm" is actually just an explanation by Garou as to how they handle the philosophical Problem of Evil in their religion. This isn't to say that the Triat isn't real, but that they shove a ton of stuff under that label that may not actually be the case. In many cases when Garou say the Wyrm, they may actually be referring to the Wyrm, Satan, Nyarlathotep, or something else entirely.

          I'm a WoD purist in the sense I only use the original five gamelines. So I've never used Demon: the Fallen. And I know little about it. But if I did ever use it, I would simply say that is a much more in depth depiction of the typical Demons found in the Astral Plane, usually depicted in Mage. Which are the same demons that Infernalists in all the game lines are involved with.

          I try to run the games I ST in a way that does not present the Abrahamic faith as intrinsically correct. I want the players to doubt and to feel comfortable that other faiths are not objectively wrong. So if they want to have their characters be of other faiths, there's nothing telling them they are incorrect. But if you absolutely had to pin me down, I ultimately run the game with the idea that the Abrahamic God is real (but other faiths can be correct up to a point, and that does not mean that everything "known" by its adherents are actually correct). I think its vital to certain conceits of Gothic Horror that there is a Providence that intervenes sometimes. But there's no way any PC could ever learn that in game. Much like life.

          When I run Call of Cthulhu, it's a completely atheistic world because that's what Lovecraft's mythos is about.

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          • #20
            Yes, the Abrahamic God can be real while there would be even older Gods existing simultaneously too. I like the idea that the weight of Consciousness and particular "Forms" can birth new Gods (just like the Astral Umbra is significantly influenced by general conceptions and ideas), while some go more and more into the background as their influence wanes. Though the true what ACTUALLY created the Tellurium is up and the air, with the Gods not even being able to know. The more removed reality you are, the more you simultaneously exist- but still do somehow. Sort of like Sithis from the Elder Scroll series.


            Jade Kingdom Warrior

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            • #21
              I definitely agree that a good way of looking at demons would be as an umbrella term do entities which are batting for the cosmic forces of corruption, entropy, and corrupted entropy.

              They may have different reasons for this but in many cases the ultimate reason can be boiled down to ‘this is all bullshit, I’m gonna make everything worse, hopefully existence is over soon’ and there’s a common thread of that attitude through several game lines although interestingly not everything infernal actually does buy into that notion.

              Infernalists in Vampire are generally either after power or the genuine religious experience of serving demons. Vampires by their nature have a vested interest in perpetuating existence although their existence is also passively clogging the world with their inherent stasis and corruption. Still, vampires are probably more a symptom of a larger problem and something which exasperated said problem more then anything else. Interestingly, some groups of vampiric infernalists such as certain Baali actually serve entities which would like to destroy existence explicitly to sooth these beings and keep them relatively content with their circumstances rather then actively trying to consume Everything and revert reality back to the primordial Nothing from which they come. So vampires are interesting here.

              The Wyrm itself as a member of the Triat is meant to embody entropy and is a necessary part of the cycle of existence but The Fallen Triat and particularly the Fallen Wyrm have become big champions of the cosmic problems in the WoD. The Wyrm wants to corrupt everything to the point of total and inevitable systems collapse so as to escape the fetters of existence binding it. However that’s a corruption of its true nature rather then being its true nature. The Fallen Wyrm is an animist reflection of this corrupted cosmic force of nihilistic entropy and while its not the whole picture it still must be dealt with as if it were ever to succeed in its goals, even if only on the Middle Umbra, the repercussions of the anismist spiritual realm falling into corruption and nothingness would be pretty Bad™️ for life as we know it.

              The Awakened paint an even clearer picture of this. While paradigm refracts it in different ways, every paradigm must wrestle with the concepts of entropy, corruption, and what humans call evil. These are dealt with in different ways but a paradigm agnostic perspective definitively acknowledges the presence of Entropy as a necessary cosmic force. Unfortunately the true Nephandi, the corrupt nihilists, are representative of the great cosmic threat. The desire to allow the baser parts of reality to be the cause of its putrefaction and dissolution into cosmic Nothing. The mere existence of the Nephandi and the way in which their dark magick seems to taint reality itself indicates to me a broad cosmic threat.

              Wraith is where we see a truly blatant example of this meta-threat with Oblivion. Orpheus will later touch on this even further but it acknowledges Oblivion as the Mouth of Nothing (the Grand Maw) which desires to consume everything and which has become an inducer of specters, angst, and corruption more and more as time has gone on. A growing existential threat and while Oblivion is most directly a threat to the Lower Umbra, the realm of spiritual memory, it is still terrifying in its scope in implications. It provides, in a way, perceptible proof in the claims of the Gaians and Nephandi. The Void is there and it is hungry.

              Changeling also touches this, but like everything it does, it does this in what I find to be a fascinatingly unique way. The typical group you’d expect to find as the allies of the Sabbat or BSD, the Dark-Kin and Thallain, are not actually the example of this corrupt cosmic entropy. Certainly the thallain and those who deal in Nightmare Glamour are interested in actively worsening the circumstances of humanity, they aren’t doing so because they want to destroy reality. Their doing so because of two reasons. 1: it’s in their nature and they enjoy doing it. 2: it weakens the fetters that lock the Fomorians/The Elder Dark outside the human world. Yet while the Elder Dark does want to shatter higher human reason and civilization they don’t want to break down reality utterly, they simply want to return to a time when the Dreaming was filled with only the most base and primordial dreams. While the destruction of higher humanity would effectively end the world as we know it, it’s not quite what the Wyrm/Nephandi/Oblivion seem to want; although perhaps the concepts parallel. The Elder Dark would still want the Dreaming to be nourished on the animal dreams of hunger, fear, and pleasure. No, I think the part of Changeling which more directly mirrors this cosmic threat is the Daulain, Autumn People, and Banality. These are the forces of the cold world which denies Glamour and the Dreaming. While this may seem relatively trivial in the grand scheme of things, it would be just as disastrous as the Wyrm consuming the Middle Umbra or Oblivion swallowing the Lower Umbra. If Banality truly eroded the Dreaming it would leave humanity in an even worse place then the Elder Dark would. It would be the death of passion, feeling, and imagination. All that would be left is a dull numbness and the most rote and practical sensibilities. For the beings who are so obviously connected with humanity’s psychic/spiritual impact on the world as the corrupt cosmic forces are this may be as good as any dissolution of existence could ever be. After all to a spiritual being, what’s the great distinction between an empty existence and no existence at all?

              The sixth branch I want to tie in, controversial as it is and as loosely versed in it as I am, comes from the Lotus products. Kindred of the East, Beasts of the Emerald Court, etc. The spiritual perspective shown here reflects the issues already seen with the danger to The Wheel being well known and of great concern. Should the Wheel be broken or halted as the Yama Kings obviously hope for that would ruin the world as thoroughly as any victory of the Wyrm, Oblivion, or Descension and may even be the precursor of such things. We see the themes in these lines which reflect the others but there is another theme which I feel ties both into Reckoning and Fallen. The connection made with higher actors at the beginning of things and their role in the world’s current dire straits. This can be seen with the Ten Thousand Immortals and their fall and I feel that an association can be drawn from them to the Imbued and Fallen both. Still, my point is, that these lines provide another perspective for even greater understanding of the existential threat which is assigned the title of ‘demon’.

              Demon the Fallen goes the most intimately into this and I’ve spoken at length about my opinion regarding the relevance of MULTI-RESONANCE LAYERED REALITY. Suffice to say, it’s of great importance. Regardless, the Tormented Fallen and Earthbound of Fallen reflect many of the similar antagonists from other game lines. They vary between a desire to create Hell on Earth and to destroy Existence entirely, the ultimate revenge against G-D and Humanity. I’ve often seen the Fallen associated with the Higher Umbra and I think that is a useful way of looking at things in that the Heaven which they and the Ten Thousand Immortals/Hsien describe is likely analogous in respects to the Higher Umbra. They embody the realm of spiritual thought and through their variety of perspectives we see the same cosmic threat as ever but with what may be an even more intimate recollection of the origins.

              An Abrahamic paradigm is often used as the standard lenses for understanding the origin of this cosmic threat across many game lines but I think that Mage and Demon together do a great deal to indicate that this is only one truth of many potential truths to describe what can be understood.

              Yes the reason for things can be understood through the perspective of Original Sin, the War in Heaven & Subsequent Fall From Grace, and the First Murder committed by Cain which spilt the blood of Creation upon Creation and whet the already starting engines of corrupted entropy.

              However that is only one analogy by which to understand the circumstances that the World of Darkness is describing. The Gaians, the Awakened, the Dreamers; they are all accurate in what they describe even if each group only has one part of the greater story which often defies ready comprehension.

              Why I think this is so important and valuable though is as it’s use as an analogy for real life as well. Setting aside religion and spirituality and symbolism, what is really being said?

              There was a time before humanity and human things such as morality and law and civilization as we know them. Humans obtained sentience and the simplicity of the earlier times were thus denied to them forever. Their higher understanding made them capable of what we would consider good and evil. Eventually the nature of that enlightenment and our circumstances led people into conflict with one another. We destroyed the things most like ourselves. We began conflicts that would begin to forever alter our potential history. We are living today in the resulting consequence of every action that humanity has taken before our time and most every problem that increases our suffering today can be followed back to the decisions of those who came before us.

              We are not guilty for the sins of our ancestors but we are shaped by them and if we stand idle then the consequences of those sins will continue to perpetuate and only gain further inertia with our inaction and further potency with our wrong action. The consequences of what had been done before us, what we do, and what we don’t do leads to suffering today and could one day cause catastrophes that will end our world as we know it.

              “Demons” are representations that we give to these things to better understand them. While we are surrounded by suffering though, their is still beauty in it which we can’t let ourselves be blinded too by the darkness around us. This is the Gothic aspect of the World of Darkness. We are not condemned to our worst possible destinies or to endure the evils we know forever. Perhaps there will always be evil but that doesn’t make the fight against evil and suffering and injustice any less necessary or valid. This is where the Punk in the World of Darkness comes from. The never ending need and desire to fight for your hopes and your world.

              Sorry for the long post but this ended up becoming a little essay about why I love the World of Darkness so much. Hope y’all enjoyed it.

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              • #22
                Thanks for an excellent response

                Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                Short answer: I assume all the bad spirits out there actually are part of the same team. Call them demons if you want. But that does not mean everything is of the same categorical essence as the actual fallen angels.
                See, I'm not necessarily inclined to believe that all "demons"/evil spirits are on the same "team" necessarily. But I do agree that these various things would likely be different from each other in nature for the most part. My question is whether or not they might all possess some trait that serves as a "connecting thread" of sort which might explain why they might all be on the same "team" or all be affected by spells targeting a vague label like "demon." Going back to the notion of "taint," my thought was that there might be some connection between the various curses, corruption, etc., that you see across the various WoD gamelines; the Curse of Caine, the (supposed) corruption of the Wyrm and Weaver, the Qlippoth and Nephandi, the Shadow of Wraiths, the Torment of the Fallen, etc., etc.

                Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                I always assumed the Angelic and Demonic Plasmics that were "not" actual Angels or Demons were a nod and wink to the reader. To people who did not want something so defined by the Abrahamic faith, they could portray them as not really angels or demons. For those STs that wanted them to be, they were. So to me, they were actually the same things. I'm undecided on the Neverborn whether they are actually Demons, or something more like Leviathan and Behemoth (and possibly the Serpent in Eden) as something antagonistic to God which somehow predates Lucifer's Rebellion. I tilt towards the latter.
                As a matter of fact, I'm inclined to see Angelics and Demonics from Wraith as among the least likely candidates to qualify, precisely because I remember seeing hints that they are nothing more than Wraiths that have been Moliated, brainwashed, and who-knows-what-else, in order to serve in a false Judeo-Christian afterlife. Wraith isn't my strong suit, I'd have to double-check. I mostly included them because they came up as potential examples of "demons" on the wiki :P As for the Neverborn, I mostly care in order to determine their relationship to groups like the Baali that tend to just serve whatever awful Thing they can find; there's also mention in some book somewhere that the Neverborn may be the source of every horrible thing that the Nephandi serve, I think, so that merits consideration.

                Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                As for Banes, I've thought long and hard about them. I've decided they are the bad spirits either intrinsic to the Middle Umbra, or in some cases how demons manifest in the Middle Umbra. Not all are "demons" as people typically think of them, but those that aren't are essentially low level servitors. I hold that the "Wyrm" is actually just an explanation by Garou as to how they handle the philosophical Problem of Evil in their religion. This isn't to say that the Triat isn't real, but that they shove a ton of stuff under that label that may not actually be the case. In many cases when Garou say the Wyrm, they may actually be referring to the Wyrm, Satan, Nyarlathotep, or something else entirely.
                Banes are an interesting case because it does go back to that question of whether the word "demon" is just a label, or whether it actually refers to some kind of tangible corruption or evil. Until relatively recently, I'd been inclined to accept the "corruption" of the Weaver and Wyrm in the Garou mythos mostly at face value, even if I was willing to undermine other concepts of their worldview. But conversations I've had and seen on these boards have left me a bit more inclined to view that as a point-of-view bias from the Garou. Your note about tons of things that aren't actually Triat-related getting shoved under those labels actually fits well with my own ideas, given that Kindred typically come off as Wyrm-tainted to Garou, but that is definitely not their origin in my canon.

                Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                I'm a WoD purist in the sense I only use the original five gamelines. So I've never used Demon: the Fallen. And I know little about it. But if I did ever use it, I would simply say that is a much more in depth depiction of the typical Demons found in the Astral Plane, usually depicted in Mage. Which are the same demons that Infernalists in all the game lines are involved with.
                I am a WoD amateur, in that I have very little practical experience running any gamelines, but lots of second-hand information cobbled together with the relatively small amount of direct experience I have with the actual books and mechanics :P Regarding the idea of having the Fallen directly fit into the Astral Umbrood slot, I definitely find it interesting, but I'm not sure that I am a fan. I think that one of the appeals comes from it reducing the "clutter" that comes up in the "demon" category without getting rid of too much; I think the distinctive nature of the Djinn might demonstrate the potential for Astral beings with unique traits. I think where it becomes a problem is that my current conception of the Abrahamic God is a bit too big to confine the Elohim/Fallen to being purely Astral entities.

                Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                I try to run the games I ST in a way that does not present the Abrahamic faith as intrinsically correct. I want the players to doubt and to feel comfortable that other faiths are not objectively wrong. So if they want to have their characters be of other faiths, there's nothing telling them they are incorrect. But if you absolutely had to pin me down, I ultimately run the game with the idea that the Abrahamic God is real (but other faiths can be correct up to a point, and that does not mean that everything "known" by its adherents are actually correct). I think its vital to certain conceits of Gothic Horror that there is a Providence that intervenes sometimes. But there's no way any PC could ever learn that in game. Much like life.

                When I run Call of Cthulhu, it's a completely atheistic world because that's what Lovecraft's mythos is about.
                Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                Yes, the Abrahamic God can be real while there would be even older Gods existing simultaneously too. I like the idea that the weight of Consciousness and particular "Forms" can birth new Gods (just like the Astral Umbra is significantly influenced by general conceptions and ideas), while some go more and more into the background as their influence wanes. Though the true what ACTUALLY created the Tellurium is up and the air, with the Gods not even being able to know. The more removed reality you are, the more you simultaneously exist- but still do somehow. Sort of like Sithis from the Elder Scroll series.
                I really enjoy and agree with what you have to say in the last part of your post, Black Fox Shakanaka's point about the Abrahamic God existing while other older entities do as well is really in line with my current concept for the Abrahamic God; Elder Scrolls has influenced some of my ideas as well ^_^ I am a huge fan of Lovecraftian nihilism, and it's a big influence on how I handle both the cosmic-scale Powers That Be of the WoD and the entities or forces that are actually capable of threatening them. Gaia and God are both real, but their wants/needs/agendas exist on a scale that makes the wishes of individuals at our level utterly irrelevant to them, and might even be insane by our standards.

                My current conception of the Abrahamic God is that It/They are the 'God of Humanity' in a sense; the collective Divinity of all of Humanity. God is the Avatar in every Mage, because God is the collective Soul of the human race. They are something akin to Gaia's 'younger kin.' One theory I have is that God was born as a consequence of the Dragon War and the expenditure of the Mnesis, transforming into something new rather than just vanishing. The Elohim would then be responsible for the "Wonder-Work," which is what they generally remember (somewhat mistakenly) as the creation of the Universe; the structuring of an extremely fluid Tellurian into something more stable, capable of supporting the nascent development of Humanity (including a more stable history with things like dinosaurs instead of magical dragon empires; the Mokole's memory basically end up being a rare exception to this 'cosmic retcon'). Meanwhile, the War in Heaven essentially amounts to God having an internal argument with themselves about the future of Humanity/"Humanity" having an argument with itself about its own destiny; one more in harmony with/subservient to Gaia, or one with Humanity ascendant over the Tellurian.

                P.S. Oh no, now I owe what I assume to be an excellent response from Gryffon a thorough reading :O lol

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                • #23
                  In our game we used this rule for defining different kinds of demons:
                  1. Fallen Angels, those are called demon though they are like the dark Jedi technically no demons/sith
                  2. Spirits, those are called that because they behave like it or vice versa.
                  3. Outer enteties, the kind of things that follow the Outer Lords and are summoned by Nephandi. In our game we just said that the things that encourage the fleshforming disciple of the Tzimisce are of this kind too.


                  As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
                  First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
                  Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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                  • #24
                    Gryffon15 Sorry for the late reply, there is indeed a lot there to break down and consider!

                    See, if "corruption" or "Taint" is a Thing, then I'm more inclined to see that as the "defining" quality of "demons," rather than a strict association with Entropy. While the Torment of the Fallen is arguably an "Entropic" quality, I see them as more than just beings of Entropy. And that really is the central question for me, in a lot of ways; if, or how much, the negative state of the WoD can be attributed to an objective or quantifiable "corruption" or "evil," or if it really is more a matter of perspective.

                    The "corruption" of the Wyrm and the "threat" of Oblivion are two great examples of this. The idea that the "corruption" of the Wyrm and Weaver may just be a relative value judgment by the Garou has been discussed already in this thread, but I've also seen interesting discussions on this forum of the idea that "Oblivion" isn't actually a threat, and all the negative stuff associated with it is actually the embodiment of the angst and fear of those who are afraid of "passing on"; that it's actually just a natural part of the universe's cycle. But I've also been intrigued by the notion that Oblivion is essentially the embodiment of God/the Universe's "desire" or capacity for self-destruction, basically a suicidal complex growing out of control on a cosmic scale. And THAT might potentially be the "meta" explanation for the common threads of corruption and entropy that can be found across the various gamelines.

                    I should also mention that I'm not at all opposed to your bringing the "Lotus" products into this. Understanding many of the criticisms directed at them, I'm nonetheless too attached to their place in the canon to be rid of them, though I'm all for considerable tuning-up. I similarly realized that I forgot to include discussion of Apophis from Mummy in here! I find it interesting in particular because it can represent a potential "connecting point" between the Wyrm and Oblivion.

                    To talk about Multi-Resonance Layered Reality for a moment, I must say that I haven't read your posts about it in detail for some time, but I do remember it being enjoyable and likely influential on some of my own thoughts about WoD cosmology. However, if I recall correctly, the outcome of the theory is that the various gamelines of WoD have a wee bit of "cosmological distance" between them, correct? Cainites do not exist in the same 'universe' as Garou, but in a parallel universe with Lupines; Garou exist in a parallel universe with Leeches, not Kindred. Actions in the Kindred Universe will have effects on the Garou Universe, and vice versa, but there are no direct interactions between the two as a rule. It's an elegant theory for explaining the inconsistencies of the WoD canon, but ultimately not my preferred method, assuming I understand correctly

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                    • #25
                      My reading of layered reality is that multiple versions of the past can be true simultaneously, because at the beginning of time - before the cosmos settled into concrete laws/consensus reality - metaphors and symbolism could be literally true.

                      This is how it's possible for it to be true that human life emerged on Earth trillions of years after the Big Bang, and at the same time on the sixth day after "let there be light."

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                      • #26
                        Its still interesting though that this multi-layered reality thing from D:TF can be espoused from the Fallen narratives, but as far as I know none of them even know about any of the Umbras. They don't even know about the Low Umbra where they supposedly was housed "under" Oblivion. I only semi-accepted as a tool just to stomach the cosmology inconsistencies (because for the most part everything was on-track as each new line came about, but DTF put a wrench in that) found in this game series. At its base level in out-of-character reality it was simply invented just so the whole Book of Genesis could be shoehorned into oWoD by the people who made DTF.


                        Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Reasor View Post
                          My reading of layered reality is that multiple versions of the past can be true simultaneously, because at the beginning of time - before the cosmos settled into concrete laws/consensus reality - metaphors and symbolism could be literally true.

                          This is how it's possible for it to be true that human life emerged on Earth trillions of years after the Big Bang, and at the same time on the sixth day after "let there be light."
                          To some extent, that's my position precisely, that multiple cosmologies and background myths can be equally "true" to the extent that they are all rooted in times when Reality was much more fluid, and they could exist without contradicting each other. But I enjoy taking the wind out of the Abrahamic perspective a bit by directly challenging the notion that God is really the be-all-end-all, along with the teleological notions that tend to get tied up in it when God is actually depicted as the supreme creator of Reality. I'd rather push "Let there be light" to a more metaphorical "light" within Humanity, for example, than truly being the Light at the Beginning of Everything.

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                          • #28
                            I certainly agree that the comparison between Entropy and Corruption is not 1:1 as corruption and taint can appear everywhere and does to a certain extent but that in WoD the force of entropy in particular has been corrupted, at least partially, causing reality to fall out of a stable homeostasis and towards the risk of systems collapse sliding into non-existence.

                            The force of cosmic entropy, the Wyrm, and Oblivion are all natural parts of the cycle of existence; our current issue is that corruption has entered into them and has festered, leading these forces to pursue the dissolution of reality. We can see this in the Nephandi with their ruined avatars, the banes of the Fallen Wyrm, and the expansion of angst and specters to feed the maw of Oblivion.

                            I agree that demons should likely be more closely associated conceptually with corruption and taint but the concepts cannot entirely de disassociated with entropy either, even though corruption need not bring about immediate dissolution but can father cause issues to spread and fester to cause greater spiritual harm.

                            As far as Multi-Resonance Layered Reality I still disagree with the suggestion that is a shoehorn of DtF. It dovetails nicely with the consensual reality of Mage and the use of differing perspectives and approaches to reality shaped by them has been coveted in every game line.

                            As for the idea that every game line exists within its own parallel universe, I think that’s certainly valid but it’s not how I personally interpret things. I agree that it’s presence as a possibility may have been intentional and it definitely allows for easier invocation of Rule 0 which makes it inherently valuable but that’s not the case I make.

                            In my opinion, Multi-Resonance Layered Reality does refer to the nature of the World of Darkness’ meta-cosmology but it is not as it once was. In the Beginning the world was a harmonious symphony where every level and aspect of reality coexisted separately but in unison. However after The Fall, the end of the Golden Age, reality began to collapse upon itself under the weight of its sudden corruption and imperfection.

                            We still see the layers today reflected in the layers of the umbra and in the capacity for paradigm to shape the spiritual and material worlds, but the layers of reality have become so close to each other as to be practically in unison. One who knows how can navigate any level of reality and they are in constant contact with one another, still serving their original purposes as best they can while still reflecting humanity and the material world, the seat of every ephemeral impetus.

                            There’s enough vaguery within the abstracted concepts that the Multi-Resonance Layered Reality can be broken down to imo that it can be successfully interpreted through a great deal of paradigms. It can be related to Abrahamic theology, scientific understanding, philosophical rhetoric, Hindu theology, or whatever framework one might like to apply to it.

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                            • #29
                              Gryffon15

                              I can definitely agree that "Corruption" of Entropy does tend to be used, in some form, as the biggest "problem of evil" in most of the World of Darkness gamelines. And I should probably concede that you're correct about most depictions of what we would describe as "demonic" being attributed to it as well; Banes, Oblivion, Nephandi, Torment.

                              My concern is that we have examples of what I'm referring to as "corruption" or "taint" in non-Entropic forces, which is where that term maybe demonstrates its limits/failings because, as you note, is does carry with it connotations of entropy. The Weaver/Stasis is arguably just as much a problem in Werewolf and Mage as the Wyrm/Entropy; I know less about Changeling, but I think Banality/"Winter" is depicted more as their end-of-the-world threat than the Fomorians/Thallain, who I would also agree aren't really "Entropic" in nature either.

                              But again, that leads back to the more nihilist streak which leads me to question whether these actually ARE breakdowns, or are perfectly natural expressions of these forces/systems in action, that are labeled as "unnatural" by Garou or Mages based on their own perspective of what is "right," biased heavily by their own wants and needs? Buying into the idea that "Corrupted Entropy is a problem across World of Darkness gamelines" implicitly buys into the perspective of those gamelines that present it as such, rather than questioning whether or not they all just have similar reasons for viewing a force of nature that endangers their way of life as "the bad guy." Like farmers and wolves, but cosmic.

                              To go back to Multi-Resonance Layered Reality, if having all of the gamelines mashed together in one messy universe by the modern era/"End Times" is possible, then I am a wholehearted proponent, and a variation of it is likely in play in my own canon lol

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                              • #30
                                That is an entirely fair point and I didn’t intend to dismiss non-entropic forms of corruption with my point (my apologies if it came off that way) but the narrative focus trends towards corrupted entropy.

                                You’re right though that there certainly are forms of non-entropic corruption and I entirely agree they deserve more narrative attention then they have past received, as the current state of the World of Darkness is not solely the fault of the Fallen Wyrm & co.

                                The corruption of stasis is also shown in many game lines to be a concern just as large if not larger then entropy, as corrupted stasis feeds into corrupted entropy while attempting to generate its goal of total stasis. We see this with the nature of vampires entirely, the Fallen Weaver of the Changing Breeds, the worst excesses of many Awakened (particularly within the Technocracy), the suffering caused by Banality in Changeling, and arguably in other places as well. Even in places where stasis is being acted for positively, maintaining the status quo while neglecting to address the issue of corrupt entropy indirectly facilitates corrupt entropy’s end goal.

                                Creation, Preservation, or Destruction without Wisdom or Balance can easily become part of the problem and be referred to as as fallen state or state of corruption. While corrupted entropy gets the most press, corrupted stasis does just as much harm and perhaps more if one accounts for its facilitation of corrupted entropy. Corrupted creation also leads to issues with unhealthy mutations and chaotic lashing outs, but I feel the reason this tends to be overlooked is two fold. First, the creative/dynamic element is generally portrayed as particularly amoral, even amongst other cosmic forces. It doesn’t care about consequence, only creation, and there’s nothing inherently wrong with that because that’s what it’s meant to do. Preservation & Destruction were meant to react to what Creation did and preserve the Balance and their failures to do so is the cause of corruption. Similarly Creation is generally portrayed as less able to actively attack its opposing forces as the others are, its lashing out being generally portrayed as either lashing out in vengeance/defense or an unthinking response to the conditions which the others have created. The Fallen Wyld is part of the problem but apparently does not have the capabilities to make itself as much of a problem as the Fallen Weaver or Fallen Wyrm.

                                I also agree that subjectivity and unrealizable narration should always be taken into account and that corruption, infernalism, and the like are easy things to scapegoat; but I don’t think that invalidates the ultimate point. The Golden Age of the World of Darkness is generally always shown as a time of cosmic homeostasis with the forces of Creation, Preservation, and Destruction maintaining Existence through their balance. Problems arise when these cosmic forces are no longer in balance and in times thee problems fester and drive us towards the possibility of utter systems collapse, which agents of the problem (i.e. corruption) facilitate, intentionally or unintentionally.

                                I do think using Multi-Resonance Layered Reality is possible and that’s what I use it as the status quo for my uses of the WoD setting but like all canon it isn’t important or useful for every game and as always the Golden Rule shall be ever supreme at our tables.

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